The Elder Scrolls Megathread XV: A Song of Ice and Draugr - Games

[QUOTE=Grimhound;43192962]Character progression in Morrowind and Oblivion sucks. And by that I mean the leveling system. It promotes trying to game the system over playing the game.[/QUOTE] Um, no? In oblivion that is definitely the case, but you've obviously never played morrowind in depth if you think character progression doesn't exist. In skyrim I had to reach level 100 before it felt that I was indefinitely better than everybody else in the game, but by that point there's not really any "higher challenges" to seek out, besides fighting the ebony warrior. Why? because the game carefully micromanages the degree of difficulty and carefully micromanaged what equipment you can have by X level MW has only 2 tiers of level scaling so really how fast or how well you level up is totally irrelevant. You can level up like shit and the game won't punish you for it.

Morrowind has character progression, sure, but it's terrible. The game punishes you REALLY harshly for even picking up a class that doesn't fit your racial passive, and you have to spend the first hour or so of EVERY playthrough you play by mindlessly farming your main skill so you can at least hit shit with it. It ain't fun.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;43192962]Character progression in Morrowind and Oblivion sucks. And by that I mean the leveling system. It promotes trying to game the system over playing the game.[/QUOTE] Breaking the game isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be satisfying to become massively overpowered within the rules of the game. It's also worth mentioning that Morrowind's character progression is massively better than Oblivion's because it actually exists. The world isn't levelled to you, so levelling up will always make you more powerful than you were before. Compare this to Oblivion where unless you pump endurance and a weapon skill, you end up underpowered and are actually rewarded for never levelling at all since you can get the benefits of 100 in a skill without ever levelling up simply by not sleeping. I'd rather have a system that gives me freedom that can be exploited over a game that limits me neurotically for fear of exploits existing.

I could never hate level scaling because I never found the whole "YES NOW I AM SO POWERFUL" feeling all that entertaining. I prefer a constant difficulty over one that ping pongs all over the damn shop.

[QUOTE=dogmachines;43193344]Breaking the game isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be satisfying to become massively overpowered within the rules of the game. It's also worth mentioning that Morrowind's character progression is massively better than Oblivion's because it actually exists. The world isn't levelled to you, so levelling up will always make you more powerful than you were before. Compare this to Oblivion where unless you pump endurance and a weapon skill, you end up underpowered and are actually rewarded for never levelling at all since you can get the benefits of 100 in a skill without ever levelling up simply by not sleeping. I'd rather have a system that gives me freedom that can be exploited over a game that limits me neurotically for fear of exploits existing.[/QUOTE] The problem is, Morrowind allows you to break the game but doesn't allow you to stay within its boundaries and actually do well in a reasonable amount of time. Skyrim possibly has the best scaling of the three games because base enemies scale moderately well to fit your current level so you won't clear out entire bandit hideouts in a matter of seconds for a good portion of the game, but once you are above the highest ranking enemy you will just dominate everyone, which does reward leveling. It's also possible to exploit the mechanics in skyrim pretty well (see how vanilla lets you one-hit people with your bare hands with correct items and how you can deal 5000 damage in a single arrow if you enchant it and craft proper potions). They all have problems though. Morrowind has so little level scaling it often makes things really boring or really hard. Oblivion has too much level scaling to the point where even rats can be an issue and bandits walk around in full glass armor like it's nothing. Skyrim has relatively good level scaling but it doesn't apply to absolutely every enemy in the game so you can clear entire dungeons filled with creatures your level only to meet an enemy ten times your level as the dungeon boss.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193340]Morrowind has character progression, sure, but it's terrible. The game punishes you REALLY harshly for even picking up a class that doesn't fit your racial passive[/QUOTE] If you want the skyrim experience in morrowind, turn the difficult slider to -100. Skyrim didn't have better character progression, it's just an easier game and the player has much higher stats than most of the NPCs in the game world. Save for that point between level 10-20 where the level scaling breaks and you have boss enemies who can instant-finisher you or vaporize you with a single spell.

Bethesda probably realized the combat will inherently and universally suck in all of their games so they didn't even bother making Skyrim hard at all, because seriously who the fuck plays TES and expects challenging, indepth combat mechanics. If you want a game where decisions matter and strategy is rewarded in a fair way (aka in a way that doesn't promote being OP as the only proper way of playing) then play The Witcher 2 or Dark Souls. Morrowind has a lot of qualities but combat/leveling sure as fuck ain't one of them.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43193312]Um, no? In oblivion that is definitely the case, but you've obviously never played morrowind in depth if you think character progression doesn't exist. In skyrim I had to reach level 100 before it felt that I was indefinitely better than everybody else in the game, but by that point there's not really any "higher challenges" to seek out, besides fighting the ebony warrior. Why? because the game carefully micromanages the degree of difficulty and carefully micromanaged what equipment you can have by X level MW has only 2 tiers of level scaling so really how fast or how well you level up is totally irrelevant. You can level up like shit and the game won't punish you for it.[/QUOTE] There are 3 tiers, at least as far as gear drops go. But gear drops are totally irrelevant in MW because you have to go to a grand total of 3 places to get full Daedric armor and a Daedric Dai-katana.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;43192962]Character progression in Morrowind and Oblivion sucks. And by that I mean the leveling system. It promotes trying to game the system over playing the game.[/QUOTE] I cannot agree so much on how stupid oblivion's level up system is. Their leveling system sounds good on paper, but I'm tired of getting only 6 skill points to spend when you can get 15 if you try hard enough

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193401]The problem is, Morrowind allows you to break the game but doesn't allow you to stay within its boundaries and actually do well in a reasonable amount of time. Skyrim possibly has the best scaling of the three games because base enemies scale moderately well to fit your current level so you won't clear out entire bandit hideouts in a matter of seconds for a good portion of the game, but once you are above the highest ranking enemy you will just dominate everyone, which does reward leveling. It's also possible to exploit the mechanics in skyrim pretty well (see how vanilla lets you one-hit people with your bare hands with correct items and how you can deal 5000 damage in a single arrow if you enchant it and craft proper potions). They all have problems though. Morrowind has so little level scaling it often makes things really boring or really hard. Oblivion has too much level scaling to the point where even rats can be an issue and bandits walk around in full glass armor like it's nothing. Skyrim has relatively good level scaling but it doesn't apply to absolutely every enemy in the game so you can clear entire dungeons filled with creatures your level only to meet an enemy ten times your level as the dungeon boss.[/QUOTE] Morrowind's biggest fault is that it's more a P&P RPG than a video game. Skyrim's biggest fault is that it's a joke. In Morrowind I can run into a wall because I just see some asshole in armor and don't realize he can kick my ass until he's kicked my ass thoroughly. I have to carefully manage skill use and progression to maximize my advancement. In Skyrim I can have a more skill-based game, but there's nothing to apply that skill to. Also the entire storyline is shit.

[QUOTE=Grimhound;43193492]Morrowind's biggest fault is that it's more a P&P RPG than a video game. Skyrim's biggest fault is that it's a joke. In Morrowind I can run into a wall because I just see some asshole in armor and don't realize he can kick my ass until he's kicked my ass thoroughly. I have to carefully manage skill use and progression to maximize my advancement. In Skyrim I can have a more skill-based game, but there's nothing to apply that skill to. Also the entire storyline is shit.[/QUOTE] If by skill-based you mean stunlock everything to death with magic or have OP armor for melee then yea

[QUOTE=Altimor;43193538]If by skill-based you mean stunlock everything to death with magic or have OP armor for melee then yea[/QUOTE] By skill-based I mean some motherfucker doesn't just run up on you with a warhammer and cave your skull in with a single strike. You can in theory dodge, parry, and maneuver yourself to take on that challenge. The gear is a separate issue.

So I am having an issue, I decided to do a fresh install of skyrim, where I deleted all my mods and re installed skyrim. The issue is, whenever I launch Skyrim through my skse shortcut on my desktop, the game ctds at the start menu. This is a completely clean install, I downloaded mods but I have not extracted them and put them in their respective files yet so it should be completely vanilla Skyrim barring the skse. Any ideas what could be causing the crash? edit - Fixed it, turned out I had some mods subscribed on the steam page so it was doing some funky shit with them.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193436]If you want a game where decisions matter and strategy is rewarded in a fair way (aka in a way that doesn't promote being OP as the only proper way of playing) then play The Witcher 2 or Dark Souls.[/QUOTE] I've played both and neither of those titles have nailed it, Dark Souls is just hugely difficulty all around, it's like the Polar opposite of skyrim in terms of difficulty. The witcher 1 and 2 have awkward combat mechanics and give the player [URL="http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlotArmor"]plot armor.[/URL] I was thoroughly unimpressed that I was basically stuck playing as a glorified rouge for the entire game and had very limited scope of armor/weapon choices. It's an RPG that is thoroughly lacking in the R and P factors. M&B is still my favorite RPG in terms of how the core skills work. They don't seek to make you better or give you gimmicky abilities, the game simply gives the player more responsive and reliable fighting mechanics to enhance your natural capacities as a player, and you the armor system is not some fucking bullshit, indiscriminate percentile reduction, you still need to use good footwork, have good enemy weapon awareness, and use general good fighting technique in order to amplify the practical effect of your armor. All of that eliminates the need for level scaling since even the most skilled opponents are still only human, not superhuman and both your skills as a user and your skills as a PC are important when playing the game. That strikes me as a functional RPG doctrine.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;43193665] All of that eliminates the need for level scaling since even the most skilled opponents are still only human, not superhuman and both your skills as a user and your skills as a PC are important when playing the game. That strikes me as a functional RPG doctrine.[/QUOTE] Didn't Witcher 2 have something like this though? You can still get killed by regular soldiers or bandits if you don't plan beforehand and whatnot. I know that later in the game you face more non-humans, but still.

I didn't say RPG, I said a game in general. The Witcher is a RPG in the fact that it allows you to build your characters in relatively different ways, but it is (as most good RPGs are) more restricted than bethesda RPGs, which are rather unique because of the way they pretty much let you do whatever the fuck you want rather than essentially offer you different play-styles within a certain sphere of gameplay. And to be honest, Bethesda games from a RPG standpoint are abysmal. Because of the huge range of stuff you can do, some things are inherently underpowered and the rule of dominant strategy means that from a pure gameplay standpoint you are going to always do the same thing if you want to be optimal (see how fallout 3 has unarmed combat but it's absolute shit compared to guns or even melee weapons). You simply cannot have such a huge range of gameplay possibilities and have all of them be good, which is why in any TES games melee is bland, magic is tedious and stealth is retarded.

[QUOTE=zeldar;43193752]Didn't Witcher 2 have something like this though? You can still get killed by regular soldiers or bandits if you don't plan beforehand and whatnot. I know that later in the game you face more non-humans, but still.[/QUOTE] Depends on what game mode, the game got substantially easier as you went on, but yes, on the dark mode or whatever you'd get your ass handed to you, you'd literally need to use every little thing given to you.

[QUOTE=zeldar;43193752]Didn't Witcher 2 have something like this though? You can still get killed by regular soldiers or bandits if you don't plan beforehand and whatnot. I know that later in the game you face more non-humans, but still.[/QUOTE] The Witcher starts you off with every single spell known and the difference in fights is made by how well you plan ahead, not by your gear. Of course getting better weaponry, armor and potions will help but essentially the game doesn't start you off with just the ability to bash something to death with a stick and finishes with a spell that can burn everyone on the map at once with no cost, it gives you all the tools you need right away and lets you improve your damage and damage resistance as it goes to not get your ass kicked too much.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193886]And to be honest, Bethesda games from a RPG standpoint are abysmal. Because of the huge range of stuff you can do, some things are inherently underpowered and the rule of dominant strategy means that from a pure gameplay standpoint you are going to always do the same thing if you want to be optimal[/QUOTE] I think you just made that rule up

I had fun with melee and magic in Oblivion.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193886]And to be honest, Bethesda games from a RPG standpoint are abysmal. Because of the huge range of stuff you can do, some things are inherently underpowered and the rule of dominant strategy means that from a pure gameplay standpoint you are going to always do the same thing if you want to be optimal (see how fallout 3 has unarmed combat but it's absolute shit compared to guns or even melee weapons). You simply cannot have such a huge range of gameplay possibilities and have all of them be good, which is why in any TES games melee is bland, magic is tedious and stealth is retarded.[/QUOTE] These are all individual failings on bethesda part, not core issues with the concepts of asymmetric equality in an an open-world RPG franchise.

Not really fair to make a showpiece out of the Witcher's tightly wound, controlled and narrative-assisted environment vs an open sandbox. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;43193886] And to be honest, Bethesda games from a RPG standpoint are abysmal. Because of the huge range of stuff you can do, some things are inherently underpowered and the rule of dominant strategy means that from a pure gameplay standpoint you are going to always do the same thing if you want to be optimal (see how fallout 3 has unarmed combat but it's absolute shit compared to guns or even melee weapons). You simply cannot have such a huge range of gameplay possibilities and have all of them be good, which is why in any TES games melee is bland, magic is tedious and stealth is retarded.[/QUOTE] Also it really just sounds like you're being tight-assed about always running the mathematically optimal formula for beating the game and raising the obvious point that you can't roleplay that way I play TES because you get to be a lizard or nord or elf and everything's got a backstory and it's cool and shit.

^ Aye, he's right. I just like to swing a sword at things, and I like the general setting and freedom Skyrim offers. I'm a bit of a newbie with RPGs and I think it's what Bethasda aimed for with this game. Something accessible and fun, with tons of options to play the game as you like. And if there's something you don't like, download the creationkit and change some shit.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;43194112]Not really fair to make a showpiece out of the Witcher's tightly wound, controlled and narrative-assisted environment vs an open sandbox. [editline]15th December 2013[/editline] Also it really just sounds like you're being tight-assed about always running the mathematically optimal formula for beating the game and raising the obvious point that you can't roleplay that way I play TES because you get to be a lizard or nord or elf and everything's got a backstory and it's cool and shit.[/QUOTE] I shouldn't have to gimp myself to enjoy the gameplay

[QUOTE=Kommodore;43193953]I think you just made that rule up[/QUOTE] Dominant strategy is something that works in every game. From a purely gameplay standpoint, if there is a mechanic that works better than anything else then it's what most people will use. Its polar opposite is roleplaying in which you favor immersion and logic over gameplay, which is clearly what the TES is favoring. However if you want to play the game as an actual game with challenge and gameplay then you're going to find yourself doing the same thing over and over and over again.

What is that one Skyrim.ini command that has your favorite items appear on your character? I remember that there was post about it somewhere, but I couldn't find it.

bDisableGearedUp=1 It's extremely buggy though and I would recommend sheathing your weapon every time you change weapons or do an action.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;43192353]Are you on PC ? If you are open the console and enter "setstage CQSiegeObj 1" without brackets and it should force the quest to start.[/QUOTE] Nothing happens exept that I get "LocAliasIsLocation >> 0.00" twice on the console.

So in Arena I decided to comb through the rumor mill until I got news on where the Oghma Infinium was. Just finished going through the 4-level dungeon that contained the map as to where the dungeon that actually does contain the artifact is. It seems like every quest is like this. "Go to dungeon, find item that will help you find the dungeon where the item you actually want is kept, then go there and get it". Whatevs, I get good money just looting the damn places and selling them in towns, which helps for funding for supplies to loot the next dungeon. Figuring out that blue items = magic was a great boon when I could get them identified and therefore sell them at a higher price. It also helped when I found that I had a Mark Of Healing (healing items is probably my greatest expense at the moment, with this I save a few gold). After I get and use the Oghma Infinium, I don't know which artifact I should go after next, if any. You can only have one at a time (I'm assuming that using the Oghma Infinium will make it disappear), so I want to make sure that the one I get is the right one. I know about the exploit that can help you get more than one artifact, but I'm going to wait until I figure out just which artifacts I want (if any) before deciding if it'll be needed. More news on Jaynis The Free's adventures through The Arena will be coming your way soon.

All groan at Ulfric. He is the High King. He's the best Bethesda came up with when making this thing. We're the people who care about this franchise. With every new entry, a little piece of us dies.