The Super Smash Bros. Discussion and HEY join this idiots http://steamcommunity.com/groups/Smashpunc - Games

[QUOTE=Glitchman;44580846]replace "cool" with "unfun"[/QUOTE] Say what you want, this shit is pretty fucking cool. [IMG]http://fat.gfycat.com/CooperativeFabulousArieltoucan.gif[/IMG] [editline]18th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Kentz;44580889]i really do not understand why there are people so angry with smash being played competitively or understanding its game mechanics and tactics more indepht in what way is wavedashing / whatever i showed you "unfun"? because it expands the game more than the developers original design was? because it opens up new ways to play the game?[/QUOTE] Facepunch hates competitive games (except SC2 and Dota).

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44580916][IMG]http://fat.gfycat.com/CooperativeFabulousArieltoucan.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MK6TXMsvgQg[/media] Also, I don't think wave-anything-ing is really appropriate in any non-competitive setting, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with doing it competitively.

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44580916] Facepunch hates competitive games (except SC2 and Dota).[/QUOTE] i dont think this is it nobody has anything against competitive gaming, but as soon as somebody opens his or her mouth about techniques in super smash then that person better prepare for a shitstorm of hate. because for some reason, for every game in the universe it is fine to come up with new ways to play the game, except for super smash. god forbid people playing super smash without items, god forbid people finding new techniques in games!!!

There's a difference between being competitive and then there's using techniques that pretty much can cause an instant-win. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't wave-dashing allow for unstoppable kill combos?

[QUOTE=Kentz;44580957]i dont think this is it nobody has anything against competitive gaming, but as soon as somebody opens his or her mouth about techniques in super smash then that person better prepare for a shitstorm of hate. because for some reason, for every game in the universe it is fine to come up with new ways to play the game, except for super smash. god forbid people playing super smash without items, god forbid people finding new techniques in games!!![/QUOTE] To be fair, this kind of stuff also happens with things like bunnyhopping in Counter-Strike. The competitive players resolve that it's an advanced technique in 1.6, allowing a skilled player to enter a room faster and make them harder to hit, raising the 'skill ceiling' compared to Global Offensive restricting you from doing anything like that at all with an invisible stamina system for consecutive jumps. A shitton of other players resent pros for things like that, though, thinking it's a hugely unfair advantage; if a professional can headshot with a flick of the wrist and combine that with being significantly faster than average player speeds while holding a knife, they would basically be a near-unstoppable force. It's community stuff, really, and dependent on the community. I don't mind minor exploits so long as they don't essentially turn a player who uses them entirely into an untouchable asshole. But simultaneously, they're [i]exploits[/i], so if someone complains that they're removed via patches or a sequel title, then they should get over themselves if it was never intended to be there to begin with. .. which makes L-canceling a tricky subject. v:v:v

People immediately assume that competitive = no fun aloud a lot of the time, but really trying to play to the best of your ability, and playing with someone who's at your skill level is a lot more satisfying than casual play

[QUOTE=Glitchman;44581045]There's a difference between being competitive and then there's using techniques that pretty much can cause an instant-win. Correct me if I'm wrong, [B]but doesn't wave-dashing allow for unstoppable kill combos?[/B][/QUOTE] umh no wavedashing is just a tool that lets you move (or rather, glide) on the ground. in a wavedash you can perform an attack, so you can perform an attack while moving. however wavedashing is 90% used to maneuver on the stage (keeping distance to opponents) and cancel out landing lagg techniques or exploit which are "unstoppable kill combos" (lol) are usually banned from competitive anyway, such as wobbling: [video=youtube;aceOP82iyFE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aceOP82iyFE[/video]

[QUOTE=RikohZX;44581047]To be fair, this kind of stuff also happens with things like bunnyhopping in Counter-Strike. The competitive players resolve that it's an advanced technique in 1.6, allowing a skilled player to enter a room faster and make them harder to hit, raising the 'skill ceiling' compared to Global Offensive restricting you from doing anything like that at all with an invisible stamina system for consecutive jumps. A shitton of other players resent pros for things like that, though, thinking it's a hugely unfair advantage; if a professional can headshot with a flick of the wrist and combine that with being significantly faster than average player speeds while holding a knife, they would basically be a near-unstoppable force. It's community stuff, really, and dependent on the community. I don't mind minor exploits so long as they don't essentially turn a player who uses them entirely into an untouchable asshole. But simultaneously, they're [i]exploits[/i], so if someone complains that they're removed via patches or a sequel title, then they should get over themselves if it was never intended to be there to begin with. .. which makes L-canceling a tricky subject. v:v:v[/QUOTE] I don't really like Bunny hopping either. I mean, if there were some exploit in an FPS where shooting at someone while at a specific point in an unscoping animation did 20% more damage, it would certainly take skill to use it, but it would still be an unintuitive and unintended mechanic that needlessly adds a layer of meta game knowledge of engine quirks.

I'd be fine with it personally if the people who abused it didn't act like everyone who doesn't is a idiot. Even to the point where a dev (say Sakurai) goes through extra lengths to say "no. This IS a exploit and wrong." and the community pretends like the guy who MADE THE GAME is wrong about how it should be played

[QUOTE=Sift;44581251]I'd be fine with it personally if the people who abused it didn't act like everyone who doesn't is a idiot. Even to the point where a dev (say Sakurai) goes through extra lengths to say "no. This IS a exploit and wrong." and the community pretends like the guy who MADE THE GAME is wrong about how it should be played[/QUOTE] That's precisely my problem with exploits to begin with. I don't mind them if they're not detrimental to the gameplay (in this case, I don't mind wavedashing really), but people get very angry about them being fixed when they're exploits to begin with. Some people hated Gears of War 2 because you couldn't rape everything with the shotgun like you could in the first game (although that fits more under rebalancing), and when the creator of Counter-Strike wanted to add new features, [i]his community booted him out[/i] which forced him to make the questionable Tactical Intervention instead.

tbh melee is a good solid game in it's own right, and it's got a really strong competitive scene so if you want the wavedash mechanics you have a game and a scene to get into and wavedash to your hearts content it's literally pointless to complain about wavedashing in ssb4

The thing is that wavedashing is pretty akin to skiing in Tribes. It's this weird unintuitive trick that wasn't actually planned but turned out to become such a ubiquitous part of the metagame that people forgot that, to the uninitiated, it's completely arcane and non-obvious on top of taking quite a bit of technical skill that no one expected or intended for you to learn in order to pull off. But in the case of Tribes' skiing - or perhaps more relevant to fighting games, combos in SFII - the devs [i]embraced[/i] that quirk for the sake of all those in the competitive scene who used it, which is the exact opposite of what Sakurai did. Sakurai put his foot down and said, "Sorry, we never intended for this, and we're removing it from Brawl. We understand a lot of players got used to the tactic, but TFB." and that caused resentment among competitives who weren't used to a dev rejecting a technique rather than embracing it. Bear in mind, there's nothing inherently wrong with removing these discoveries if that's what the devs want to do.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;44581045]There's a difference between being competitive and then there's using techniques that pretty much can cause an instant-win. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't wave-dashing allow for unstoppable kill combos?[/QUOTE] There's only one infinite in Melee, it's done by a mid tier character (Ice Climbers), and requires a specific grab setup that is quite hard to pull out unless you're very experimented, and even then, you can mash out of it if you're not high %. Also wavedashing allows infinites haha good one I'm gonna keep it for later. [editline]19th April 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=Redswandir;44581407]tbh melee is a good solid game in it's own right, and it's got a really strong competitive scene so if you want the wavedash mechanics you have a game and a scene to get into and wavedash to your hearts content it's literally pointless to complain about wavedashing in ssb4[/QUOTE] Sorry to wish for a competitive scene as great as melee's on ssb4. You can hate on wavedashes, they're required to make a big competitive Smash, Project M has a bigger scene in a few months than its original game (Brawl) in 6 years for a reason ...

[QUOTE=VinLAURiA;44582045] But in the case of Tribes' skiing - or perhaps more relevant to fighting games, combos in SFII - the devs [i]embraced[/i] that quirk for the sake of all those in the competitive scene who used it, which is the exact opposite of what Sakurai did. Sakurai put his foot down and said, "Sorry, we never intended for this, and we're removing it from Brawl. We understand a lot of players got used to the tactic, but TFB." and that caused resentment among competitives who weren't used to a dev rejecting a technique rather than embracing it. Bear in mind, there's nothing inherently wrong with removing these discoveries if that's what the devs want to do.[/QUOTE] Actually in SFII's case, Capcom actually implemented a system where trying to do a combo would cancel it, but it made the game duller to them so they (mostly) removed it.

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44582604]Sorry to wish for a competitive scene as great as melee's on ssb4. You can hate on wavedashes, they're required to make a big competitive Smash, Project M has a bigger scene in a few months than its original game (Brawl) in 6 years for a reason ...[/QUOTE] The thing is, a lot of people honestly don't care about the competitive scene. If you're into that kind of thing, fine, but it's not gonna make or break a game for the vast majority of players and in Smash's case, it's debatable if Nintendo even cares. A lot of Nintendo games are perennial even in a casual sense, and they never stop selling or having active players. Just look at NSMB1 or any Mario Kart game. They're not exactly the kind of people you'd want to ask for a more competitive game; Melee was a bit of a happy accident and if people want a competitive-friendly game, they're better off with their own efforts like Project M than hoping against hope for Nintendo of all people to oblige.

I agree that Competitive Smash is a minority, but including appealing things for the Competitive Smash scene has literally no detrimental impact on the Casual scene, you can just not wavedash if you don't want to, your friends won't either, same goes for L Cancel, nothing prevents you from playing low tier characters, et caetera. My point is that Sakurai is dissing the Competitive Scene for no actual reason, as giving us treats wouldn't decrease the game's popularity in the Casual Scene overall. I'm almost positive For Glory wasn't Sakurai's idea and rather Namco's, and Sakurai just had to agree with it and move on.

wavedashing isn't even really used in competitive play and it doesn't do much anyway. i couldn't care less if it's in or not.

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44583098]I agree that Competitive Smash is a minority, but including appealing things for the Competitive Smash scene has literally no detrimental impact on the Casual scene, you can just not wavedash if you don't want to, your friends won't either, same goes for L Cancel, nothing prevents you from playing low tier characters, et caetera. My point is that Sakurai is dissing the Competitive Scene for no actual reason, as giving us treats wouldn't decrease the game's popularity in the Casual Scene overall. I'm almost positive For Glory wasn't Sakurai's idea and rather Namco's, and Sakurai just had to agree with it and move on.[/QUOTE] I think it's more likely that Sakurai just doesn't like wavedashing as a concept. He may not care for the competitive scene, but I doubt he's outright trying to spite them.

Wavedashing is akin to crouch jumping in multiplayer games. (Such as TF2) Cool, you learned a move that may or may not work against others. But later on, everyone will catch on and it'll just doom you in the end because you become predictable as fuck. Basically do it here and there and don't do it all the time and you're pretty ok. As for caring about it, I don't.

Hey guys, I'm trying to do a video on the history of Smash Bros 64, but I'm having problems finding info on the development process. Do any of you know of interviews with Sakurai, or anything about the game's beta?

[QUOTE=BalrogTheMaster;44583200]Hey guys, I'm trying to do a video on the history of Smash Bros 64, but I'm having problems finding info on the development process. Do any of you know of interviews with Sakurai, or anything about the game's beta?[/QUOTE] [video=youtube;kYBh2aKDkhI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYBh2aKDkhI[/video]

Yeah, look up [url=http://www.ssbwiki.com/Dragon_King:_The_Fighting_Game]Dragon King[/url] on the Smash wiki and go from there.

Awesome, thanks so much guys! :downs:

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44582604]There's only one infinite in Melee, it's done by a mid tier character (Ice Climbers), and requires a specific grab setup that is quite hard to pull out unless you're very experimented, and even then, you can mash out of it if you're not high %. Also wavedashing allows infinites haha good one I'm gonna keep it for later. [editline]19th April 2014[/editline] Sorry to wish for a competitive scene as great as melee's on ssb4. You can hate on wavedashes, they're required to make a big competitive Smash, Project M has a bigger scene in a few months than its original game (Brawl) in 6 years for a reason ...[/QUOTE] You think Brawl's lacking competitive scene is just because they removed wavedashing? It's mainly the fact that there's tripping and hitstun cancelling that killed it, because they make the game too spacing/single hit oriented and it's nearly impossible to combo. So much more shit was changed in Project M it's really foolish to call that a causal link.

Hey Sakurai. Hey. Hey Sakurai. [sp]Tag-team final smashes[/sp]

[QUOTE=Maruhai;44583098]My point is that Sakurai is dissing the Competitive Scene for no actual reason, as giving us treats wouldn't decrease the game's popularity in the Casual Scene overall. I'm almost positive For Glory wasn't Sakurai's idea and rather Namco's, and Sakurai just had to agree with it and move on.[/QUOTE] How does for glory mode have anything to do with this? That's there to give an even, skill-based playing field so there's no elements of randomness in the game. It looks to me so fair like Sakurai has been putting effort into removing (non-optional) randomness from the game and ironing out easily exploited weaknesses (like tether recoveries) and this shows in many of the veteran characters like Olimar and Zero Suit Samus, that's what making a competitive game should be about, not leaving in glitches because they've gained popularity. The argument for wavedashing adding functionality and depth is just stupid to me, because you're advocating an unnecessarily difficult button input for an action that could be more easily achieveable if they just changed one little thing. If you want to be able to do attacks out of a run, why not campaign for Sakurai to change the dash attack mechanics so that you don't just do a dash attack if you're running and it actually depends on the direction of the stick when the button is pressed? If you want L-Cancelling because it makes gameplay faster, just advocate for all the landing lag animations to be sped up, and you have what you wanted with literally no depth or advantage lost, it's just not as pointlessly difficult. These techniques just add an arbitrary skill ceiling and makes the game harder and more intimidating for new players to get into.

I agree with Flyingman. The reason why I think a lot of people don't like wavedashing is that it's a non-explained unintuitive and unnecessary mechanic that offers a big bonus over players who have no knowledge of the game outside of tutorials or practice. It's exactly like crouch jumping: Games in the source engine rarely make any mention of it, it's not something you'd assume would occur, and it allows you to have an advantage over other players who had no way to know about it, for example in source engine games higher rocket jumps, access to certain jumps and ledges otherwise impossible, etc. If Sakurai went and made the technique official, like saying that dodging toward the ground would allow for speed and quick ground attacks in a tutorial, or making the animations/particle effects for it more obvious, then it wouldn't bother me in the slightest. But he felt that the technique wasn't what he wanted in the game. Maybe he felt it added an unneeded amount of complexity that was unnecessary and just not fun to do. Other people would disagree, saying it added more depth, but I don't blame him. It's kind of weird he keeps L-Canceling though.

Here's something we need to consider. Sonic's moveset in Brawl was shit and extremely repetitive. Will it be less shit in Smash 4?

[QUOTE=Mr. Zombie;44583971]Here's something we need to consider. Sonic's moveset in Brawl was shit and extremely repetitive. Will it be less shit in Smash 4?[/QUOTE] We can only hope.

[QUOTE=Mr. Zombie;44583971]Here's something we need to consider. Sonic's moveset in Brawl was shit and extremely repetitive. Will it be less shit in Smash 4?[/QUOTE] Nothing really stands out in any gameplay footage we've seen of him. I'm assuming he'll be the same old shit.