Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft V3 - The Argent Tournament is GETTING IN HERE *Uhuhuhuh* - Games

I won't actually quit Hearthstone, that is kinda ridiculous of me to say, but it still doesn't give me a good vibe. Good thing Arena exists...

Here is an example of how power creep is bad and should be avoided: You bought 100 classic packs near launch, and built a pretty strong collection of solid cards from the classic set. You know, good cards that are actually played. You stop playing hearthstone for a good year or two. Coming back, if all of your collection is simply outclasses by cards in the new set, then that is bad power creep. You have to then buy/dust/gold new cards to stay competitive. That is bad power creep because it invalidates old [I]actually played[/I] cards that at one point held the standard for a quality valuable card you would want to play in X, Y or Z situation. What isn't bad power creep is releasing new cards that are better versions of previously worthless, unplayable cards. You are literally buffing cards that need buffed, but doing it in a traditional TCG manner vs a video game manner. You aren't invalidating the playable cards in the classic set by doing this. A classic deck that is very strong then can still be very strong now. Hell some of the best top tier cards in the game are still in the classic set, and likely will continue to be (depending on the meta) after TGT.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460191]lmao what it being online changes literally nothing[/QUOTE] well with magic, if you're playing it you've invested money in physical copies of cards that can't be altered or rebalanced in any way, so all you can do if you don't like change is either buy the better cards or stop playing altogether and lose that investment hs is free to play, you only lose something if you spent real cash on the adventures or packs, but if you don't like any changes you can also complain because the biggest, most obvious advantage of it being digital is that you can easily balance bad/overpowered cards and yet they're not doing it, which i guess might frustrate a lot of people i'm not saying hearthstone is going to die or anything but i can see some semblance of logic there

It's all nice and fun but you can LITERALLY JUST BUFF THE CARDS. Especially when some of the cards were fricking changing weekly during the beta. Just slap a tribe on the old cards to buff them, give them a deathrattle, joust, inspire, whatever the fuck new expansion will bring. It's not Fricking Magic The Gathering, it's a [I]video game[/I]. [B]Treat it like one.[/B]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460293]works for magic, would work for hearthstone also lets them pay less to design new cards as new expansions would have reprints with new art[/QUOTE] Well yeah it would work, but Hearthstone doesn't need to work with the same limitations MTG does. If a card is too weak or too strong they don't have to phase it out and replace it with a new one, they can just buff it or nerf it.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460350]the problem with rebalancing existing cards is a: blizzard makes less money on selling cards if people can continually use the same cards, b: the game will become almost entirely sleeper meta, c: cards in new expansions will largely be ignored by existing players if there is no direct upgrade/perceived upgrade d: if you expect statlines to never change then you have to expect new mechanics to improve the cards, which still falls under power creep (that 5/4 druid card)[/QUOTE] You can offer people new mechanics, new variations, new effects with each expansion. Just look at how few of the cards in TGT have literally nothing on them. Offer people variety, instead of abandoning the old cards just so you can sell people the better versions later down the line. Hearthstone has much more options for new mechanics and effects than MTG ever did thanks to it being a video game. You can make it work, just get a balancing team.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460390]its not a limitation, its literally a business strategy it makes them money the idea is to allow new players an easy in, look at how magic does it with tutorial decks that are objectively ass but they are free, you bring people in and give them the opportunity to earn cards for free/cheap out of relatively new sets and you give those that spend money the ability to get cards several times larger its literally the fundamental pillar that card games base themselves on[/QUOTE] It's also why I never got into TCG. And many of the people playing HS as well.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460390]its not a limitation, its literally a business strategy it makes them money the idea is to allow new players an easy in, look at how magic does it with tutorial decks that are objectively ass but they are free, you bring people in and give them the opportunity to earn cards for free/cheap out of relatively new sets and you give those that spend money the ability to get cards several times larger its literally the fundamental pillar that card games base themselves on[/QUOTE] Well except that currently all the strictly worse cards are basics, and their better counterparts are commons and a legendary so I'm not really seeing the benefit for new players here.

[QUOTE=KorJax;48460240]Serious honest question time Why is power creep into a minion that is slightly more playable than an unplayable card (but still is pretty unplayably bad) a big deal, at all? I want to know an honest logical answer why something like this is so bad that you are willing to quit hearthstone over it. Coming from someone who's experienced much worse power creep than this in a game where you literally -have- to buy more hard copies of cards to stay competitive, this is hardly worth raising an eye over. I'm talking a game where the power creep goes from being balanced/good to OP insane "you can't win at all unless you have these expensive new cards in your deck". Hearthstone is not even close to hitting that, and making Magma Rager have one more health in a new card is never going to cause a situation where everyone is running only broken OP baseline strong cards that leave everything in the classic set in the dust. If the worry is that this sets a precedent of just having OP broken shit that invalidates old sets completely, then lets cross that bridge when we get there. Because that certainly hasn't happened yet and still isn't going to happen with "buffed magma rager"[/QUOTE] Because there's absolutely no reason outside of money grubbing to print the 2 upgrades. It doesn't matter if the cards aren't run. In fact, the 2 upgrades most likely aren't going to be run either. It's just that it's 10 times easier to buff unused free cards than to make new cards that are straight up better. It's a digital game, you change 2 numbers. It will also make 2 starting set cards not absolutely horrible and make new players have a slightly easier time. They made a conscious decision to take the hard route and print the new cards in a new expansion that you have to buy packs of or craft. And that leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. [editline]qwe[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460350]the problem with rebalancing existing cards is d: if you expect statlines to never change then you have to expect new mechanics to improve the cards, which still falls under power creep (that 5/4 druid card) [/quote] That's a class card vs a neutral card [QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460350] if you want expansions to take fucking ages to come out then sure expect them to rebalance cards, but then EVERY CARD THAT COMES OUT has to be tested that much more, then other cards have to be rebalanced that much more, so on so forth its literally going to mean it takes more time for blizzard to do anything[/QUOTE] There is nothing to test in this case. They already tested a 5/2 for 3 and a 5/4 taunt for 4 when they made the new cards. [editline]qwe[/editline] [QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460432]"you change 2 numbers" and then vigorously test that change against every card over the period of several months per card[/QUOTE] See above [editline]qwe[/editline] [QUOTE=Kljunas;48460466]To be fair testing and balancing is what requires work. Cropping some existing artwork and pasting it onto a new card isn't the hard part.[/QUOTE] See above

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460418]so add new basic cards[/QUOTE] Yeah this is what I'm saying. They should've put those two new cards in the basic set, which is virtually the same as buffing the old cards.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460418]why would you play a TCG and expect it to not be like a TCG [editline]15th August 2015[/editline] so add new basic cards[/QUOTE] Because I expected it to be different from physical TCG games. Because at the start, [B]it was much easier to get into than a traditional TCG.[/B] That's clearly changing though.

[QUOTE=NotAName;48460423]It's just that it's 10 times easier to buff unused free cards than to make new cards that are straight up better. It's a digital game, you change 2 numbers.[/QUOTE] To be fair testing and balancing is what requires work. Cropping some existing artwork and pasting it onto a new card isn't the hard part.

Yeah, they can't balance cards, because then they'd need to make sure they're balanced.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460492]it was much easier to get into than a traditional tcg because it was new and the power creep hadnt happened yet thats it its not that its digital (though that helps) but because its LITERALLY A NEW GAME WITH LESS CARDS[/QUOTE] I expected them to balance it regularly like a video game. Not repeat the same shit that happens in most TCGs with them simply banning cards from play and re-releasing old cards with buffed stats.

[QUOTE=AbeX300;48460292]I won't actually quit Hearthstone, that is kinda ridiculous of me to say, but it still doesn't give me a good vibe. Good thing Arena exists...[/QUOTE] Too bad Arena is the emotional equivalent of a never ending series of blue shells 10 feet from the finish line.

[QUOTE=Damjen;48460508]I expected them to balance it regularly like a video game. Not repeat the same shit that happens in most TCGs with them simply banning cards from play and re-releasing old cards with buffed stats.[/QUOTE] [i]But muh tradition[/i]

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460516]or or if you had understood my previous posts and read them they could now think about this add new cards to the free set new players get like other TCGs thus getting around the issue you have of the game being hard to start[/QUOTE] It's Blizzard, half of their playerbase has to jump the ship before they [URL="http://www.pcgamer.com/older-world-of-warcraft-expansion-content-now-free-with-iron-tide-update/"]really start helping new people get into their games.[/URL] And that still doesn't change the problem with re-releasing the old cards when you can simply buff them.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460516]or or if you had understood my previous posts and read them they could now think about this add new cards to the free set new players get like other TCGs thus getting around the issue you have of the game being hard to start[/QUOTE] Or you make new basic cards and also buff bad cards instead of releasing a straight upgrade. I didn't have a problem with them not buffing Magma Rager before, because of the reasons you posted above. I have a problem with this because they DID spend time to test and deduced that Magma Rager would not break the game as a 5/2, but then made it a new card instead.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460516]or or if you had understood my previous posts and read them they could now think about this add new cards to the free set new players get like other TCGs thus getting around the issue you have of the game being hard to start[/QUOTE] yes this is essentially the same as buffing cards if blizzard put those cards in the basic set no one would have complained but they didn't

[QUOTE=MrFlashcat;48458195]that 2/1 taunt though what an insane card!!![/QUOTE] While it's fucked if it gets pinged, it does seem like a more damaging chump by default in comparison to Goldshire Footman. That said Goldshire can become a 3/4 if you have Hobgoblin.

To change the topic from us arguing in circles, have some card clarifications from Hearthpwn [QUOTE][B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22387-void-crusher"]Void Crusher[/URL][/B] Void Crusher can destroy itself. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22359-dalaran-aspirant"]Dalaran Aspirant[/URL][/B] The Spell Power gain does indeed stack. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22372-sideshow-spelleater"]Sideshow Spelleater[/URL][/B] This also copies non-base Hero Powers such as DIE, INSECT! If your opponent has changed the damage or mana cost on their current Hero Power, you would not receive these benefits. You will keep the stolen Hero Power for the duration of the match. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22276-justicar-trueheart"]Justicar Trueheart[/URL][/B] If you steal a base Hero Power, this card will upgrade it. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22364-bear-trap"]Bear Trap[/URL][/B] The Ironfur Grizzly is created after you attack into the opponent, thus, does not block your attack. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22349-the-mistcaller"]The Mistcaller[/URL][/B] Mistcaller buffs minions, not cards created by minions. [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22367-recruiter"]Recruiter[/URL][/B] Summons [URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/21-squire"]Squire.[/URL] [B][URL="http://www.hearthpwn.com/cards/22397-beneath-the-grounds"]Beneath the Grounds[/URL][/B] Summoned Ambush cards are 'summon a 4/4 Nerubian for your opponent. Draw a card'.[/QUOTE] Void Crusher confirmed as "no one will pick it, even in arena" tier

Maybe Hearthstone needs a Public Test Server so they can actually try balance changes.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460602]because we arent anywhere near the point where its absolutely required[/QUOTE] Why not continuously update the basic set instead of waiting until it's absolutely required? Wouldn't it make sense to actively try to keep the basic set's power level (relative to expert cards) the same as it was on release, rather than waiting for it to drop low enough?

[QUOTE=Damjen;48460695]To change the topic from us arguing in circles, have some card clarifications from Hearthpwn Void Crusher confirmed as "no one will pick it, even in arena" tier[/QUOTE] Most of these seem pretty obvious, other than Justicar and Beneath the Grounds, I don't see how you could get confused about them.

[QUOTE=Maximo13;48460808]Most of these seem pretty obvious, other than Justicar and Beneath the Grounds, I don't see how you could get confused about them.[/QUOTE] It's Blizzard and it's Hearthstone, just because it seem obvious doesn't mean it is obvious. Just ask Abe about Jaraxxus interactions (or rather, lack of them).

Everyone's getting all bent out of shape about 2 cards (that nobody will play) that are straight upgrades of cards nobody plays, and I'm just sitting here on the hype train for the other 130 fucking awesome cards.

Got off to a bad start in brawl this week, but then a Warlock played Voidcaller, I used Mind Vision and got his Doomguard, he played Dancing Swords, and the next turn I draw Shadow Madness.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48460984]hey back to this did you just fuck up reading the card or is there a source to this cos what u said is literally not said at all on the card[/QUOTE] I fucked up the explanation a little. The card destroys every minion on the board except for highest attack minion(s) on your side and the highest attack minion(s) on opponent's side of the board.

Paladin's new board clear is basically brawl + lightbomb It's neat as fuck, and makes it so Eadric looks a LOT better.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48461083]do you have a source to that because thats not what the card says are you just pulling this shit out of your ass lol[/QUOTE] "Destroy all minions except each player's highest Attack minion" Seems pretty clear that if you have more than one minion with, say, 4 attack, and everything else is 3 and less, you are left with those 4 attack minions. Same for opponent.