The Elder Scrolls Megathread XVII: Paid Mods? Not in My Community. - Games

[QUOTE=_charon;48059494]What your missing is that the Skyrim Thieves Guild is fundamentally different from what they were in Oblivion. They're not a mob of master thieves, lapping up the Empire's corruption; they're a couple of ragtag survivors hiding out in a slum in a war-torn province, whose luck has literally run out since the Skeleton Key was stolen. They're a bunch of hangers-on to a glorious legacy.[/QUOTE] I know what they are. It does not make them make any more sense, in any way.

[QUOTE=elowin;48059450] No. I mean, fuck, if anything, the larger your group is, the easier you're discovered. That's why most organized crime groups work in smaller cells, where each member only knows the leader of their individual cell. Which is clearly not the case for the Skyrim Thieves Guild. [/QUOTE] What I meant was that they set up rules and regulations for thievery along with establishing a large network of informants so that they can avoid operatives from doing stupid shit (like murder) and getting them all caught.

[QUOTE=cdr248;48059717]What I meant was that they set up rules and regulations for thievery along with establishing a large network of informants so that they can avoid operatives from doing stupid shit (like murder) and getting them all caught.[/QUOTE] But that's already accomplished by not being organized in the first place. Better, too.

[QUOTE=elowin;48059510]I know what they are. It does not make them make any more sense, in any way.[/QUOTE] Is it really even supposed to be logical? Typically gangbangers that go around doing criminal shit tend to not be the smartest people. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;48059724]But that's already accomplished by not being organized in the first place. Better, too.[/QUOTE] You're probably going to get caught regardless, but when you're organized the least you can do is weasel your way out of it.

[QUOTE=cdr248;48059732]Is it really even supposed to be logical? Typically gangbangers that go around doing criminal shit tend to not be the smartest people.[/QUOTE] The ones that don't get caught are.

[QUOTE=elowin;48059450] As for their other illegal activities, yeah, they do other shit. It's not really clear to what degree, but they're definitely doing some protection rackets. My issue with that is, at that point you're not even a Thieves Guild anymore. And yet they not only call themselves the Thieves Guild, but actively try to be one. It would have made more sense as just being some large gang.[/QUOTE] So you have a problem with them fixing the problem you had with the Thieves' Guild? First you're mad that they're just doing breaking and entering steal-y steal-y and now you're mad that they evolved past that? [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;48059764]The ones that don't get caught are.[/QUOTE] That doesn't really answer the question. I'm saying that it makes sense that the skyrim guild's presence is kind of dumb because the people that inhabit it appear to be thugs, low-lifes, gangbangers, and stupid people who don't know how to subtly operate. So sure it doesn't make sense from our point of view, but for the members of the guild they are basically just trying to keep the guild going despite having little expertise in how to do it. [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] While I will agree with you on the topic of Skyrim's Guild is dumb, I can't agree that it's dumb in the other games. They're basically just meant to be the large crime syndicate of the setting (and basically medieval times in general) and are a common fantasy staple, so you can't honestly blame Bethesda for including a Thieves' Guild in the game.

[QUOTE=cdr248;48059811]So you have a problem with them fixing the problem you had with the Thieves' Guild? First you're mad that they're just doing breaking and entering steal-y steal-y and now you're mad that they evolved past that?[/QUOTE] I don't think they fixed anything, though. I think they broke it harder. Like I explained in the very part you quoted. It might be easier to understand what I write if you read it. [QUOTE=cdr248;48059811]That doesn't really answer the question. I'm saying that it makes sense that the skyrim guild's presence is kind of dumb because the people that inhabit it appear to be thugs, low-lifes, gangbangers, and stupid people who don't know how to subtly operate. So sure it doesn't make sense from our point of view, but for the members of the guild they are basically just trying to keep the guild going despite having little expertise in how to do it.[/QUOTE] Except it answers the question perfectly. And you say they guild is inhabited by just stupid thugs and gangbangers. And while i'd like to agree with you that they are fucking retards, because they are, they're also demonstrably not at the same time. Because logic. [QUOTE=cdr248;48059811]While I will agree with you on the topic of Skyrim's Guild is dumb, I can't agree that it's dumb in the other games. They're basically just meant to be the large crime syndicate of the setting (and basically medieval times in general) and are a common fantasy staple, so you can't honestly blame Bethesda for including a Thieves' Guild in the game.[/QUOTE] Like I said just a bit further up the page, I don't really have much of a problem with it in the other games, because it's fundamentally different. It actually makes sense in a somewhat strange, roundabout manner. And, I don't really think something being a staple in any way justifies it if it's terrible.

[QUOTE=elowin;48060639]I don't think they fixed anything, though. I think they broke it harder. Like I explained in the very part you quoted. It might be easier to understand what I write if you read it. [/QUOTE] Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like you didn't like the part about them being an organization of thieves, and then when people gave evidence of them being more like a gang, you were then annoyed that they weren't a Thieves' Guild proper because they weren't thieving. But yeah now that I know you're just hating on Skyrim's guild I don't really have too much of a problem anymore, I thought you were talking about the other games :v: [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] Although the morrowind guild should still get some flak just because you can literally just walk in the bar and be like: Yo are you the thieves' guild? "No." Can I join though? "yeah sure sign here"

So I encountered my first Dragon Priest, and it was my hardest battle so far. But for some reason, his loot is awful? I just got like 200 gold, and that's it. I was expecting something more for all the effort.

The fancy mask with unique enchantment is a quite good piece of loot.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;48061744]The fancy mask with unique enchantment is a quite good piece of loot.[/QUOTE] I didn't get any mask..

[QUOTE=Zero_;48061841]I didn't get any mask..[/QUOTE] Named Dragon Priests drop unique masks. Random ones don't usually drop much of use besides a rare alchemy ingredient. The mod Konahrik's Accoutrements gives nameless Dragon Priests some handy loot in the form of dragon priest armor, among other things. It's a damned good mod, makes collecting every mask actually worthwhile.

[QUOTE=_charon;48061861]Named Dragon Priests drop unique masks. Random ones don't usually drop much of use besides a rare alchemy ingredient. The mod Konahrik's Accoutrements gives nameless Dragon Priests some handy loot in the form of dragon priest armor, among other things. It's a damned good mod, makes collecting every mask actually worthwhile.[/QUOTE] Sounds good, I think I'm going to install it. Should I also install Konahrik's Privilege and Dragon Priests Enhanced? Or is it included with the Accoutrements? EDIT: nvm, I'll install them all.

[QUOTE=cdr248;48060967]Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded like you didn't like the part about them being an organization of thieves, and then when people gave evidence of them being more like a gang, you were then annoyed that they weren't a Thieves' Guild proper because they weren't thieving. But yeah now that I know you're just hating on Skyrim's guild I don't really have too much of a problem anymore, I thought you were talking about the other games :v: [editline]26th June 2015[/editline] Although the morrowind guild should still get some flak just because you can literally just walk in the bar and be like: Yo are you the thieves' guild? "No." Can I join though? "yeah sure sign here"[/QUOTE] They really didn't stop being a Thieves Guild, though. They're still a Thieves Guild first and foremost, but then they just add a few things on top, which, mind you, is probably the worst thing you could ever do. The thieving part that is, there's literally no reason to sneak into people's houses and steal their shit when you can just run a protection racket. It's safer, more effective, and takes less effort. And I mainly like Oblivion's guild, it's by far the game that did it best. Just like every other guild.

[QUOTE=elowin;48063764]They really didn't stop being a Thieves Guild, though. They're still a Thieves Guild first and foremost, but then they just add a few things on top, which, mind you, is probably the worst thing you could ever do. The thieving part that is, there's literally no reason to sneak into people's houses and steal their shit when you can just run a protection racket. It's safer, more effective, and takes less effort. And I mainly like Oblivion's guild, it's by far the game that did it best. Just like every other guild.[/QUOTE] That's a pretty small thing to complain about but okay. Might just think of it as something where the Guild has evolved to a point where they are a proper crime syndicate but have still kept the vestiges of being a Thieves' Guild just because of tradition, and since thieves' benefit from its membership, no one ever tries to get rid of that portion of the organization. or Think of it as like a cartel. The Guild regulates crime and thievery, allowing thieves to operate with a certain degree of protection as well as access to fences as long as they pay respects and a cut of their earnings with the guild. Along with that they pursue other ventures to bring in the big bucks.

[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;48056825]It's always fun to play the underdog races with a follower mod that lets you recruit many of them at a time--[/QUOTE] Oh yea, I had my fun time with my boyz. :v: And coop or more with friends would probably be cool as well, for whatever path you may choose. As for any weird immunities, no, I had my difficulty set just right believe me. [QUOTE=_charon;48057165]A group of thieves working together to make bigger heists and push competing thief groups out of business seems fine to me.[/QUOTE] That reminds me when my Orcs were driven down to the sewers in an attempt to escape.. Oh look who did I eventually found? Da hidin little theefs, wit all da wine, mead, food, blades, trinkets.. Orc boyz think they should have some of dat. Time to kill sum rats! W'AAAAAAAAAGGH!

Skyrim's aproach to guilds was absolutely awful. Though I think the best 'guild advancement questline' Isn't the one where you're the chosen one, but where people don't want you to advance if you advance too quickly, or where you can skip a step by murdering your superiors (without getting caught), or your underlings with a lower rank are either overly ambitious (and dangerous to you) or a fuckup who needs your guidance. Join little in-group factions for power struggles... That should be how every group is done.

Oblivion's guild advancement felt a lot more natural because you weren't a chosen one and you didn't end up supreme kiss-my-ass leader in a matter of days, you'd end up at a high rank but not the actual leader.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48064291]Oblivion's guild advancement felt a lot more natural because you weren't a chosen one and you didn't end up supreme kiss-my-ass leader in a matter of days, you'd end up at a high rank but not the actual leader.[/QUOTE] Which guild are you talking about specifically? In general, it felt like you were the leader of the guild at the end of each guild questline.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48064291]Oblivion's guild advancement felt a lot more natural because you weren't a chosen one and you didn't end up supreme kiss-my-ass leader in a matter of days, you'd end up at a high rank but not the actual leader.[/QUOTE] Not convinced you actually played the guild questlines. You become the leader in all of them, except arguably the Dark Brotherhood.

You become grandmaster of most guilds but you don't take all the power for yourself and you're not dropped in the seat because "oh hey you're the chosen one I guess better disregard all the other worthwhile members". In all quests you actually earn your position in what takes a lot more actions and a lot more ingame time than in Skyrim, and since guilds in Cyrodiil are more or less federated groups under a larger organization, you don't actually gain that much power by the end and your position is more honorific. If anything you're an administrator, and your second in commands/the leaders of the local cells are the real ones in charge. In the Arena, you never "lead" the institution, you become the grand champion which makes you the main attraction but people are still taking decisions that are past your own judgement. By the end of the Dark Brotherhood questline you're not actually given control of the brotherhood but rather control over your own local cell. As for the thieves guild, you're not really made leader of the guild as the doyens are the ones who are in control, you're given the mcguffin that turns people into the iconic figure of the thieves guild (who's not actually a leader of anything, he's more of a decoy while the doyens take care of shit). And in all those quests you're never given full control of anything just because the plot said you were the chosen one. You have to work your way to the top and it's by actually performing worthwhile actions that you become important. Skyrim's questlines are literally "you stumbled in at the right place at the right time and you became supreme overlord".

Except you're not made the leader of guilds in Skyrim because of being "the chosen one" either. That is and always has been a baseless jab people use against them. Your ranking in the Skyrim factions is functinally exactly the same as in Oblivion. In both cases you come in, do some filler quests, and then do the "big quest" and you're made leader. The only reason the pacing was better in the Oblivion counterparts is because there were more quests, and they spanned between cities instead of being all in the same place. The only way you could actually see it any different is personal bias.

In Skyrim, you get further in guilds because you're either the chosen one or because you stumbled in at the right time. The Winterhold College is the perfect example of this. Since you get in by just applying, the writers thought that didn't make you special enough and decided that within one quest of entering the college you find a super powerful artifact and [I]you[/I] of all people are contacted by the fucking psijic order (an order so exclusive not even the thalmor got a hold of them). The only reason they contact you instead of Tolfdir (who arguably at this point in the quest is a lot more qualified to deal with this shit than you are) or the arch-mage (the guy's who's fucking responsible for the place the eye of magnus is kept at, mind you) is because the plot required the player to be involved. Later on, you become the archmage because you just happen to be the one to have kicked Ancano's ass, and despite people like Mirabelle Ervine or Tolfdir being considerably more capable at such a job than you, you're still elected new archmage because you're literally the chosen one of the entire questline. Then you have the companions questline where a bunch of blokes seek you out in an open field to tell you to join them, and once you get there despite some people not trusting you for shit you're immediately allowed to know their secret (in a scene that was really dumb because Farkas could have wiped the floor with these three cunts in like a minute in human form) and literally one quest later you get to be part of the circle, which is described as incredibly secretive and exclusive, without having actually accomplished much. And then, once again, you're allowed to become the harbinger within a week of joining the companions despite the entire rest of the circle being more qualified and willing to take that responsibility. And what did you do to get such a high treatment ? You killed a bunch of racist blokes and then fought a few ghosts of no significance whatsoever. You didn't even reassemble Wuuthrad yourself nor did you find most of the shards on your own. The Dark Brotherhood is also dumb. You stumble on some dumb kid who calls for the brotherhood (which is apparently so god damn incompetent they've let this kid call for them for several days), complete his contract, and [I]that's[/I] how you get into their club - a decision that proves even dumber when you can just pick up a sword and cut their leader's head off within seconds of meeting her, because the local leader of the dark brotherhood is a fucking idiot who, despite having the secret agents of the empire on her trail, still decides to take random blokes along. In Oblivion, you're contacted only if you murder an innocent, and you can ignore the offer entirely, while in Skyrim you're dragged into it by some cunt with a poor sense of judgement. Oh and the thieves guild is literally a guy walking into you, asking you to steal shit, and then you become batman. You never have to deploy any amount of effort or never have to actually prove yourself to get anywhere. In Oblivion, when you become a member of the mages guild your main objective is to gather letters of recommendation to get a shot at the upper spheres of the institution, and that's where the actual main quest start. Before you get archmage you need to work your ass off to even get recognized as a decent mage, let alone as a potential candidate for running the administration of the entire place. Let's not forget the fact that in Oblivion, in order to get into the thieves guild you need to either actively seek them out or you need to get arrested for a crime at least once and served your time. Makes a lot more sense than a bloke approaching you and going "hey mate you look pretty poor/rich do you mind stealing some shit from me ?". Basically in Morrowind and Oblivion you're never really pushed to join any guild and have to perform certain actions to join them or be asked to join them, while in Skyrim you're not only allowed in instantly for all of them but you're also straight up dragged into them because the game makes it an actual quest to even join these factions.

But that is literally no different from Oblivion's system. You just so happen to join the Mage's Guild while the Worm King is getting ready to attack and stop him and become leader. You just so happen to join the Fighter's Guild while they're being bullied by the Blackwood Company and stop them and become leader. You just so happen to join the Thieve's Guild while the Grey Fox is need of help, so you help him and become leader. It's literally the same thing, there are just more quests and locations in the Oblivion versions so it has better pacing, and the writing is better. [editline]banana[/editline] Like, you can criticize the writing and pacing all you want but all of this "chosen one" stuff is completely baseless.

But in Oblivion you're not grabbed by the hand and brought to the quests, and when you start them out you're just another nobody who's joined in for whatever personal motivation they may have. Don't forget the part of the main quest of Skyrim where you're essentially forced to join the thieves guild to know where Esbern is, at least on your first playthrough.

I don't think people played the same Guild quests as me in Oblivion.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48065414]But in Oblivion you're not grabbed by the hand and brought to the quests, and when you start them out you're just another nobody who's joined in for whatever personal motivation they may have. Don't forget the part of the main quest of Skyrim where you're essentially forced to join the thieves guild to know where Esbern is, at least on your first playthrough.[/QUOTE] I think this all comes from trying to make a far more intuitive and inclusive game without random obscure quests that you won't find out about unless you specifically go and look for them. I'd say it was a success since Skyrim sold like fucking hot cakes, but it does hurt the game if you try to take it seriously. I'm hoping it proves to be a learning experience for Bethesda so TESVI refines things a bit more by lenghtening guild questlines and not letting you end up as the master of everything in like a week's time. Also I didn't ever do the Thieves Guild questline but I still found Esbern.

[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;48065633]I think this all comes from trying to make a far more intuitive and inclusive game without random obscure quests that you won't find out about unless you specifically go and look for them. I'd say it was a success since Skyrim sold like fucking hot cakes, but it does hurt the game if you try to take it seriously. I'm hoping it proves to be a learning experience for Bethesda so TESVI refines things a bit more by lenghtening guild questlines and not letting you end up as the master of everything in like a week's time. Also I didn't ever do the Thieves Guild questline but I still found Esbern.[/QUOTE] Skyrim would have sold like hotcakes regardless, TES has a huge fanbase. Even Oblivion sold like a 3am corner whore on sunday and that had "obscure quests"

I really do wonder if it would have sold as well regardless. Undeniably a large part of the reason it sold so well was how much it was hyped up before release, so I wonder how much of Skyrim's success was due to that, and how much was the simplification.

I remember one of the Mage Guild quests that was wicked hard for me you like went into one dudes dreams and shit and the mobs were always like 3 levels over me