[QUOTE=Synavix;49827733]they must be shitting themselves when the player just flies in and out whenever they need anything[/QUOTE]
I assume they have a part of Synth Retention organize coursers going in and out by queuing the teleport requests, and the player just gets the priority on every occasion because nepotism.
I've found the best way to sum up the institute:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8tdgBOn3ww[/media]
[QUOTE=RedBaronFlyer;49826828]Speaking of the Institute, I've checked everywhere and can't find one reason why they decided synths were the way to go[/QUOTE]
Ya the cyborg program to me seems like where most of fallouts tech usually went, we have the tank minds of the big MT, Mr. House's pod, ect ect, the cyborg program worked on kellog, but then they decided not to do anything more and stopped all together
Most of the fallout universe's science was trained on boosting man's capacity, yet the institute seemed to do a big "nope" and made robot laboroers instead
[editline]27th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=AJ10017;49827676][sp]the institute couldnt spam their teleporter until they got their new reactor running though near the end of the main quest. this would just be a huge waste of precious energy for the institute[/sp][/QUOTE]
That's true but they could just place heaps of gen-1s in some ruins somewhere nearby and then activate them when they need them. They seem to have warehouses full of old gen-1s somewhere as they use them for cannon fodder, if they don't have the power to use their teleporter why not position the synths on the surface you may ask?
Oh ya because the institute has a teleporter and has to use it on every occasion
It would've been interesting for them to just do mind-wipes like they do for robobrains.
Especially if their version of gen 1's would be ferals with their skin on. Just aggressive rabid people with no self-preservation instinct throwing themselves at the enemy.
[editline]27th February 2016[/editline]
Hell, if 1st generation synths had a combat inhibitor that led them to do the same thing it would've been pretty neat.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49827385]What exactly is there that the institute does but can't be explained in some way by the lore or by just simple logic ?
They do some pretty stupid shit but that's how the faction is designed. They're intelligent people when it comes to science but not exactly smart when it comes to decision making.
It's kind of a recurring theme in Fallout that all the factions you interact with have either deeply flawed ideologies or deeply flawed methods. New Vegas played on this by giving you an option to just say fuck it and go your own way (with your own flawed methods and ideologies), and 4 does it to a slightly lesser extent in the shape of the minutemen.[/QUOTE]
Where did they get all the raw materials and advanced fabrication abilities? They supposedly started out as a group of refugee students/staff in the basement of CIT. So where'd they get the kind of material needed to build a [I]teleporter?[/I]
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49828173]Where did they get all the raw materials and advanced fabrication abilities? They supposedly started out as a group of refugee students/staff in the basement of CIT. So where'd they get the kind of material needed to build a [I]teleporter?[/I][/QUOTE]
science and stuff
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
also the same place you get all the materials to have fucking [I]sturges[/I] build a teleporter
just stuff laying around the place
They have access to the same magical lathe the player does
[QUOTE=Minelayer;49828127]It would've been interesting for them to just do mind-wipes like they do for robobrains.
Especially if their version of gen 1's would be ferals with their skin on. Just aggressive rabid people with no self-preservation instinct throwing themselves at the enemy.
[editline]27th February 2016[/editline]
Hell, if 1st generation synths had a combat inhibitor that led them to do the same thing it would've been pretty neat.[/QUOTE]
Hell if gen-1s weren't glorified toasters they could be fun to fight, instead they are as armored as a toaster and die pretty quickly
[editline]27th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49828173]Where did they get all the raw materials and advanced fabrication abilities? They supposedly started out as a group of refugee students/staff in the basement of CIT. So where'd they get the kind of material needed to build a [I]teleporter?[/I][/QUOTE]
Well I'd imagine the real MITs basement probably already has some pretty high tech shit lying around as well as all sorts of raw electronic components
The fallout CIT probably had tons of cooler sci-fi shit, they had a fusion reactor at the very least.
What the player builds isn't an actual teleporter from what I understand, it simply hijacks the protocauls for the institute's teleporter forcing it to target the receiver base instead of its intended target, the sparks and electricity coming off it are purely for show
[QUOTE=Schmaaa;49827233]When I first heard about it in Fallout 3, I always thought that the Commonwealth would be a more...wealthy area. Zimmerman or whatever the fuck his name was made it sound like it was a large, mostly secure city where the Institute was generally in charge and made huge techological advances. I was really hoping it would be a cool, dystopian, Bladerunner-esque city surrounded by the desert wasteland, secure from monsters and radiation and full of weird technology and robots and shit but riddled with crime, gangs, and danger. Old-gen synths would be tossed out into the streets and would be treated poorly by the populance, while the newest and most realistic synths would be living as servants in the rich abodes of the wealthy bigwigs at the Institute.[/QUOTE]
Zimmer said that the Commonwealth was a hellhole, except for the Institute, which he said was hidden and not open to outsiders. We got pretty much what he described.
I would've been happy if we got more Bladerunner cyberpunk, though. Where's That Gun gone off too, anyways?
edit: also
[video=youtube;VkNqtAZAvOI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkNqtAZAvOI[/video]
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49828173]Where did they get all the raw materials and advanced fabrication abilities? They supposedly started out as a group of refugee students/staff in the basement of CIT. So where'd they get the kind of material needed to build a [I]teleporter?[/I][/QUOTE]
Same way the BOS managed to fix up and operate a fucking blimp. All the right intel and a shitload of manpower ready to go.
Except while the BOS works on raw manpower and practically just takes already existing tech, the Institute comes up with both better tech and better manpower, exponentially increasing the speed at which they can come up with and produce new things.
House plans to use practically the same tactic in New Vegas. Once he gets full control of his environment, he can start creating tech extremely fast, and the shittier he treats his workforce, the least he has to worry about them and thus the faster he can churn out the necessary technology to get himself and the rest of the elite out of this shithole and into space.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828360]Same way the BOS managed to fix up and operate a fucking blimp. All the right intel and a shitload of manpower ready to go.
Except while the BOS works on raw manpower and practically just takes already existing tech, the Institute comes up with both better tech and better manpower, exponentially increasing the speed at which they can come up with and produce new things.[/QUOTE]
the Brotherhood had a massive shuttle carrier's worth of raw materials to work with and all the tools they had from the Capital Wasteland and Adams Air Force Base. there's no realistic explanation for the Institute's manufacturing abilities.
[QUOTE=DChapsfield;49828376]the Brotherhood had a massive shuttle carrier's worth of raw materials to work with and all the tools they had from the Capital Wasteland and Adams Air Force Base. there's no realistic explanation for the Institute's manufacturing abilities.[/QUOTE]
The BOS made their blimp in 10 years. The Institute had 200 to come up with teleporters. Seems fair to me.
There are large chunks of the Institute you don't see. All of the "industrial" portions are out of sight (see how you can visit the synth creation chamber, but not the place where the newly created synths go), which obviously includes manufactures and such things.
I mean it's an underground complex, and they have the technology to build practically as deep and as sprawling a facility as they want to - it's fair to assume that a place like this, one with a renewable, self-sufficient, cheap slave-type workforce, would be able to get some pretty significant manufacturing. You see [I]one room[/I] that is able to create fully capable living organisms in less than five minutes per unit. I doubt it takes them very long, or a lot of space for that matter, to make any piece of technology.
As for how they got the whole thing started, well again, they had two hundred years. It's never quite clarified when teleportation started being used, but seeing as Kellogg managed to make his way to the institute and it [url=http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/7/7f/Kells_meeting.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20151126181336]looked like this[/url] at the time, it's fair to assume it's a rather recent addition, likely at around the same time as their breakthrough on gen 3 synths.
[QUOTE=Sableye;49828273]
Well I'd imagine the real MITs basement probably already has some pretty high tech shit lying around as well as all sorts of raw electronic components
The fallout CIT probably had tons of cooler sci-fi shit, they had a fusion reactor at the very least.
What the player builds isn't an actual teleporter from what I understand, it simply hijacks the protocauls for the institute's teleporter forcing it to target the receiver base instead of its intended target, the sparks and electricity coming off it are purely for show[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828360]Same way the BOS managed to fix up and operate a fucking blimp. All the right intel and a shitload of manpower ready to go.
Except while the BOS works on raw manpower and practically just takes already existing tech, the Institute comes up with both better tech and better manpower, exponentially increasing the speed at which they can come up with and produce new things.
House plans to use practically the same tactic in New Vegas. Once he gets full control of his environment, he can start creating tech extremely fast, and the shittier he treats his workforce, the least he has to worry about them and thus the faster he can churn out the necessary technology to get himself and the rest of the elite out of this shithole and into space.[/QUOTE]
An airship is not the same as a teleporter, cloning facilities/organic life synthesis, energy weapon mass production, and android manufacturing. We figured out airships in the 1930s, ignoring the Prydwen's excess weight; the rest of the shit the Institute conjured out of thin air in their basement either hasn't been achieved or requires access to a massive quantity of raw materials and fabrication equipment. If the teleporter and/or the origins of the other projects existed beforehand in the basement, then [I]maybe[/I] you could excuse it with them going out and scavenging materials, but otherwise, they've essentially whipped up highly advanced technology out of nothing.
I mean, let's look at just [I]one[/I] of those technologies, the old generation synths. So you've got A) their bodies, which are robots complicated in excess of what we can even make today, and B) their 'brains' which I can only assume use microchips. They mass produce these bodies - where are they getting the copper? The steel or aluminum? The silicon? The fucking [I]polymers[/I] that are used for anything non-metal - which, might I remind you, very frequently are derived from petroleum, something the Fallout universe was kind of running low on by the war's end. Where are they getting all this shit, and in such quantities that they can essentially crap out swarms of robots that they literally treat as disposable?
Second, have you seen the kinds of facilities required to manufacture microchips?
[t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/GLOBALFOUNDRIES_Dresden.jpg[/t]
That's a modern semiconductor factory in Dresden that makes AMD CPUs. It's massive. How the fuck are they going to just... jury-rig something like that in a damn college basement?
My point is not that their rate of advance is absurd, it's that they're even able to do they shit they do while supposedly being confined to a glorified basement.
Yeah, okay, so in real life you need a massive factory to produce microchips.
In Fallout 4, the Institute can produce a Synth, aka a fully active, fully operational mature adult human being made of a mix of engineered biological tissue and mechanical components, in a room the size of a downtown apartment. It would be even smaller without the needlessly complex spinning parts.
So if all they need to assemble a living being is a room this size, imagine how small the rooms must be to assemble the components of that person. It probably doesn't take a whole lot of space to build an automated chain that makes the bones used by the (also automated) chain to put together a full human being.
Manufacturing and resources may have been an issue in the past but two centuries of isolation and complete unhindered scientific freedom allowed them to come up with solutions to these issues - one of the solutions being access to essentially engineered slave labor, something which predates the gen-3 synths and only got better once those showed up.
[QUOTE=_charon;49828307]Zimmer said that the Commonwealth was a hellhole, except for the Institute, which he said was hidden and not open to outsiders. We got pretty much what he described.
I would've been happy if we got more Bladerunner cyberpunk, though. Where's That Gun gone off too, anyways?[/QUOTE]
That gun is one weapon I really miss from New Vegas, they even have a reference to Bladerunner on top of the [sp]Mass Fusion containment shed[/sp], would have been the perfect place to find it.
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49828437]
My point is not that their rate of advance is absurd, it's that they're even able to do they shit they do while supposedly being confined to a glorified basement.[/QUOTE]
If they can 3d laser print people I'm pretty sure they can do the same with fancy synth components and what-have-you.
I mean, where are they getting their silicon from?
[t]http://garethnunns.com/silicon/silicon_files/Macraes-mines.jpg[/t]
Or their iron ore?
[t]http://www.wallstreetdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/7-7-iron-ore.jpg[/t]
Or any of the other variety of raw materials required for producing robots? Lubricant? Coolant? Assuming they're nuclear powered like everything, where are they getting the nuclear material? Are they just [I]scavenging[/I] all this? If so, why isn't the Commonwealth stripped clean of anything containing these materials?
The only thing that's really a mystery is how exactly the super structure was started, but I certainly don't think it's far-fetched to believe that the original staff that took shelter in the basement were all unprepared for a nuclear apocalypse. After all, being the geniuses that started the foundation, they probably adequately prepared, and gathered the necessary resources and means to be self-sufficient in some manner.
An assaultron can be found in one portion of the Institute, so maybe before synths, the Institute used regular robots to help gather certain things from the outside. That's pure speculation though just on the basis that a regular robot can be found inside, it might just be there just for combat sake, and nothing more.
[QUOTE=El Burro;49828461]That gun is one weapon I really miss from New Vegas, they even have a reference to Bladerunner on top of the [sp]Mass Fusion containment shed[/sp], would have been the perfect place to find it.[/QUOTE]
I thought Covenant was a nice way to reference Blade Runner in a subtle way.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;49828463]If they can 3d laser print people I'm pretty sure they can do the same with fancy synth components and what-have-you.[/QUOTE]
That's totally beside the point, because we don't even remotely know how something like that works, and [I]where the fuck are they getting the material for all this?[/I]
[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49828466]I mean, where are they getting their silicon from?
Or their iron ore?
Or any of the other variety of raw materials required for producing robots? Lubricant? Coolant? Assuming they're nuclear powered like everything, where are they getting the nuclear material? Are they just [I]scavenging[/I] all this? If so, why isn't the Commonwealth stripped clean of anything containing these materials?[/QUOTE]
This is the point where the answer just stops being grounded in reality and starts being just "it's science fiction."
It's made up science. The exact way that the resources are gathered don't matter as much as the fact they have the technology and means to gather them.
This is a universe where nuclear fusion was achieved and successfully packed in a power cell the size of a soda can, with no proper explanation given on how this was achieved. There is such a thing as fetching too far for details.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828476]
It's made up science. The exact way that the resources are gathered don't matter as much as the fact they have the technology and means to gather them.
[/QUOTE]
yeah that's lazy
it's not like you're wrong, but blanks like this in bethesda's writing/world building is exactly why their factions never come across as natural as other factions in the fallout universe
[QUOTE=WillerinV1.02;49828488]yeah that's lazy
it's not like you're wrong, but blanks like this in bethesda's writing is exactly why their factions never come across as natural as other factions in the fallout universe[/QUOTE]
Unless it is the actual focus of the story, "where were the resources gathered" is rarely if ever something that's brought up in science fiction, because it's entirely unimportant and swept under the rug for that reason.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828476]
they have the technology and means to gather them.
[/QUOTE]
[I]From where?[/I]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828476]This is the point where the answer just stops being grounded in reality and starts being just "it's science fiction."
It's made up science. The exact way that the resources are gathered don't matter as much as the fact they have the technology and means to gather them.
This is a universe where nuclear fusion was achieved and successfully packed in a power cell the size of a soda can, with no proper explanation given on how this was achieved. There is such a thing as fetching too far for details.[/QUOTE]
Plausibility and internal consistency are completely valid though. The Fallout world stretches beyond belief, yes, but in ways that are pretty clearly established. They can miniaturize nuclear fusion, but nowhere else has anyone proven themselves able to pull a fucking robot army out of their assholes.
[editline]28th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828498]Unless it is the actual focus of the story, "where were the resources gathered" is rarely if ever something that's brought up in science fiction, because it's entirely unimportant and swept under the rug for that reason.[/QUOTE]
Resource gathering is focused on so much in this game that it's literally a damn game mechanic.
Okay, let me put this straight.
Nobody, not the writer or the average reader/player/viewer, gives half a shit about [I]where[/I] resources come from, if that's not the obvious focus of the story. That's literally the last thing that anyone would want to spend time elaborating, unless it's crucial to the understanding of the plot.
Mad Max, just like the world of Fallout, revolves around natural resources running out. So it's important when the movies start mentioning where gasoline or similar natural resources come from. It's crucial to the plot to know that there are places like gastown that are rich as fuck since they're the only oil refinery that actually has access to oil around. It's crucial to the plot to know that Bartertown relies on pig shit for power.
It is [I]not crucial[/I] or important at all to know where the Institute gets their iron and silicone and carbon and any other materials they may use, so it's stupid to expect the writers to have gone this far to explain something this minor. If the institute made extensive use of gasoline, [I]then[/I] it would be necessary to explain how they got it because in the universe of Fallout it's actually a big deal that gasoline practically stopped existing due to the resource crisis. Except they don't use gasoline, they use fusion power which the game makes clear is a common resource that anyone can get their hands on thanks to the (also unexplained sci-fi devices) fusion cells.
What is important, is that we know they can do it, and that this capacity is shown. What is important is that they have the capacity to gather these resources, not where they get them from.
Resource gathering is important [I]for the player[/I] because [I]the player[/I] is a scavenger who survives in a fucked up environment, where resources are scarce. They are [I]not the Institute[/I].
Worth nothing the Enclave somehow managed to build an army's worth of next generation vertibirds and advanced power armor while isolated on an oil rig.
I'd say they and the Institute probably did it the same way - military supply caches. Enclave obviously had access to that kind of thing, and I wouldn't be surprised if the CIT had some secret government projects they could pull resources from.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828518]Okay, let me put this straight.
Nobody, not the writer or the average reader/player/viewer, gives half a shit about [I]where[/I] resources come from, if that's not the obvious focus of the story. That's literally the last thing that anyone would want to spend time elaborating, unless it's crucial to the understanding of the plot.
[/QUOTE]
it's pretty crucial when you're designing a world, though
you don't need to have stuff like that literally delivered to the player with exposition chunks, but having logical explanations for stuff like (among other things) access to resources is pretty damn important in a fictional world, sci-fi or not
maybe electricsquid is referring to something entirely different, but to me being able to logically draw conclusions to how a faction came about is incredibly important to me, and i just can't do that with the institute
i think you're taking his complaints too literally and attacking him as if he wants detailed write-ups on how the institute gets their resources. i think he's more or less just complaining that this stuff wasn't thought through enough, even if it's not important for the players immediate understanding
Keep in mind that this kind of logic is why the question "what do they eat" can be double edged when it comes to fiction. If the story is so heavily focused on survival of the individual, then this question needs to be answered - it's why people found it so jarring that Megaton didn't have visibly food supplies, and why Diamond City has a farm inside its own walls. When the story isn't about that, then the question isn't important and can be ignored without hurting the plot.
Seeing as the Institute (or Fallout 4 for that matter) isn't about the struggle of finding silicon and iron and the difficulty of building factories that produce microprocessors, it's expected of the writers to not delve that deep into these aspects of the story, and to instead focus more on the fact that the Institute doesn't have to struggle on a day to day basis when the rest of the world does.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828404]All of the "industrial" portions are out of sight (see how you can visit the synth creation chamber, but not the place where the newly created synths go), which obviously includes manufactures and such things.[/quote]
Okay, that point actually is actually beginning to convince me. if the Institute has miles of manufacturing facilities hidden in the walls, well, i could believe that. it would make much more sense to me if there were a factory wing we could explore, but i can settle for that.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49828545] When the story isn't about that, then the question isn't important and can be ignored without hurting the plot.[/QUOTE]
video games aren't like movies or books, though. the plot isn't the only thing driving the game forward. in fact, to some, it's one of the least important aspects of a video game. especially in bethbyro games, a rich setting with proper world building is actually the main appeal to some people.
in an open world game with an emphasis on exploring the world and learning about it's inhabitants, almost every question is important.
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