The Elder Scrolls Megathread XV: A Song of Ice and Draugr - Games

Really my main problem is that they removed attributes [editline].[/editline] I don't know about you guys but I also very much enjoy spending time creating my character and assigning traits/stats like in Morrowind.

There are virtually no tangible choices in any TES game. As I walk around like a badass in Morrowind, head of some guilds, the NPCs still complain "make it quick outlander" or the classic "I haven't much time" while they walk around all day doing exactly nothing. In Skyrim there are more choices, but in fact it doesn't really matter what you choose. Even the biggest choice, Stormcloaks or Imperials doesn't matter, the quest all end the same. Only some different locations and some NPCs get replaced but the world stays the same with Nazeem talking shit about the cloud district. In Oblivion there were fewer choices, but Oblivion has some great recognition of your exploits and good and bad deeds. Guards comment on you, like "It's the hero of Kvatch", adoring you like a hero. Or when you're a member of the Thieves guild, or more generally just have a high infamy compared to fame, the potato head guards frown upon you (literaly) and tell you to "Go away".

[QUOTE=Altimor;42180466]In Skyrim you can still die if you screw up (on higher difficulties at least) with a good character as opposed to Morrowind where's it's character stat dice rolls Player skills matters little when your damage output is decided by character stats and the RNG[/QUOTE] Player stats playing a large role is what helps you feel like you're improving when you level up. Morrowind had the RNG, but you could still affect it. You could buff yourself with potions, spells, or scrolls to increase your hit chance. Even basic stuff like making sure to keep your stamina bar full made a lot of difference. The result is that you have to think more about combat. Once again, how does removing all this in favor of "you always hit and only have a handful of weapon types" not equate to dumbing down the game? Morrowind was basically realtime DnD, which isn't the best setup, but it was replaced with the clunky mess that is Oblivion and Skyrim combat. The levelling system was much nicer, you actually felt like you were getting stronger rather than having the game world immediately follow suit and get tougher or outright sabotage anyone that didn't obsessively min-max in the case of oblivion. [editline]13th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=153x;42180534]Really my main problem is that they removed attributes [editline].[/editline] I don't know about you guys but I also very much enjoy spending time creating my character and assigning traits/stats like in Morrowind.[/QUOTE] Rolling characters in RPGs is tons of fun. I could spend tons of time in the Baldur's Gate character creator just sifting through various classes, races, and weapon proficiencies to make a character. I like Skyrim, but they killed that aspect of it. You basically just pick a race and get dumped on the chopping block.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;42180576]Player stats playing a large role is what helps you feel like you're improving when you level up. Morrowind had the RNG, but you could still affect it. You could buff yourself with potions, spells, or scrolls to increase your hit chance. Even basic stuff like making sure to keep your stamina bar full made a lot of difference. The result is that you have to think more about combat. Once again, how does removing all this in favor of "you always hit and only have a handful of weapon types" not equate to dumbing down the game? Morrowind was basically realtime DnD, which isn't the best setup, but it was replaced with the clunky mess that is Oblivion and Skyrim combat. The levelling system was much nicer, you actually felt like you were getting stronger rather than having the game world immediately follow suit and get tougher or outright sabotage anyone that didn't obsessively min-max in the case of oblivion. [editline]13th September 2013[/editline] Rolling characters in RPGs is tons of fun. I could spend tons of time in the Baldur's Gate character creator just sifting through various classes, races, and weapon proficiencies to make a character. I like Skyrim, but they killed that aspect of it. You basically just pick a race and get dumped on the chopping block.[/QUOTE] You're supporting my point though You aren't improving, your character is.

[QUOTE=153x;42180534]Really my main problem is that they removed attributes [editline].[/editline] I don't know about you guys but I also very much enjoy spending time creating my character and assigning traits/stats like in Morrowind.[/QUOTE] Third era attributes and CCO. I also have a mod that automatically unlocks perks. The experience feels way better, but not entirely like an RPG just yet.

[QUOTE=Altimor;42180638]You're supporting my point though You aren't improving, your character is.[/QUOTE] That's kind of the point of an RPG. And again, I fail to see how ditching various stats and the relevance of others isn't dumbing down the game. Ideally, stats should matter. Player skill should matter too. Both mattered in Morrowind. The combat itself was up to a diceroll, but you could prepare for the combat to maximize the odds in your favor. In Skyrim there's no prep for combat beyond "do I have health/magicka potions". Depth is gone too. Your gear will never break. You can't make spells anymore. Weapon selection has been drastically reduced. Attributes are gone, spell effects are gone. Disposition is technically still there, but has been gutted to the point where it's not even noticeable. Everyone is the same and everyone can do anything. Who you are in the context of this world is meaningless.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;42180764]That's kind of the point of an RPG. And again, I fail to see how ditching various stats and the relevance of others isn't dumbing down the game. Ideally, stats should matter. Player skill should matter too. Both mattered in Morrowind. The combat itself was up to a diceroll, but you could prepare for the combat to maximize the odds in your favor. In Skyrim there's no prep for combat beyond "do I have health/magicka potions". Depth is gone too. Your gear will never break. You can't make spells anymore. Weapon selection has been drastically reduced. Attributes are gone, spell effects are gone. Disposition is technically still there, but has been gutted to the point where it's not even noticeable. Everyone is the same and everyone can do anything. Who you are in the context of this world is meaningless.[/QUOTE] Spellmaking is an incredibly exploitable and unbalanced idea An RPG doesn't have to completely remove player skill from the combat equation like ye olde TES does, you can have both. Skyrim could easily be improved but it's not dumbed down compared to ye olde TES where stats are all that matter.

Are we really having this discussion again? Every TES megathread since Skyrim was released have been the same thing over and over again.

Let's duel to the death. Argument solved forever.

Fine! Grab this gun, take 5 steps away from your computer, turn around and shoot.

Personally, I think player skill in RPGs means knowing how to plan for combat, manage your equipment/balance your party (if available), not being able to dodge arrows in real time with twitch reflexes. I don't like it if it's too player skill focused combat wise because I'm not roleplaying as myself, my skillset is entirely unrelated to my characters, skills and attributes makes it feel like that character has HIS OWN SKILLS, AS IF HE'S A PERSON IN A WORLD AND NOT ME KNOWING HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;42181196]Personally, I think player skill in RPGs means knowing how to plan for combat, manage your equipment/balance your party (if available), not being able to dodge arrows in real time with twitch reflexes. I don't like it if it's too player skill focused combat wise because I'm not roleplaying as myself, my skillset is entirely unrelated to my characters, skills and attributes makes it feel like that character has HIS OWN SKILLS, AS IF HE'S A PERSON IN A WORLD AND NOT ME KNOWING HOW TO PLAY THE GAME.[/QUOTE] I enjoy giving the middle finger to the skill system, going to high level loot spawns as soon as I start the game and dodging everything so I don't need armor skill.

I should probably mention that I started a new character yesterday after not touching this game for a month while installing a million mods. Miraculously, my game works, except immersive animations and the lag that came with racemenu made my character take an extra couple of hours to create. Anyway, I started the game, quickly realizing that real clouds had some ugly outlines when another object was in the foreground. One of those objects looked strangely like a dragon, which was the first enemy I encountered. I barely made it out alive by running away like a pussy and killing multiple packs of wolves with an iron dagger. Off to a flying start I guess...

[QUOTE=DrasarSalman;42180211]Why would you need a guide on how to play such a dumbed down game. You choose a way to hit things. You hit things using the method you chose. The method levels up so you can hit things more effectively.[/QUOTE] How about designing an interesting play through character? I dont even follow the builds per say, but I can find an interesting play through that I havn't done yet on there. "Hey he uses frost cloak with become ethereal that is pretty smart!" They have interesting combinations, back stories, spell combinations.... it isn't just about some guide you have to follow and it is just a good way to find a new way to play when you've gotten bored of the usual.

[QUOTE=Altimor;42175413]My intention is to be the least fair as humanly possible because I'm on a crap char that's done nothing but raise acrobatics to 100 and kill some cliff racers Are there any spells that can stun him and allow me to melee him? [/QUOTE] Stunning is sort of pointless in this case. Paralysis can do it, but on for X seconds. Damage attribute lets you permanently cripple people. If they have 0 strength and 0 agility they can't hit you easily and they can't move because they are over-encumbered

[QUOTE=1chains1;42181659]How about designing an interesting play through character? I dont even follow the builds per say, but I can find an interesting play through that I havn't done yet on there. "Hey he uses frost cloak with become ethereal that is pretty smart!" They have interesting combinations, back stories, spell combinations.... it isn't just about some guide you have to follow and it is just a good way to find a new way to play when you've gotten bored of the usual.[/QUOTE] That's the sort of thing I'd recommend Path of Exile for, not Skyrim. Except the back story part, if you use a lot of imagination to for example explain how after swimming through freezing water and being bitten by lots of wolves, you managed to escape a dragon.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42181994]Stunning is sort of pointless in this case. Paralysis can do it, but on for X seconds. Damage attribute lets you permanently cripple people. If they have 0 strength and 0 agility they can't hit you easily and they can't move because they are over-encumbered[/QUOTE] I named my drain strength spell "Vehk Rehk"

Skyrim definitely could have used more stats, it's really dumb that they got rid of so many. I don't like to say it was "Dumbed down" but I figured that if they were getting rid of those maybe they would have improved combat as a whole, but it was hardly better than Oblivion's. I mean I still like skyrim and think it was a very fun game, but it kicked away a bunch of traditional TES stuff that it would have benefited from if they had kept it.

It's not that they didn't have stats, but I'm annoyed that they didn't use them. It felt more like skills simply improved something rather than that something being dependent on it.

[QUOTE=DrasarSalman;42182365]That's the sort of thing I'd recommend Path of Exile for, not Skyrim. Except the back story part, if you use a lot of imagination to for example explain how after swimming through freezing water and being bitten by lots of wolves, you managed to escape a dragon.[/QUOTE] Yea man you're totally right, my way of playing skyrim is all wrong what have I been thinking!!!!

Attributes are cool. spells and potions to make you stronger should use attributes. Stuff like skyrim's "increase mellee damage by 20%" or "reduce destruction magika cost by 25%" are just... Shitty. If a potion makes you stronger it should increase your strength. Your strength should help with a number of things. It's broke to have a specific skill increased (such as alchemy) And it'd be rather nice if you could see the effects of attributes more? Like a Novice swordsman with titan strength would be as dangerous as a regular master. He's not going to elegantly counter every move you make and have his steel glide through every vital organ... but he's going to break your arms and send you reeling if you try to block him. I liked some of daggerfall's ideas. Stuff like "magicka regenerates in the light" and "magicka regenerates in the dark" or "phobia of daedra" or "takes damage in holy places" are pretty cool.

Whooooops I got drain attribute and not damage attribute Ok I'm using damage attribute and Vivec isn't stopping or missing me, what's going on EDIT: nvm he just has stats over 100

[QUOTE=Altimor;42182990]I named my drain strength spell "Vehk Rehk"[/QUOTE] Nah, make sure it's damage, not drain. Two different things. Damage = Permanent, Drain = Temporary Damage attribute spells are high-risk against daedra though since they often reflect spells back at you. I don't think vivec does that though [editline]14th September 2013[/editline] Woops, missed your last post Oh well, don't use them on daedra because that's a cancerous risk to take

[t]http://filesmelt.com/dl/vehkrehkt.png[/t] A level 100 god is always a good opponent for your first time using a sword.

[del]So just updated all my lovely mods and now I crash to desktop after the Bethesda logo. Not sure what did it exactly, but I just updated to the new SKSE version 1.6.16.[/del] FIXED: Come to find out, upon installing Even Better Quest Objectives, I accidently enabled all the optional options for mods I didn't have. Thanks BOSS!

[QUOTE=DrasarSalman;42180211]Why would you need a guide on how to play such a dumbed down game. You choose a way to hit things. You hit things using the method you chose. The method levels up so you can hit things more effectively.[/QUOTE] Its like you didn't use the link at all It's a character building guide, not a "walkthrough on how to win" AKA its for roleplaying purposes, arguably the only real way to have a strong experience with the game, not for power-leveling purposes. I.E. pick a fallen hero character building guide where at level 30 you change to evil and act in X sorts of ways. I mean you can make this stuff up yourself yes but its nice to go "Oh that character sounds neat I'll try playing as that next" while browsing a list of character archetypes people have made.

[QUOTE=KorJax;42185716]Its like you didn't use the link at all It's a character building guide, not a "walkthrough on how to win" AKA its for roleplaying purposes, arguably the only real way to have a strong experience with the game, not for power-leveling purposes. I.E. pick a fallen hero character building guide where at level 30 you change to evil and act in X sorts of ways. I mean you can make this stuff up yourself yes but its nice to go "Oh that character sounds neat I'll try playing as that next" while browsing a list of character archetypes people have made.[/QUOTE] I am totally doing the Argonian Vanguard. Sounds really bad ass.

Morrowind's RNG is a pain in the ass I just got slowly killed by a cliff racer by missing all but one swing

I've been beating cliff racers to death with my fists recently, it's very satisfying Clubs and hand to hand in morrowind are actually pretty solid weapon choices, never really gave them the time of day.

[QUOTE=coyote93;42189211]Bah, i think it is time for me to stop playing skyrim.. I have achieved every steam acheivement, i have played the game in 300 hours on steam, and before that i had a pirated copy.. The only thing i do now is to think" what about reinstalling skyrim? that would be awesome" Then i mod it perfectly, lore friendly and super awesome graphics etc.. and when im done with modding, i start the game and just... meeeeh, this i have done before, and this.. The game got nothing more to offer me.. But i have nothing else to play..[/QUOTE] Wow, you're the only person to have ever experienced burnout!