[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591088]Caravans are a lot more common than power armor so it makes sense that their reaction to caravans is a bit more orderly than their reaction to a guy in power armor.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think you thought this sentence through because it's actually the opposite of what you meant
Power armor being hi-tech, uncommon technology is way more scarier and intimidating than guys walking around with brahmins and pipe pistols
Power Armor isn't [I]that[/I] scary in-universe. It's an uncommon sight but it's not some crazy out-of-this-world shit that they've never seen before.
Again, the only reason why the protag is such a badass is because the player's controlling them. Any NPC in that situation would get fucked up really badly, see how Danse lost several men to raiders and ghouls despite everyone donning power armor.
A caravan is a bigger threat than a single man in power armor because the caravan's got strength in numbers alone. Raiders are used to caravans kicking ass. Power Armor isn't as big a threat when it's only one man, and raiders aren't used to seeing them regularly so they're confident in attacking them.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591107]I don't think you thought this sentence through because it's actually the opposite of what you meant
Power armor being hi-tech, uncommon technology is way more scarier and intimidating than guys walking around with brahmins and pipe pistols[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Raiders risk their lives ever time they go raiding, a caravan guard with a pipe pistol can kill you easy enough when you've got cloth and leather for armour and no head protection beyond a gasmask (which is probably made from a sack and a hose). If they manage to kill a guy in Power Armour they could take it for themselves and be safer in their raiding. We already know some raiders have the know how to fix up PA, it's not unreasonable to assume some of them killed the previous owner to take it.
Raiding is all risk vs reward, and while Power Armour is a huge risk it's also the biggest reward.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591137]Power Armor isn't [I]that[/I] scary in-universe. It's an uncommon sight but it's not some crazy out-of-this-world shit that they've never seen before.
Again, the only reason why the protag is such a badass is because the player's controlling them. Any NPC in that situation would get fucked up really badly, see how Danse lost several men to raiders and ghouls despite everyone donning power armor.[/QUOTE]
It's more scarier than caravan and caravan guards. Danse losing that many people in power armor makes no goddamn sense, you can stand with power armor without shooting in the middle of ghouls and it will take ages for them to actually start threatening you, and it has nothing to do with you being the player character hardening your power armor or nothing of sort
You're doing a lot of mental gymnastics to justify raiders that are dumb enough to attack me and my companion while i'm decking an entire armory in our pockets, or raiders attacking my settlements armed to the teeth and better than any other place not called Diamond City around, but they're suddenly smart and civil enough to take bribes from or being afraid of caravaneers walking around with brahmins and improvised weaponry
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591165]Raiding is all risk vs reward, and while Power Armour is a huge risk it's also the biggest reward.[/QUOTE]
A trading caravan full of not only weapons but food, water, medicine, materials and other essential stuff seems more like a reward than two guys in power armor (which you will have to destroy to put them down - and it won't be easy) carrying bobbleheads and magazines
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591137]Power Armor isn't [I]that[/I] scary in-universe. It's an uncommon sight but it's not some crazy out-of-this-world shit that they've never seen before.
Again, the only reason why the protag is such a badass is because the player's controlling them. Any NPC in that situation would get fucked up really badly, see how Danse lost several men to raiders and ghouls despite everyone donning power armor.
A caravan is a bigger threat than a single man in power armor because the caravan's got strength in numbers alone. Raiders are used to caravans kicking ass. Power Armor isn't as big a threat when it's only one man, and raiders aren't used to seeing them regularly so they're confident in attacking them.[/QUOTE]
It's also a plot point in New Vegas that the Brotherhood lost their war against the NCR because they were completely outnumbered. Having laser rifles and Power Armour is great, but when you're one dude in PA and you have to fight 20, 30, even 50 guys with guns and conventional armour you stand little chance of survival.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591177]It's also a plot point in New Vegas that the Brotherhood lost their war against the NCR because they were completely outnumbered. Having laser rifles and Power Armour is great, but when you're one dude in PA and you have to fight 20, 30, even 50 guys with guns and conventional armour you stand little chance of survival.[/QUOTE]
The Brotherhood was completely outnumbered against the biggest and better military force in the entire new world and still made a decent stand exactly because they had power armor and superior weaponry
Please don't tell me you're comparing raiders to NCR rangers
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591180]The Brotherhood was completely outnumbered against the biggest and better military force in the entire new world and still made a decent stand exactly because they had power armor and superior weaponry
Please don't tell me you're comparing raiders to NCR rangers[/QUOTE]
The biggest and better military force in their home turf back on NCR territory sure, but the troops sent to the mojave have [I]shit[/I] for equipment. They're given the worst guns and the worst uniforms with trash ammunition.
Not to mention the fact that most NCR troops aren't that well trained and are kind of the surplus shit that the government can't station on their own territory, meanwhile the BOS runs all of their members through combat sims and they still got owned.
Keep in mind that power armor isn't a decisive advantage. NCR has already proved you can win with numbers alone when they took on the Enclave in Navarro and stomped the BoS to a faction of themselves.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591168]
A trading caravan full of not only weapons but food, water, materials and other essential stuff seems more like a reward than two guys in power armor (which you will have to destroy to put them down - and it won't be easy) carrying bobbleheads and magazines[/QUOTE]
First off, you're assuming raiders ever know what they're going to get when they take someone on. A lot of the time a caravan will have good stuff but they will also carry useless shit all the time. There's no reason to assume people in Power Armour would have anything worse, besides the objective is to take the armour and weapons.
Also, you need to stop acting like a dick. "You're doing a lot of mental gymnastics" Fuck off. Raiders are stupid enough to attack you in Power Armour in EVERY Fallout game. Get Power Armour in Fallout one and you'll still run into raiders in the open world. Don't act like it's some new flaw that's too glaring to overlook.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591190]The biggest and better military force in their home turf back on NCR territory sure, but the troops sent to the mojave have [I]shit[/I] for equipment. They're given the worst guns and the worst uniforms with trash ammunition.[/QUOTE]
The stand on Helios One predates the first battle for Hoover Dam, when the NCR still had enough competent personnel to "invade" the mojave and taking their positions. It was later, when they decided to hang around and push for more territory, that they started taking rookies wearing the shittiest equipment they could give with little to no training, [I]which is still better than your average raider anyway[/I]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591195]First off, you're assuming raiders ever know what they're going to get when they take someone on. A lot of the time a caravan will have good stuff but they will also carry useless shit all the time. There's no reason to assume people in Power Armour would have anything worse, besides the objective is to take the armour and weapons.
Also, you need to stop acting like a dick. "You're doing a lot of mental gymnastics" Fuck off. Raiders are stupid enough to attack you in Power Armour in EVERY Fallout game. Get Power Armour in Fallout one and you'll still run into raiders in the open world. Don't act like it's some new flaw that's too glaring to overlook.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you get the point of both being a dick (somehow telling me to fuck off is okay but "mental gymnastics" is an offense) and raiders dumb enough to attack people in power armor wouldn't hold off attacking caravans, but okay
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591180]The Brotherhood was completely outnumbered against the biggest and better military force in the entire new world and still made a decent stand exactly because they had power armor and superior weaponry
Please don't tell me you're comparing raiders to NCR rangers[/QUOTE]
The Brotherhood lost the Helios power plant to the NCR forces in New Vegas, who have fucking terrible weapons and equipment and most of the grunts get 2 weeks worth of training. It doesn't take much to beat Power Armour. The reason it was effective before the Great War was because the American military had millions of people in Power Armour among their regular troops, large numbers and support, the Brotherhood (and you in game) have none of that.
Even then, the BOS lost to a bunch of dudes wearing cloth and using firearms, while themselves wearing high tech maintained power armor and using energy weapons.
Power Armor is nothing else but a motorized mobile coffin if you consider it a one man fortress, and even though raiders are dumb drug addicts, they're still aware of that.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591223]Even then, the BOS lost to a bunch of dudes wearing cloth and using firearms, while themselves wearing high tech maintained power armor and using energy weapons.[/QUOTE]
Too bad there's a difference between basic armor and service rifles and ranger armor and brush guns, but sure, it's all "cloth and firearms" anyway. There's also a difference between a trained army attacking a vital outpost with a bunch of raiders in a camp attacking someone, but why bother?
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591222]The Brotherhood lost the Helios power plant to the NCR forces in New Vegas, who have fucking terrible weapons and equipment and most of the grunts get 2 weeks worth of training. It doesn't take much to beat Power Armour. The reason it was effective before the Great War was because the American military had millions of people in Power Armour among their regular troops, large numbers and support, the Brotherhood (and you in game) have none of that.[/QUOTE]
see
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591203]The stand on Helios One predates the first battle for Hoover Dam, when the NCR still had enough competent personnel to "invade" the mojave and taking their positions. It was later, when they decided to hang around and push for more territory, that they started taking rookies wearing the shittiest equipment they could give with little to no training, [I]which is still better than your average raider anyway[/I][/QUOTE]
Both you and Ganerumo are using the NCR situation from when you start New Vegas as a comparison, which is wrong
The NCR took Helios One way before that. With their good troops.
The size and scope isn't the same but 10 to 15 raiders attacking 1 guy in Power Armor is pretty comparable to 70 to 85 NCR troopers attacking 20 guys in Power Armor.
Also NCR Trooper uniforms are just cloth, sometimes with a slightly thicker fabric chestplate. Ranger patrol armor is made of plates of complex polymers and ceramics designed to actually stop bullets. Ranger armor (the coat one) just straight up has a metal chestplate.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591250]The size and scope isn't the same but 10 to 15 raiders attacking 1 guy in Power Armor is pretty comparable to 70 to 85 NCR troopers attacking 20 guys in Power Armor.
Also NCR Trooper uniforms are just cloth, sometimes with a slightly thicker fabric chestplate. Ranger patrol armor is made of plates of complex polymers and ceramics designed to actually stop bullets. Ranger armor (the coat one) just straight up has a metal chestplate.[/QUOTE]
Rangers also have top tier military training, support and tactics, unlike your average dumb raider
Unless they're now smart enough to match an army with their tactics. Make up your mind.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591240]Too bad there's a difference between basic armor and service rifles and ranger armor and brush guns, but sure, it's all "cloth and firearms" anyway. There's also a difference between a trained army attacking a vital outpost with a bunch of raiders in a camp attacking someone, but why bother?[/QUOTE]
The Rangers didn't take Helios One, Operation Sunburst was undertaken by the rank and file of the NCR, so it literally was basic armour and service rifles.
I wanna see a mod where you can assign factions to settlements, unlocking some bonuses in that specific settlement. Could be more defense for the camp with guards (BOS/gen1/2/railroad heavies,etc), new buildings/workshops, like cybernetic limbs or better mods for a specific weapon, new building types, etc. Their scavenging stations could get you different kind of ressources too, depending on what they look for.
Then the opposing factions could try and retake it when you fail to save them.
Also, let us recruit the intimidated enemies.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591274]The rangers didn't take Helios One, Operation Sunburst was undertaken by the rank and file of the NCR, so it literally was basic armour and service rifles.[/QUOTE]
Helios was taken before the NCR stablishing themselves in McCarran and Golf, and troops from there where relocated to the first battle of Hoover Dam, which left the place unprotected and understaffed as the troopers in there admit themselves. They still had all their good troops in the move, if you have anything in game to prove me wrong then i'd love to see it.
I'm not sure where you got the part where Operation Sunburst was fought by rangers. It was an overwhelming wave of NCR grunts storming the place and kicking the BOS out by sheer force of numbers alone.
[url]http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Operation:_Sunburst[/url]
Also, first the battle for hoover dam was [I]not[/I] the point where the NCR started walking into the Mojave. They were there before. The battle was the point where the Legion tried to take the dam and failed. The NCR was in control of Hoover Dam as early as [url=http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline#2274]2274[/url], two years before Operation: Sunburst.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591289]I'm not sure where you got the part where Operation Sunburst was fought by rangers. It was an overwhelming wave of NCR grunts storming the place and kicking the BOS out by sheer force of numbers alone.[/QUOTE]
They still had the rangers around, they had started their occupation thanks to the leniency of House allowing them to settle in McCarran, they had no reason not to use their rangers and Hanlon comments on the battle.
Nothing comments on them using the understaffed and untrained grunts either (which they weren't understaffed at this point - again, this starts at the same time as New Vegas, as a measure of the NCR boosting their ranks in the Mojave for the preparation of the second Hoover Dam battle)
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591289]Also, first the battle for hoover dam was [I]not[/I] the point where the NCR started walking into the Mojave[/QUOTE]
I never said it was. They couldn't get to Hoover Dam without crossing the Mojave anyway.
But the battle wasn't fought solely with rangers, most of the troops were just soldiers.
Rangers aren't trained for these situations and are too valuable to be sent on the front line. The majority of the soldiers who were sent to storm Helios ONE were grunts.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49591288]Helios was taken before the NCR stablishing themselves in McCarran and Golf, and troops from there where relocated to the first battle of Hoover Dam, which left the place unprotected and understaffed as the troopers in there admit themselves. They still had all their good troops in the move, if you have anything in game to prove me wrong then i'd love to see it.[/QUOTE]
What? The first thing the NCR did in the Mojave was establish the New Vegas Treaty and set up a headquarters at Camp MCCarren. Did you even talk to the Brotherhood in New Vegas? They thought they could avoid conflict with the NCR because they had abstained from the Brotherhood-NCR war but the NCR needed power more than they needed the Brotherhood to be friendly. Also the majority of the troopers at Hoover Dam are just grunts with basic armour and service rifles.
The Rangers aren't a primary fighting force, they don't go on raids or into front line battles, they organise themselves and they conduct their own operations.
The rangers make the point multiple times that they're not trained, nor do they want to fight on the front line.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591329]But the battle wasn't fought solely with rangers, most of the troops were just soldiers.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591336]The Rangers aren't a primary fighting force, they don't go on raids or into front line battles, they organise themselves and they conduct their own operations.[/QUOTE]
The NCR doesn't use squads of nothing but rangers, of course it wasn't all rangers attacking and i never said that. I said rangers were there, and they had no reason not to, and nothing ingame says they weren't. And a single Ranger can make a brutal difference in a fight - commented several times all over the game.
And the NCR isn't all Rangers or grunts. The First Recon squad was also avaliable at the time and it would make a damn good difference. Another point that the raiders in the commonwealth (remember how this was the initial point of the conversation before you guys comparing them to the NCR?) wouldn't have.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49591336]Also the majority of the troopers at Hoover Dam are just grunts with basic armour and service rifles.[/QUOTE]
You are again using the status of the NCR forces as we start the game as a basis to the status of the initial NCR invading force
The grunts with poor equipment and no training are a recent thing, the NCR trying desperately to get more troops to spread themselves over the mojave in preparation for the second hoover dam battle. [I]This wasn't the situation when they first entered the mojave[/I].
The point being that the technological and training gap between the average BOS initiate and the average NCR trooper is more than significant, but the NCR won by just outnumbering them, because Power Armor and Gauss rifles don't make you invulnerable again fifteen dudes, let alone ninety.
Whether the rangers were there or not is irrelevant. The BOS lost by ways of overconfidence, poor tactics and smaller numbers. Back to Fallout 4, raiders would typically win against a single guy in Power Armor for the exact same reason.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591396]The point being that the technological and training gap between the average BOS initiate and the average NCR trooper is more than significant, but the NCR won by just outnumbering them, because Power Armor and Gauss rifles don't make you invulnerable again fifteen dudes, let alone ninety.[/QUOTE]
And the point was that you don't get attacked by ninety NCR soldiers with military training in the commonwealth for a power station so attacking the dude in power armor seems more feasible than attacking the caravaneers passing around with leather armor and pipe weaponry
You were the one who started the NCR=Raiders comparison and you still didn't justified how it would be so more sensible for them to attack people in power armor and gauss rifles instead of five guys and a brahmin
Because it's ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. At most, TWO.
A brahmin caravan has, on top of the merchant, at least THREE MERCS. Places like Bunker Hill make it clear that caravans that you don't get to see have a lot more armor and weapons to defend themselves.
Being in Power Armor or using a big mean gun doesn't mean shit if you're alone. You're still an easy target. Four people using pipe guns and wearing leather armor are more dangerous simply because there's more of them. That's four time more bullets coming at you at any given second during a firefight.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49591427]Because it's ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL. At most, TWO.
A brahmin caravan has, on top of the merchant, at least THREE MERCS. [/QUOTE]
Two heavily armed individuals against four guys with shitty weapons
The raiders aren't alone either. If they can risk attacking two guys in power armor they can attack three mercs and a brahmin as well.
I'm not saying it's impossible for raiders to attack people in power armor. I just want to know how this makes okay in any sense for them to not attack caravans too
Because Caravans are bigger, part of larger groups, and just in general a much bigger threat to take on than a single dolt wandering alone (or with a single friend).
Moreover, armor alone (and armor being just that, armor), raiders can't judge from ten meters away if your gun is more or less dangerous than theirs. I sincerely doubt the average drug addict raider gives a fuck if you're holding a pipe gun or a 10mm pistol or a plasma rifle, it's a gun that shoots death dealing projectiles and they happen to also have (more) guns.
There's also the concept of repercussions. Caravans move in small groups but are usually part of a larger infrastructure. The covenant quest is entirely based around the fact that there's people closely watching caravans move in and out, so the instant one of them goes missing, you have several people who are going to start looking for them, and that's more trouble than it's worth for the average raider.
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