The Elder Scrolls Megathread XV: A Song of Ice and Draugr - Games

[QUOTE=imadaman;43915075]I have no clue. Actually, I think it's CoDA now. from Tomorrowind Today again [editline]15th February 2014[/editline] Oh, it's C0DA, not CoDA. silly font on the page fooled me. [editline]15th February 2014[/editline] I don't know.[/QUOTE] Do you think it's best, for everybody, if we just pretend C0DA doesn't exist? Because this is going to change a lot of our lore discussions around here.

I feel this needs to be said now ALL OF THE M16s AND FIDDY CENTS AND ANIME GIRLS ARE NOW CANON AND LORE FRIENDLY. BUT ARE ALSO NON-CANON.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43915337]Do you think it's best, for everybody, if we just pretend C0DA doesn't exist? Because this is going to change a lot of our lore discussions around here.[/QUOTE] I don't see how it would. It just forces people to be more accurate in their descriptions and sources. [editline]15th February 2014[/editline] Which is not a bad thing.

Oh God... The Nexus is now canon... May Vehk have mercy on our souls.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/5IWkjW6.png[/img] [editline]15th February 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=woolio1;43915409]Oh God... The Nexus is now canon... May Vehk have mercy on our souls.[/QUOTE] You think Nexus as canon? Ew.

[QUOTE=imadaman;43915437][img]http://i.imgur.com/5IWkjW6.png[/img] [editline]15th February 2014[/editline] You think Nexus as canon? Ew.[/QUOTE] I don't think it, it just objectively is. And isn't. Because canon's all wibbly now.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43915409]Oh God... The Nexus is now canon... May Vehk have mercy on our souls.[/QUOTE] On [I][U]their[/U][/I] souls.

[quote] Star Wars [/quote] Considering Leland Chee is both autistic and known for the ability to argue [I]George Lucas[/I] to a standstill on what is canon, I'd say Mr. Kirkbride has more than met his match.

What's the fanfiction everyone keeps posting and why does it try to claim it has any authority over canon :v: Is it from that kirkbride guy who used to be a writer for bethesda?

[QUOTE=Elspin;43915687]What's the fanfiction everyone keeps posting and why does it try to claim it has any authority over canon :v: Is it from that kirkbride guy who used to be a writer for bethesda?[/QUOTE] Is still a writer for Bethesda, on contract. He doesn't work there, but his stuff is still valid. Even moreso now, since he somehow got Bethesda to agree on the abolishing of a standard canon. Also, the fact that he built the universe means quite a bit, even if the games don't follow the same universe. It's still his story, he can do with it what he wants. Morrowind was his, and Oblivion, and everything he's written after, including some bits of Skyrim. It's all his universe, his characters, his words. Bethesda-sanctioned or not, it doesn't change that. That's why they tried to distance Skyrim from everything Kirkbride wrote. And still yet, they added the Thalmor, and the Third Aldmeri Dominion, and the White-Gold Concordat, and shouting at people. (You're actually kind of missing the point of the whole concept...)

[QUOTE=Elspin;43915687]What's the fanfiction everyone keeps posting and why does it try to claim it has any authority over canon :v: Is it from that kirkbride guy who used to be a writer for bethesda?[/QUOTE] [img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12875849/reactions/badreading.png[/img] Refer to [url=http://pastebin.com/EwtEbtgD]here[/url] or to main points [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1266740&p=43914480&viewfull=1#post43914480]here[/url]

[QUOTE=lavacano;43914742]BGS threw ESO out of the canon too, you'd think Kirkbride would notice that if he's getting pissy at ESO[/QUOTE] I still want to see where Bethesda said this, I haven't seen anything from them claiming that.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43915718]Is still a writer for Bethesda, on contract. He doesn't work there, but his stuff is still valid. Even moreso now, since he somehow got Bethesda to agree on the abolishing of a standard canon. Also, the fact that he built the universe means quite a bit, even if the games don't follow the same universe. It's still his story, he can do with it what he wants. Morrowind was his, and Oblivion, and everything he's written after, including some bits of Skyrim. It's all his universe, his characters, his words. Bethesda-sanctioned or not, it doesn't change that. That's why they tried to distance Skyrim from everything Kirkbride wrote. And still yet, they added the Thalmor, and the Third Aldmeri Dominion, and the White-Gold Concordat, and shouting at people. (You're actually kind of missing the point of the whole concept...)[/QUOTE] Whether or not he wrote it doesn't change much, if he's a writer on contract that means that bethesda has the final say on what's canon or not. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with fanfiction, but to say it isn't because the writer also writes some stuff that's approved canon is a bit silly. I am curious as to the "got Bethesda to agree on the abolishing of a standard canon" point, what exactly do you mean by that and do you have a source? [QUOTE=imadaman;43915729][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12875849/reactions/badreading.png[/img] Refer to [url=http://pastebin.com/EwtEbtgD]here[/url] or to main points [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1266740&p=43914480&viewfull=1#post43914480]here[/url][/QUOTE] Ok I don't wanna sound mean here but did you just link me some steam chat ranting as proof that fanfiction this guy writes is canon?

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916061]Whether or not he wrote it doesn't change much, if he's a writer on contract that means that bethesda has the final say on what's canon or not. That doesn't necessarily mean there's anything wrong with fanfiction, but to say it isn't because the writer also writes some stuff that's approved canon is a bit silly. I am curious as to the "got Bethesda to agree on the abolishing of a standard canon" point, what exactly do you mean by that and do you have a source? [/QUOTE] The TESLore subreddit is currently discussing this whole thing, but the general consensus is that this is sort of an officially-sanctioned "Open Source by Force" tactic that Kirkbride is employing to decent success. A couple of the Bethesda writers have been putting out tweets about C0DA for the past few months, although I don't really have the time to trawl their Twitter accounts this evening. Todd Howard's expressed interest in it as well. But yes, the main sources being used are the IRC logs, MK's posts on Reddit, and some of the BGS loremasters' Twitter accounts. If you were expecting a press release, then I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Your response is actually expected. It's in the disclaimer. MK just doesn't care, and the greater TES lore community really doesn't either, because they've sort of defined this new paradigm of canonicity for themselves. Which, I believe, is the overall point of C0DA.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43916142]The TESLore subreddit is currently discussing this whole thing, but the general consensus is that this is sort of an officially-sanctioned "Open Source by Force" tactic that Kirkbride is employing to decent success. A couple of the Bethesda writers have been putting out tweets about C0DA for the past few months, although I don't really have the time to trawl their Twitter accounts this evening. Todd Howard's expressed interest in it as well. But yes, the main sources being used are the IRC logs, MK's posts on Reddit, and some of the BGS loremasters' Twitter accounts. If you were expecting a press release, then I'm afraid you'll be disappointed. Your response is actually expected. It's in the disclaimer. MK just doesn't care, and the greater TES lore community really doesn't either, because they've sort of defined this new paradigm of canonicity for themselves. Which, I believe, is the overall point of C0DA.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying is the idea involves a bunch of people deciding to accept the lore as canon whether or not the developers agree with it? Seems a bit off to me but whatever people are into I guess. I'm not a huge fan of the non-sanctioned stuff I've seen though

The point is that there is no canon canon or no non canon canon. [quote]The C0DA: There is no such thing as TES fanfiction anymore, unless some one wants to keep it that way. And that's fine, WE doesn't need them, because C0DA is the ever-growing, ever-more-embracing-of-its-fans-contributions and the natural evolution of old TES sped up for the modern age sequel to not any one game in the series' but a sequel to all of it combined. ... Look at the LOVE. It's all over the place. Even the Downvotes are civil. If The C0DA has any rule it is the rule of civility in which to freely associate. We are not here to conquer or get in fights over anything, because... ...we Won the War of Canon. In Winning it, we threw it out. But we're still polite about it existing. And under this umbrella of free association there are no more titles, especially lore-ones; no masters, no vets, no newbs, no casu-el.... unless they reserve that space. That's a part of open spacing The Elder Scrolls to everyone, unbound by platforms or beta keys or pay ins because, above all: There is no more marketing and branding and franchising and selling the joy of The Elder Scrolls. No more fear to swat or get swatted. The law of The C0DA shouldn't cause the former, and it does not tolerate the latter. There is no camping here, only LFG or solo or game moderators when and if we choose. We are the new ETADA, still in beta, and we're going to never be over. Anyone can add to this, no matter if they just pop out of nowhere, have never heard of TES, or are a rocket scientists that dabbles in watercolors. From our tumblr, we've had 5000+ visitors today, some of whom may just have been stopping by. No one should ever be a newbie to joy, only veterans of it. This is the Paradise Mankar could have had if he only remembered not to covet his own gains and not covet solely the idea of Freedom. The C0DA will not fight you on this matter. But we will gladly rejoice when ever you choose to acknowledge your surrender. The War is Over. There is no Canon where WE live. [/quote]

[QUOTE=woolio1;43910253]Well, from what I'm able to discern so far, it starts out with the narrator, Lun-Sul, living in an underground city on one of Nirn's moons after Nirn has exploded into complex mathematics and Dwemeri constructs. Also, he has to kill a Numidium. Somewhere around Page 18, it transitions into a series of Divine origin stories. Myths. Legends passed down from parents to children in the moon city. I think that might be tripping people up. The television-head things don't exist, they're just part of a story. Everything after that point, until it transitions back to the moon city, is a story. Just look closer, maybe it'll make sense. Actually, on closer inspection, that Television-set-head thing sounds like... a B-grade sci-fi movie! And if it were, it could explain why "everyone knows about it." In fact, it's almost propagandish for Vehk&Vehk. It's very 80s as well... Yep. We're reading Kirkbride's screenplay for a Divines origin movie set in a futuristic Morrowind. That's the only explanation for any of this. They're superheroes. They're the Avengers. They're [b]not real[/b]. You tell me that wouldn't belong in a B-grade sci-fi movie made in the 80s. To top it off, there's even a Fresh Prince of Bel-Air reference. The Intellective, ladies and gentlemen, is based on this guy. [t]http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111207182926/elderscrolls/images/a/a1/Grumbagarn.jpg[/t] It's SATIRE. It's a STORY. It's [i]TELEVISION[/i]. And the way it transitions back into the main story... I wonder if this entire thing is television. And this seems to confirm all that:[/QUOTE] who is that guy anyways

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916178]So what you're saying is the idea involves a bunch of people deciding to accept the lore as canon whether or not the developers agree with it? Seems a bit off to me but whatever people are into I guess. I'm not a huge fan of the non-sanctioned stuff I've seen though[/QUOTE] And that's fine, it means what you think is canon IS canon and nothing more or less.

l8 as fuck but i want to know [editline]14th February 2014[/editline] automerge, work

[QUOTE=ProfHappycat7;43916250]who is that guy anyways[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Yagrum_Bagarn]Yagrum Bagarn, last (known) Dwemer alive.[/url]

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916178]So what you're saying is the idea involves a bunch of people deciding to accept the lore as canon whether or not the developers agree with it? Seems a bit off to me but whatever people are into I guess. I'm not a huge fan of the non-sanctioned stuff I've seen though[/QUOTE] Well, yes, except quite a few of the developers and writers are agreeing with it. Even people outside Bethesda are interested in it, including writers at Bioware and Ubisoft. And, really, it's sort of an introspective view of what it means to create "canon" lore. The lore team at Bethesda is constantly rotating. New ideas come in, old ideas leave. Who gets the final say on what is and isn't canon? Is it just what gets put into a game? (The Star Wars universe is very similar, by the way. Especially with the Extended Universe being recognized as separate but canon, which is a very interesting principle which I think we're seeing a variation of here.) Even more interesting is when fanfiction ideas are picked up and put into the game. Michael Kirkbride is one of many notable examples, but he's not alone. The writers do get their ideas from somewhere, after all. And if you're not a fan, that's fine. Kirkbride's not for everyone, mostly because he's on a lot of drugs. All the time. It's not really "coherent" or "logical" or "sane." But it's there, and it's important, if only because it's his branch of the world-story (that's an ancient storytelling concept, where everyone can add something to something else and make it their own. The Greeks took the idea and turned it into the Polity, which focused on a metaphorical marketplace of ideas, where anyone could present their ideas in a public forum.) So, to answer your question summarily, pretty much. It's Kirkbride trying to get people to stop arguing over what is and isn't lore, and to stop idolizing him over everyone else that's writing for the Elder Scrolls series, in the strictest sense. It's also a sort of swan song for him, because he wants to move on and do other things. If you want to go on believing that only Bethesda lore is canon, then go ahead. I would like to ask your opinion on the two published novels, though... Because those were written by someone completely outside Bethesda, but are generally recognized as canon to the Bethesda storyline.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43916330]Well, yes, except quite a few of the developers and writers are agreeing with it. Even people outside Bethesda are interested in it, including writers at Bioware and Ubisoft. And, really, it's sort of an introspective view of what it means to create "canon" lore. The lore team at Bethesda is constantly rotating. New ideas come in, old ideas leave. Who gets the final say on what is and isn't canon? Is it just what gets put into a game? (The Star Wars universe is very similar, by the way. Especially with the Extended Universe being recognized as separate but canon, which is a very interesting principle which I think we're seeing a variation of here.) Even more interesting is when fanfiction ideas are picked up and put into the game. Michael Kirkbride is one of many notable examples, but he's not alone. The writers do get their ideas from somewhere, after all. And if you're not a fan, that's fine. Kirkbride's not for everyone, mostly because he's on a lot of drugs. All the time. It's not really "coherent" or "logical" or "sane." But it's there, and it's important, if only because it's his branch of the world-story (that's an ancient storytelling concept, where everyone can add something to something else and make it their own. The Greeks took the idea and turned it into the Polity, which focused on a metaphorical marketplace of ideas, where anyone could present their ideas in a public forum.) So, to answer your question summarily, pretty much. It's Kirkbride trying to get people to stop arguing over what is and isn't lore, and to stop idolizing him over everyone else that's writing for the Elder Scrolls series, in the strictest sense. It's also a sort of swan song for him, because he wants to move on and do other things. If you want to go on believing that only Bethesda lore is canon, then go ahead. I would like to ask your opinion on the two published novels, though... Because those were written by someone completely outside Bethesda, but are generally recognized as canon to the Bethesda storyline.[/QUOTE] It's fine that he thinks that but canon has a definition - it's the lore that's accepted as actually part of the universe by the people who own it. If a non-canon work becomes accepted by the developer, it's canon. Not really any grey area there, it's non-canon until the developer accepts it as canon. If there were non-canon books but the devs used content from it, bam it's now canon. Otherwise, it's not.

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916412]It's fine that he thinks that but canon has a definition - it's the lore that's accepted as actually part of the universe by the people who own it. If a non-canon work becomes accepted by the developer, it's canon. Not really any grey area there, it's non-canon until the developer accepts it as canon. If there were non-canon books but the devs used content from it, bam it's now canon. Otherwise, it's not.[/QUOTE] What's your opinion on Direnni Tower?

[QUOTE=woolio1;43916448]What's your opinion on Direnni Tower?[/QUOTE] Not aware of the conflict surrounding it, what happened? I mean there's a pretty hard and fast rule - if it's been in a game it's canon, if it hasn't it's not. I mean sometimes canon [i]changes[/i] when a new game comes out and it says something contradictory but aside from that it's usually pretty basic

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916530]Not aware of the conflict surrounding it, what happened? I mean there's a pretty hard and fast rule - if it's been in a game it's canon, if it hasn't it's not. I mean sometimes canon [i]changes[/i] when a new game comes out and it says something contradictory but aside from that it's usually pretty basic[/QUOTE] Direnni Tower is a vessel that landed on Tamriel in the Merethic Era, and was used for the Sundering of Lorkhan. It was flown by Akatosh, and traveled through Time and Space. Alternately, it was built by the Et'Ada, raised from a pillar of solid adamantium, in the early 1st age, but was still the site of the Convention. Both are recognized as canon by Bethesda writers past and present, even though they're completely different stories. Or different retellings of the same story. Which is about the same for anything in the lore, isn't it? There's more than one way to tell a story, and that's a pretty common theme between the games, Kirkbride, and even Shick.

you can/will have to/are able to/must use your free will and choose now.

[QUOTE=woolio1;43916602]Direnni Tower is a vessel that landed on Tamriel in the Merethic Era, and was used for the Sundering of Lorkhan. It was flown by Akatosh, and traveled through Time and Space. Alternately, it was built by the Et'Ada, raised from a pillar of solid adamantium, in the early 1st age, but was still the site of the Convention. Both are recognized as canon by Bethesda writers past and present, even though they're completely different stories. Or different retellings of the same story. Which is about the same for anything in the lore, isn't it? There's more than one way to tell a story, and that's a pretty common theme between the games, Kirkbride, and even Shick.[/QUOTE] Well, more than one way to tell a story is different from content being there or not there but I see your point. Like I said though the standard way to argue canon is to say it's canon for <x> game or that it's been over-ruled by a new game. I mean for example they ret-conned kha'jits being just people with semi-feline features from arena for example.

[QUOTE=Elspin;43916640]Well, more than one way to tell a story is different from content being there or not there but I see your point. Like I said though the standard way to argue canon is to say it's canon for <x> game or that it's been over-ruled by a new game. I mean for example they ret-conned kha'jits being just people with semi-feline features from arena for example.[/QUOTE] Has the Elder Scrolls ever really been "standard" when it comes to canon, though? I mean, they did find a way to canonize the creation kit, as well as a quite spectacular retcon for all the endings of Daggerfall. I don't know, I just don't feel the traditional methods really fit the Elder Scrolls. Especially when you've got such cryptic lore and officially-recognized OOG texts. Maybe that's why Kirkbride seems so eager to shed that label. If you really think about it, this c0da thing really is the Creation Kit for lore itself.

This discussion can only end well

[QUOTE=Kommodore;43917501]This discussion can only end well[/QUOTE] I dunno, seems pretty civil to me. I mean on a scale of youtube comments to ten it's probably like an 8 :v: