The Elder Scrolls Megathread XVII: Paid Mods? Not in My Community. - Games

[QUOTE=cdr248;49192738]At least morrowind's combat doesnt make me feel like Im fighting on a goddamn slip n slide (oblivion). Despite morrowind's stupid decision to include rng, its controls are probably the most responsive out of all the games (until you get caught on a collision box when jumping with really high acrobatics.)[/QUOTE] The stupid decision to include rng in an rpg when that was the standard for decades before morrowind? Morrowind plays exactly like games like ultima underworld but in full 3d, yeah it's dated but it's hardly a "stupid decision" Personally disliking it is one thing, complaining that the missing really doesn't have enough feedback visually so it looks silly is one thing, but morrowind's combat is actually the most deep of all of the games. The amount of variables that effects it is staggering, it isn't a bad combat system, it's an awkward combat system, but it's still the best in an elder scrolls. [editline]26th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;49192166]Morrowind still holds up really well as long as you ignore the fucking trash ass combat system. Pick argonian, pick the warrior's birthstone, get Endurance and Spear as your primary attribute and major skill, get the first spear you can find in the game and stomp over the game all the way up to Dagoth Ur's stupid masked up face.[/QUOTE] Terrible advice, spears are the most under powered of the two handed weapon archetypes, what's next? Going to suggest medium armor too? And argonions can't wear full helms or boots. boots is the more important of the two so you can use the boots of blinding speed and any resist magic enchantment or spell to cruise through the game easily. Orc with a warhammer or greatsword will carry you far easier if you're a noob to morrowind

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;49195001]Personally disliking it is one thing, complaining that the missing really doesn't have enough feedback visually so it looks silly is one thing, but morrowind's combat is actually the most deep of all of the games.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't go that far, RNG isn't really all that deep. Morrowind's combat is OK because it wasn't weird at the time, but games have moved on from that for a reason. Though it would be considerably less frustrating if there was a different animation when you missed or something (it would also look incredibly silly when your hand is continuously slipping from your bow string making you miss completely with [I]every shot[/I]) edit: in other news I've convinced myself to play Morrowind unmodded, since it runs decently on my laptop and I suddenly have a little more spare time I want to play a Dunmer but other than that I have no idea what I should do edit: I couldn't think of a good name and now my Nerevarine is named Foshezl God help me

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;49195001]Terrible advice, spears are the most under powered of the two handed weapon archetypes, what's next? Going to suggest medium armor too? And argonions can't wear full helms or boots. boots is the more important of the two so you can use the boots of blinding speed and any resist magic enchantment or spell to cruise through the game easily. Orc with a warhammer or greatsword will carry you far easier if you're a noob to morrowind[/QUOTE] But then you can upgrade your endurance +5 every time you level up because you keep using spears and even if you're technically using average weapons you're still untouchable and unkillable because you're swimming in excess hitpoints thanks to the massive girth of your endurance

Nah Nah Nah, you guys ain't doing it right. You gotta go Redguard, main Strength and Endurance, then pick Heavy Armor, Long Blade, and then whatever else you want. Then when you get a sign, pick the lady for +20 endurance & Personality. Now everyone loves you and you have like 70 strength and 80 endurance at the start, and 50 in swords. All the good artifacts are heavy armor and you can invest in other melee skills to use the other melee artifacts like Sunder or Skull Crusher. Now you can enjoy Morrowind and barely worry about the combat.

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;49195001]The stupid decision to include rng in an rpg when that was the standard for decades before morrowind? Morrowind plays exactly like games like ultima underworld but in full 3d, yeah it's dated but it's hardly a "stupid decision" Personally disliking it is one thing, complaining that the missing really doesn't have enough feedback visually so it looks silly is one thing, but morrowind's combat is actually the most deep of all of the games. The amount of variables that effects it is staggering, it isn't a bad combat system, it's an awkward combat system, but it's still the best in an elder scrolls. [editline]26th November 2015[/editline] Terrible advice, spears are the most under powered of the two handed weapon archetypes, what's next? Going to suggest medium armor too? And argonions can't wear full helms or boots. boots is the more important of the two so you can use the boots of blinding speed and any resist magic enchantment or spell to cruise through the game easily. Orc with a warhammer or greatsword will carry you far easier if you're a noob to morrowind[/QUOTE] I'm on the same team as you brother calm down son. I personally don't mind the rng combat, I know the ins and outs of the game well enough to minimize whiff and ping to the point where it's practically unnoticeable. However, while the rng combat is easy to bypass (if you aren't stupid enough to play a completely gimped build), you can't deny that it's a fault with the game. And while it might be the 'deepest' combat of the series, it's still probably the most uninteresting and the majority of that 'depth' pretty much goes away once you realize that all you gotta do it pop a couple 'Restore Fatigue' potions now and then. Perhaps "stupid" wasn't the best word to use (as the devs were tight on budget and time and didn't have the benefit of hindsight), but Morrowind's combat is probably the one feature that doesn't really deserve any praise (or hell even the hate for it is pretty stupid). But even then, some of the hate is somewhat justified as even the worst of RPG players should be relatively decent at combat in an [I]ARPG[/I]. [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;49195103]But then you can upgrade your endurance +5 every time you level up because you keep using spears and even if you're technically using average weapons you're still untouchable and unkillable because you're swimming in excess hitpoints thanks to the massive girth of your endurance[/QUOTE] Higher agility will carry you a lot farther as fatigue and hitpoints hardly matter past the start since you'll be poppin potions like any other TES game. If you want better max stats then just use alchemy to kill the system and achieve CHIM Even on an awfully gimped build (dunmer, spears, marksman, medium armor, and everything else that's ass [don't do this unless you know what you're doing]) I was able to fuck everything over pretty damn easily by just chaining some potions with fortify intelligence: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/q91p5Nf.png?1[/IMG]

It's a roleplaying game. You can't play it right or wrong.

[QUOTE=cdr248;49192738]At least morrowind's combat doesnt make me feel like Im fighting on a goddamn slip n slide (oblivion). Despite morrowind's stupid decisionto include rng, its controls are probably the most responsive out of all the games (until you get caught on a collision box when jumping with really high acrobatics.)[/QUOTE] Yeah, Morrowind's combat works fine; it's definitely rough at the start, but if you plan your character properly at the beginning you're hitting most of your swings by like level 3-4. There's a couple combat mods out there anyway that change it to a 100% hit chance if it bothers people that much. I don't feel like we ever really got a good alternative, since as you said Oblivion had every hit land, but everyone just slid around as they got hit. Skyrim has ever hit land too, but it doesn't feel like there's any weight behind it most of the time, and everything is a damage sponge.

[QUOTE=fear me;49195502]It's a roleplaying game. You can't play it right or wrong.[/QUOTE] That's why I roleplayed my character as having Parkinson's disease. That way I could justify missing.

[QUOTE=fear me;49195502]It's a roleplaying game. You can't play it right or wrong.[/QUOTE] But there are certain builds that are easier for sure, playing an orc stealth archer isn't going to be as easy as a melee orc.

[QUOTE=fear me;49195502]It's a roleplaying game. You can't play it right or wrong.[/QUOTE] The problem with this statement is that while it's true, there are still ineffective and effective ways to play a game. So it becomes extremely annoying when new players don't care to learn the mechanics of the game and then go on a tirade because they died to a mudcrab.

While I understand how and why the diceroll system worked for the combat in Morrowind, it doesn't excuse one massive glaring error. There's nothing fun about seeing your weapon impact an enemy and have an invisible system go [B]"NOPE. NUH-UH, YOU MISSED."[/B]

[QUOTE=fear me;49195502]It's a roleplaying game. You can't play it right or wrong.[/QUOTE] You can't play it "wrong" but you can play it in a way that prevents you from hitting [I]anything at all[/I] and that's pretty fuckin' bad :v:

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49197172]While I understand how and why the diceroll system worked for the combat in Morrowind, it doesn't excuse one massive glaring error. There's nothing fun about seeing your weapon impact an enemy and have an invisible system go [B]"NOPE. NUH-UH, YOU MISSED."[/B][/QUOTE] It's no different in games like ultima underworld or daggerfall, but people consider those games classic rpgs. the 3D aspect of morrownd, combined with viewing it from a perspective of modern games, makes you think it should be one way when it isn't trying to be an action game. The system is hardly invisible, if you understand the mechanics you'd know why your chance to hit is worse or better, and can compensate for it. Sure the lack of visual feedback is annoying but nobody complains about this in older games like daggerfall, it's fairly hypocritical. if you swing and miss in morrowind there is no impact effect, because they didn't have the tech to make it look like you actually missed, if you hit there's a different sound effect, a hitsprite, and the enemy will grunt. you have to suspend your thoughts that a sword that looks like it should hit didn't and imagine you're playing an abstract rpg that happens to be in third or first person 3d, the perspective of the first person makes it weird I know, but people exaggerate how bad it is. It's bad from an action game standpoint, but morrowind is NOT an action game, it's a hardcore classic rpg trapped between two different technology levels of games, and that's why it's cool, it's nothing like any other game out there.

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;49197241]It's no different in games like ultima underworld or daggerfall, but people consider those games classic rpgs. the 3D aspect of morrownd, combined with viewing it from a perspective of modern games, makes you think it should be one way when it isn't trying to be an action game. The system is hardly invisible, if you understand the mechanics you'd know why your chance to hit is worse or better, and can compensate for it. Sure the lack of visual feedback is annoying but nobody complains about this in older games like daggerfall, it's fairly hypocritical. if you swing and miss in morrowind there is no impact effect, because they didn't have the tech to make it look like you actually missed, if you hit there's a different sound effect, a hitsprite, and the enemy will grunt. you have to suspend your thoughts that a sword that looks like it should hit didn't and imagine you're playing an abstract rpg that happens to be in third or first person 3d, the perspective of the first person makes it weird I know, but people exaggerate how bad it is. It's bad from an action game standpoint, but morrowind is NOT an action game, it's a hardcore classic rpg trapped between two different technology levels of games, and that's why it's cool, it's nothing like any other game out there.[/QUOTE] I would've been 100% on board with the system if all it did was show the actual rolls, or have proper feedback to the roll-results.. I'm naturally more lenient with Daggerfall simply by the virtue of it being an older game. Gaming has evolved over time after all. I shouldn't have to imagine I'm playing something that I'm not in order to properly enjoy a game. The fact that's a suggestion is absolutely bizarre to me.

You don't have to imagine you're playing something you're not, you have to imagine the idea that Morrowind is not a fucking action game and literally plays EXACTLY like Daggerfall only with 3d models and not sprites. I said my original post weird, I really meant this. I feel like people judge Morrowind different just because it's in full 3d, and forget it originally started development on the Battlespire engine which is a modified version of Daggerfall's. Morrowind was behind the times when it came out in terms of gaming trends because it had a rough development cycle, but the gameplay it uses is the same as a game people still consider to hold up, just because it's a bit older. Which is an annoying double standad, good gameplay holds up to the test of time, if it's only good because the game is old, then it isn't good. I've never been bothered by Morrowind's combat system, for the most part I think it's far more fun than Skyrim or Oblivion's. If the miss animation was just slightly different then the normal swing animation nobody would care, it's such a minor flaw that gets blown way out of proportion like it's the worst thing ever.

I'm not going to jump to take up arms to defend Daggerfall's combat either. I simply said I'm more lenient with it. I'm not saying either are bad games, either. I love Morrowind's world. I love Daggerfall's ridiculous amount of fucking EVERYTHING. The combat to me is simply the weakest part of both games.

I honestly dont understand how people can be so bothered with not hitting all the time in Morrowind, but have no problem, or at least much less of a problem, with enemies being unreactive damage sponges. I mean, if I can clearly see on my screen that I just cleaved some bandit in two with a huge swing of my two-hander, and yet for no reason, he doesn't even end up being fatally wounded, much less dead, that makes just as little sense as seeing on your screen that you hit, while then not hitting. And the thing is, in the latter example it's supposed to be an abstraction. The graphical element in older cRPGs like Morrowind and Daggerfall isn't supposed to be an accurate representation of what's actually happening, it's just an abstraction.

That's much more of a normal thing in RPGs, plus even IF you hit in Morrowind you still had to deal with the 'damage sponge.' Unfortunately developers have decided that in difficulty is directly proportionate to hit points. In retrospect, I am judging Morrowind from a 'modern' perspective which is unfair for obvious reasons.

What mod is the best one for re-adding the attributes to Skyrim? [editline]27th November 2015[/editline] NVM, only one works with the current Skyrim version

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49197460]That's much more of a normal thing in RPGs, plus even IF you hit in Morrowind you still had to deal with the 'damage sponge.' Unfortunately developers have decided that in difficulty is directly proportionate to hit points. In retrospect, I am judging Morrowind from a 'modern' perspective which is unfair for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] It's worth noting that Morrowind was released in the same year as Arx Fatalis, Summoner 2, and Gothic 2, each of which did (in my opinion) their combat system in a more responsive way. Gothic 2 still had that silly "hey you missed pal" system, but it was done with just a bit better feedback. It's true that Morrowind's mechanics were part of the genre's norms at the time, but it was hardly released in a time when [I]all[/I] games had them. Sometimes it's easy to forget that Morrowind was released in 2002, and that 2002 was 13 years ago.

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49197460]That's much more of a normal thing in RPGs, plus even IF you hit in Morrowind you still had to deal with the 'damage sponge.' Unfortunately developers have decided that in difficulty is directly proportionate to hit points. In retrospect, I am judging Morrowind from a 'modern' perspective which is unfair for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] if you hit somebody in morrowind, and they're not a level 60+ boss character, their health bar will drop FAST if you do reasonable damage yourself. it's much less damage sponge then skyrim's bandits in fur armor surviving 20 hits of my daedric greatsword

[QUOTE=Rahkshi lord;49198190]if you hit somebody in morrowind, and they're not a level 60+ boss character, their health bar will drop FAST if you do reasonable damage yourself. it's much less damage sponge then skyrim's bandits in fur armor surviving 20 hits of my daedric greatsword[/QUOTE] 'Least you know you're hitting them.

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49198198]'Least you know you're hitting them.[/QUOTE] It's pretty easy to tell when you do or don't hit, it's just that not hitting looks kind of awkward.

[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;49197665]It's worth noting that Morrowind was released in the same year as Arx Fatalis, Summoner 2, and Gothic 2, each of which did (in my opinion) their combat system in a more responsive way. Gothic 2 still had that silly "hey you missed pal" system, but it was done with just a bit better feedback.[/QUOTE] I haven't played them in a while, but I recall both of those games having really clunky control schemes.

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49197460]That's much more of a normal thing in RPGs, plus even IF you hit in Morrowind you still had to deal with the 'damage sponge.' Unfortunately developers have decided that in difficulty is directly proportionate to hit points. In retrospect, I am judging Morrowind from a 'modern' perspective which is unfair for obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] Like I said, though, it doesn't even bother me as much in an abstracted system, because [i]it's abstracted[/i]. If my attack only does a small bit of damage, it's probably because I didn't hit very well, or my enemy deflected most of the attack. However, in the more representative system of later games, I can clearly see that I sliced straight through that bandits chest. [QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49198198]'Least you know you're hitting them.[/QUOTE] I really don't get this. You know if you're hitting someone in dice-roll systems too, it's just based on different factors.

[QUOTE=Mr_Ripper;49198198]'Least you know you're hitting them.[/QUOTE] You do in Morrowind as well. The enemy's health is displayed right above yours, and a blood effect when you land a hit. When it comes to landing a hit, that depends on your stats, your fatigue, IIRC weapon condition, and your enemy's stats, IIRC their armor.

Morrowind's character creation and combat mechanics are simple once you have a basic understanding of stats and what each one does. It's got nothing on the extensive custom class creation and difficulty of Daggerfall though. Same dice-roll mechanics as Morrowind, but a lot more gets put into play aside from just weapon skill and how much agility you have. The direction you swing your weapon also matters, as you can attack with your weapon in a certain way to either land more often but deal low to moderate damage, or swing it to land an inaccurate, yet devastating blow.

I'm honestly more annoyed by morrowind fucking horrible quest log system and complete lack of quest markers, even for broad areas or anything. The whole "you're doing your own research and have to follow directions closely" immersion thing gets old really fast, especially when quests start being a bit more complex or about more vague locations.

Morrowind combat: [video]https://youtu.be/0hBuEB4YHSA?t=38[/video] 0:36 onwards

Skyrim has been remarkably stable for me lately. No crashes at all for hours. Probably helps that I've been completely avoiding almost all of the major script heavy-hitters mod wise (w&c, frostfall, footprints, enhanced blood, anything apollodown etc etc) It's damn refreshing being able to enjoy the game with out it going LOL NOPE every 5 mins.