The Elder Scrolls Megathread XV: A Song of Ice and Draugr - Games

[QUOTE=Morderator;41077862]A large semi empty world might work for Skyrim. I mean a lot of people are roleplaying this game and it makes sense to setup a tent/camp in the middle of nowhere. Skyrim is about the same size as Oblivion, in my opinion Daggerfall is too large but a worldsize like Just Cause 2 would be awesome: [img]https://s2.file1.info/fUK0T2Wh[/img][/QUOTE] The Daggerfall map was just miles and miles of nothing though. Without the fast travel system it would be hell.

Yeah it was pretty bad. But a world like Just Cause 2 is awesome, there's plenty of wilderness and if you want there is plenty of action around the corner

I always thought Cyrodiil in Oblivion felt pretty large even though it's not in actuality, although Skyrim feels a lot smaller because each "biome" is so tiny. Also, the middle of Skyrim is a giant plain that is easy to get across. A map that much larger would be absolutely crazy.

[QUOTE=rinoaff33;41078796]Also, the middle of Skyrim is a giant plain that is easy to get across. .[/QUOTE] Whiterun Forest mod. [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=12804[/url]

[QUOTE=bdd458;41078817]Whiterun Forest mod. [url]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=12804[/url][/QUOTE] It's supposed to be a tundra, doesn't make sense that you would change it.

-snip-

Come to think of it, it would be possible to make a mod stretching out the world of Skyrim, adding some plants and tundra in between.

It would be great, but what of its practicality, ie how much room would the mod take up on your PC? I've seen several mods for other games that 'stretch the map' and they take up hilarious amounts of space and do next to nothing but make the game crash every five seconds.

-Ahoy, wall o' images ahead cap'n- I also forgot to turn part of the SkyUI HUD off for some of these, which really upset me. [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-27_00017-1.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-27_00023.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-28_00001.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-28_00002.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-29_00002.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-27_00026.jpg~original[/t] [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-06-15_00006.jpg~original[/t] In other news; I made Skyrim look creepy as fuck during early dawn/dusk... [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-27_00015.jpg~original[/t]

[QUOTE=Coridan;41080807]In other news; I made Skyrim look creepy as fuck during early dawn/dusk... [t]http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g351/marinedude10/Skryim/2013-05-27_00015.jpg~original[/t][/QUOTE] Is the noise part of the setup?

[QUOTE=Reds;41077504]The big problem with having a massive world is that there really isn't anything to [I]do[/I] for most of the distance, so you either end up fast traveling or getting extremely bored for most of the audience. If you're going to manually model a world, making it interesting as well as large and having a lot of stuff to do is hard as hell and very time consuming. In Daggerfall it's just a lot of empty space with dungeons scattered occasionally.[/QUOTE] It's possible to do right, but it would require one to design the game to emphasize exploration, wilderness survival, and the adventure of travel. If we literally just had skyrim except 10X bigger it would probably be boring, as the game wasn't really designed with exploration in mind (unfortunatly...). A large part of the design would have to be focused on doing "adventures" to distant lands, where it literally could take you 10+ hours of adventuring on a single quest to get to your destination if you choose. Time would also have to become an important element, making a "slow but safe" route that you might be able to fast travel through a challenge if you are doing something time-sensitive (and god knows we need more of that stuff in RPG's). To make gameplay interesting in the huge expanse, a large amount of random events, happenings, spawns, interactions with characters (both good or bad), etc would need to be able to happen. There would also ideally be a strong emphasis on exploration for survival - i.e. needing to find someplace safe to sleep, needing to find resources (like basic food/water), needing some kind of shelter, etc. The act of exploration itself should feel satisfying as well with gameplay mechanics that take advantage of it (like being able to climb). Combined with a time sensative nature, it could make for a really exciting quest. One where you are always feeling pressured to keep moving so you don't waste time, but you might miss out on key resources/items, you might neglect to attend to some basic survival needs, you might rush too much and get yourself killed by a monster/bandit/enviornment, etc. And if fail to make it there in time, you wouldn't truely know until you arrived (so the quest might say "I need help and I need you here in a few days") and even then there wouldn't be any kind of "game over", just an alternate consequence for showing up late, etc. In other words, the game needs to be designed around the world for a game like that to really work, there needs to be mechanics in place to make the act of exploration actually involving and interesting, there needs to be mechanics in place to make "Player vs Environment" part of the challenge (i.e. the world you are in can kill you if you neglect to take care of yourself or make dumb choices in travel that end to you getting killed), and there needs to be sufficent levels of random happenings that can go on (think Read Dead Redemption) to have the chance of something unexpected to happen. A game with the size of Daggerfall would be loads of fun to do that, and you don't even need to hand-place everything except around the most important areas. Ideally though you'd want a procedurally generated world that is interesting and well designed though. Landmark areas wouldn't be procedurally generated at all (the terrain, settlements, certain forts, mountains, cities, etc), but the space between might. To prevent reptitiveness though the procedural generation would need to be smart, like Spelunky. That's a great example of smart procedural generation - the levels feel different every time and no game of spelunky feels the same, but yet it's never broken and there are always consistent key things that continually show up in certain configurations to ensure you can always reach the exit or a shop keeper.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;41078913]It's supposed to be a tundra, doesn't make sense that you would change it.[/QUOTE] I hate tundra and plains. Looks 1000 times better imo. Goes well with Enhanced Cities and Towns: Whiterun as well.

[QUOTE=Morderator;41077862]A large semi empty world might work for Skyrim. I mean a lot of people are roleplaying this game and it makes sense to setup a tent/camp in the middle of nowhere. Skyrim is about the same size as Oblivion, in my opinion Daggerfall is too large but a worldsize like Just Cause 2 would be awesome: [img]https://s2.file1.info/fUK0T2Wh[/img][/QUOTE] Assuming this is accurate. ( i don't think it is. burnout looks far too big, not that i've played it I think each country should be at least the size of wow's lands, that would make the cities five times larger. This wouldn't make them proper cities though, they'd move from glorified hamlets to villages. At 200 miles... Even better. We might get proper cities with a [I]Just cause[/I] sized map. Though i think daggerfall is simply too big. However, i don't think bethesda have the... Well, they aren't known for finding the best way for doing something. A big map would need both good procedural generation and a guiding hand (bethesda would fail at one of them). Whilst bigger cities would require new social systems and more numerous faction bases.

[QUOTE=.Isak.;41077294]I really hope they make future Elder Scrolls games much larger, like in the DaggerXL video. I mean, in Skyrim, Riverwood is like a 5 minute stroll from Whiterun. Everything's so close and cramped. Stuff should've been way more spread out, in my opinion. I hope that happens in whatever TESVI is.[/QUOTE] Riverwood is a five minute full run from Whiterun, in real time. When walking, it takes maybe twenty minutes real time, which is something stupid like 5 hours in game. They got the scale pretty bang on in Skyrim, for me, though I'd quite happily play something bigger.

[QUOTE=DrasarSalman;41080841]Is the noise part of the setup?[/QUOTE] Yeah, its film grain, but when a screenshot is taken it looks kind of funky instead of the way it looks in-game.

[QUOTE=Coridan;41080807]-Ahoy, wall o' images ahead cap'n- I also forgot to turn part of the SkyUI HUD off for some of these, which really upset me. [/QUOTE] So, is this a WIP or do you have it released?

I'd much rather have a smaller more interesting world than a giant boring one.

Back to Skyrim! Of course, since 1.9 I have been experiencing extreme stutter and lag outside at certain areas [probably a combination of old save [1 year +] and graphical enhancement mods], though I can't say I noticed it before the 1.9 patch and Dragonborn expansion. Azzada Lylvieve got killed by a dragon in Dragon Bridge leaving a wife and 2 children. I keep trying to make various species extinct while travelling along Skyrims dangerous roads & my current quest is to fix Serana of vampirism thus pissing off Molag Bal. Ultimate Follower Overhaul, allows me to have a veritable number of troops with which to steal any chance of levelling up I may have. I have a large number of weapon & armour mods of which most I will never use but at least the npcs use a fair number of them. Some pictures! [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578992213579647199/88C2253CA721BA6299EDB51F336F27FA16FB0333/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/578992213579649655/AE6FCB45515485C7E4D1A54E120A5D8F0D03D18C/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/578992213579644172/54BB82BB366A434AB42805D12BCE956A10429F46/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559840308630803777/4CC9588FC09D418DBDF49D6CA419968FA775E372/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/559840308610946374/9CF97B6519C369920057EE9D34480CF20314E69A/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/541821373764793803/942F881A48EC7BF3726E8BA4A95C295C97481EB4/[/IMG] [IMG]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/542942346081378723/1F453865B3659FCAD9F619E592E423857109F141/[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Skyward;41083563]I'd much rather have a smaller more interesting world than a giant boring one.[/QUOTE] I think New Vegas is a shining beacon of how not to build a world, sadly Skyrim seems to commit many of the same crimes, to a greater or lesser extent. In New Vegas, the map is basically all desert (obviously), with incredibly minor locations dotted around scarcely. In Skyrim, the map is basically all forest/snow, with incredibly repetitive dungeons dotted around fairly scarcely. I know it doesn't seem like it, but they're actually pretty well spread out. When NV starts, you HAVE to go one way, down past Primm. Going any way else results in your immensely probable death, either from deathclaws or from super mutants. When Skyrim starts, you're able to go everywhere, but you're only [I]presented [/I]with one route, which makes almost everyone head to Riverwood without even thinking about it. You have a choice, but most don't notice it. During NV, you're trapped by invisible walls and crazy-tough enemies, and forced along set paths to various locations. There's one way to Vegas, one way to Nipton, etc; even if you can choose where you go, you don't get to choose how you go there. During Skyrim, you're trapped by terrain, and forced along set paths. Those paths are much more varied than in NV, but there's no question that there's fixed ways to get from one place to another, and if you try going some way the devs either didn't anticipate or want, you'll be greeted by a mountain that's all but impossible to climb.

The package with Skyrim came to my house yesterday, but I've got exams until 27th. I've decided to play Oblivion's expansions while waiting. And I must admit, Shivering Isles are fun, but what I like the most is Sheogorath himself. I was expecting a dumbass who is a tryhard at being funny, but I ended up laughing at almost everything what he says. [img]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576740413776491224/3D3A99122F8A8F9604FAF1B002A0FD3E2C6CF104/[/img]

They only seem to show the jolly side of his madness. I'm not even convinced he's mad. Just a developed sense of humour. He's consistent and he shouldn't be. Next game they should show some of the more morbid aspects of his madness. Would suprise the shit out of players. [I]Oh hey it's sheogorath! time for some quests involving kittens and cabbages.... OH GOD THE CITY IS OVERWHELMED WITH DAEDRA... *kills all the 'daedra'* OH HOLY SHIT THOSE WEREN'T DAEDRA! [/I]

[QUOTE=The Jack;41084297]They only seem to show the jolly side of his madness. I'm not even convinced he's mad. Just a developed sense of humour. He's consistent and he shouldn't be. Next game they should show some of the more morbid aspects of his madness. Would suprise the shit out of players.[/QUOTE] Jolly? He says he'll jump rope with your entrails. He may sound happy but that doesn't make him any less serious.

Gotta love developing with other team members [t]http://i.cubeupload.com/YB8yRZ.jpg[/t] dumbo player race confirmed

On the subject of Sheogorath, I loved how they portrayed him in SI. Throughout the entire expansion you come to enjoy his mania, from the moments when he's praising you for a job well done, to the rather humorous (though still deadly) threats. Then, just as the forces of Order arrive at his doorstep, when you expect him to make a witty remark, he just doesn't. Instead you look at a broken man, who's all but given up. His personality there mirrored the layout of the Shivering Isles perfectly. Come Skyrim, when you're doing his quest, you find yourself laden with a rather nice continuity nod when he says that Martin was the best Septim.

[QUOTE=pawelte1;41084237]The package with Skyrim came to my house yesterday, but I've got exams until 27th. I've decided to play Oblivion's expansions while waiting. And I must admit, Shivering Isles are fun, but what I like the most is Sheogorath himself. I was expecting a dumbass who is a tryhard at being funny, but I ended up laughing at almost everything what he says. [img]http://cloud-2.steampowered.com/ugc/576740413776491224/3D3A99122F8A8F9604FAF1B002A0FD3E2C6CF104/[/img][/QUOTE] There's probably no better written expansion pack than SI, in the world, for any game.

The world in skyrim isn't really that interesting the way it's set up. It feels like it's designed around fast travel. STALKER Call of Pripyat, while not nearly the same type of game of course, has a game world built around exploration, and it's probably why I haven't fast traveled anywhere in the game other then the times they force you to, despite having played it about half as much as I played Skyrim already. Honestly, it would do Bethesda good to rethink their design process for their worlds for the next game. I'd like to see one of their games besides Morrowind where walking doesn't get boring so early in the game, and where the worlds aren't so empty.

[QUOTE=Bloodshot12;41085333]The world in skyrim isn't really that interesting the way it's set up. It feels like it's designed around fast travel. STALKER Call of Pripyat, while not nearly the same type of game of course, has a game world built around exploration, and it's probably why I haven't fast traveled anywhere in the game other then the times they force you to, despite having played it about half as much as I played Skyrim already. Honestly, it would do Bethesda good to rethink their design process for their worlds for the next game. I'd like to see one of their games besides Morrowind where walking doesn't get boring so early in the game, and where the worlds aren't so empty.[/QUOTE] And here my friends is the dilemma of game development. We have this guy saying that the world is too empty while we have a page behind us saying that the world is cramped and needs to have more empty space. There are so many different preferences that it doesnt surprise me that Bethesda has turned to making a simple cookie cutter rpg as to try to cater to everyone as much as possible. I am not saying it is the right choice, but it is understandable why the elder scrolls are changing in the ways they are as social media becomes even more prevalent and they can see the multitude of complaints asking for entirely different improvements that cant be accomplished at the same time.

[QUOTE=1chains1;41086033]And here my friends is the dilemma of game development. We have this guy saying that the world is too empty while we have a page behind us saying that the world is cramped and needs to have more empty space. There are so many different preferences that it doesnt surprise me that Bethesda has turned to making a simple cookie cutter rpg as to try to cater to everyone as much as possible. I am not saying it is the right choice, but it is understandable why the elder scrolls are changing in the ways they are as social media becomes even more prevalent and they can see the multitude of complaints asking for entirely different improvements that cant be accomplished at the same time.[/QUOTE] See that's why nobodys really realizing the big picture Small game worlds or big game worlds aren't really the important thing, you can have both be excellent with the right design The problem is, a game like Skyrim thrives off focusing the design around the game world, exploration, and legitimizing your character in relation with this world, but it does an awful job at it. Skyrim's overall game design is focused on keeping you doing quests - its doing the "GTA IV" solution to open world design where they try to ignore that there is an actual world you are in, and instead focus on all their design efforts on linear "not-open world" questing that ends up being not very good at all, because Bethesda aren't exactly as good at doing linear mini-adventures as good as Rockstar are. It's an open world game that doesn't embrace the advantages open world game design can offer. Instead of focusing on the world, the experience of being in a new world in general, the feeling of immersion you can get in such a setting, gameplay mechanics that reinforce exploration and finding your own adventure and purpose (all these things are things ONLY possible in open world style games)... Skryim focuses on questing and having you quest constantly for fear of making you "bored". It's a rather shallow mentality to design a game like Skyrim in my opinion, and its why I sitll think Morrowind is the best elderscrolls game because Morrowind's entire design focus didn't revolve completely around questing, it revolved around the mythos and experience of Vvardenfel in general. It's part of the reason why I'm pretty excited for Witcher 3, because they seem to be taking that route despite the game being very story-focused.

[QUOTE=1chains1;41086033]And here my friends is the dilemma of game development. We have this guy saying that the world is too empty while we have a page behind us saying that the world is cramped and needs to have more empty space. There are so many different preferences that it doesnt surprise me that Bethesda has turned to making a simple cookie cutter rpg as to try to cater to everyone as much as possible. I am not saying it is the right choice, but it is understandable why the elder scrolls are changing in the ways they are as social media becomes even more prevalent and they can see the multitude of complaints asking for entirely different improvements that cant be accomplished at the same time.[/QUOTE] Actually I'd say both are true, it's empty in the sense that there's no real reward for exploration, there's nothing you really find out in the world that warrants your attention enough to explore every little thing, and it turns exploration into simply walking from point a to b, and the random events are so obviously identifyable that they feel like they were generated just to mitigate any boredom from exploring. On the other hand, it feels cramped thanks to how easy it is to stumble into dungeons and locations of interest, and how quickly the game is to "mark them on your map", and just how similar each dungeon is. It may have been hand crafted but everything feels artifical, and it makes the world feel much smaller then it should feel. In games like morrowind, or stalker, a fair amount the places you find feel like actual places, discovering them/traveling to them is its own reward, whereas skyrim (and oblivion, but to a slightly lesser extent) make them feel like they are just there to fill up spots on your map, and give the player a place to fight stuff.

[QUOTE=1chains1;41086033]And here my friends is the dilemma of game development. We have this guy saying that the world is too empty while we have a page behind us saying that the world is cramped and needs to have more empty space. There are so many different preferences that it doesnt surprise me that Bethesda has turned to making a simple cookie cutter rpg as to try to cater to everyone as much as possible. I am not saying it is the right choice, but it is understandable why the elder scrolls are changing in the ways they are as social media becomes even more prevalent and they can see the multitude of complaints asking for entirely different improvements that cant be accomplished at the same time.[/QUOTE] Nah, not realy. Cities further away from eachother, but each with more inside. Sparser dungeons and camps, but with more in each camp. Bigger environments, but with more features. If you can't think of ways to make everyone happier, you shouldn't be designing games.