[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49598253]Activision does the day one DLC, preorder bonuses, Day One Purchase Editions, onslaught of shitty DLC and such things all the time. That's what their business model is based on, and their primary consumer base [I]is[/I] the console market.
Bethesda does none of that. The most they do with DLC is season passes, which are large expansions released over a large period of time and not shitty cashgrabs most of the time.
As for Dishonored, the game differs drastically from all the conventions that publishers like Activision or EA or Ubisoft try to shove in games because it statistically increases the profit on those games. It's a title made by a small dev team that's been allowed to do pretty much anything they want (a dev team that activision would have disbanded a long time ago, if they were the publisher), released as such, with clearly no intention to make it a best seller.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Bethesda Softworks doesn't copy Activision's exact business plan doesn't preclude them from deliberately attempting to give their games mainstream appeal. Lots of mainstream games aren't exploitatively sold in chunks the way Call of Duty is, and that doesn't make them not mainstream in their design.
Big publishers can capitalize on different demographics with different games made by different studios. The same Ubisoft that published Child of Light and Valiant Hearts is the same Ubisoft that publishes an Assassin's Creed game every year, for example. Again, the fact that Bethesda published the more casualcore-oriented Dishonored means nothing.
What advantages does the dialogue wheel offer in comparison to the comprehensive list system used in previous Fallout games? Because it actually does have a few, if you look at it from the right perspective. The dialogue wheel ruins your ability to roleplay, limits player choice, and it hides the details behind opaque one-line summaries like SARCASTIC.
But...
It's easy to hop in and out of.
The short summaries are easy to parse.
It doesn't require a lot of thinking because none of your dialogue choices have any consequence anyway.
And each option maps to the face buttons on a typical controller.
The kind of gamer that such a design would appeal to would be a gamer that doesn't like thinking for long stretches of time, doesn't really care for roleplaying, doesn't really care for dialogue either, appreciates any quality-of-life features meant to expedite dialogue so they can get back to the shooting and looting, and plays games with a controller. And if that kind of gamer sounds like a caricature of a mainstream console gamer as imagined by a marketing executive, then you'd be right. Combine that with their massive marketing campaign and the fact that their choices earned them a billion dollars and the kinds of conclusions to draw from that are really limited quite frankly.
If they don't like roleplaying. THEN DON'T GO OUT AND BUY A ROLEPLAYING GAME.
They shouldn't be toning down the RPG elements in a RPG just to appeal to people that don't like RPGs.
But the fact that every Bethesda game since Oblivion has been a financial success proves that they don't need to simplify their games to get an audience.
The simplification/streamlining of some of the game's aspects come from internal decisions that have nothing to do with appealing to a broader audience.
With regards to DLC and the Season Pass: Something akin to the Borderlands 2 Headhunter packs would be alright if the writing is good and the actual content is fun and all. As long as it isn't like Saints Row The Third with themed item packs being released weekly. True, no one would be forcing me to buy them, but the fact that, say, a clothing pack that makes you look slightly like Strong that slightly increases favor gains with it exists would just be terrible.
Cosmetic and small DLC is completely invalidated by the presence of modding, and Bethesda understood this back in Oblivion. That's a mistake they'll never make again.
Yeah.
They can just try charging for mods again.
Wow the Rocket's Red Glare quest has some bullshit spawning. After placing explosives charges in the Prydwen, I take the ladder down to the main deck to escape and I literally spawn right in front of Maxson and two knights with laser gatlings. I couldn't do anything without TGM-ing my way behind cover.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49598649]But the fact that every Bethesda game since Oblivion has been a financial success proves that they don't need to simplify their games to get an audience.
The simplification/streamlining of some of the game's aspects come from internal decisions that have nothing to do with appealing to a broader audience.[/QUOTE]
But there are different gradations of financial success. Bethesda could have released a mechanically deep and complex Fallout 4 and it would have been a financial success, but it wouldn't have been as big of a financial success as a simpler and more straightforward Fallout 4--or so the people holding the purse strings at Zenimax may fear. They aren't deciding to make money because they need to, they're deciding to make [I]more[/I] money because they [I]want[/I] to.
I've explained my rationale for why I think the dialogue wheel was a gameplay feature meant to appeal to the tastes of mainstream audiences. You're free to explain [I]why[/I] you think the dialogue wheel is a misunderstood attempt of artistry that has nothing to do mass market appeal.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49598475][sp]You can never lose dogmeat as a companion.[/sp][/QUOTE]
oh right, thank you.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9p-jSUHjd8Q[/media]
I've got word of another insensitive statement that needs your help.
Bethesda didn't change Fallout 4's gameplay systems to 'dumb it down for the casual audience', they changed them because they try to implement features from popular games they like. There's nothing wrong with emulating other game's good feature, the problem comes from Bethesda's horrible implementation of those systems.
Like Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol are both great RPGs with limited dialogue options (wheel in ME, face buttons in AP), the thing is those are character focused RPGs where you play a set, in-universe character and you influence how they act. Fallout is a world focused RPG where you play as whatever you want and player freedom is key. Fallout 4 struggles with the two as tried to make a world like the old Fallouts (and did slightly better than 3) but also a character like Mass Effect, which are completely incompatible.
There are a lot of small conflicts like that. A lot of people can't get past those problems and the rest just a accept them as being okay but not great.
I guess it could be said that you can make who ever you want. But you must play as who they want you to play as.
[B]WHERE IS SHAUN![/B]
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;49598919]I guess it could be said that you can make who ever you want. But you must play as who they want you to play as.
[B]WHERE IS SHAUN![/B][/QUOTE]
you can make whoever you want (into the same character)
if you've ever wanted to see Solid Snake as a grieving widower boy is this the game for you!
[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;49598571]The fact that Bethesda Softworks doesn't copy Activision's exact business plan doesn't preclude them from deliberately attempting to give their games mainstream appeal. Lots of mainstream games aren't exploitatively sold in chunks the way Call of Duty is, and that doesn't make them not mainstream in their design.
[/QUOTE]
i'm pretty sure they learned from skyrim and fallout NV's preorder DLCs, people didn't like them and it got them bad press so they didn't waste their time on them.
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;49598919]I guess it could be said that you can make who ever you want. But you must play as who they want you to play as.
[B]WHERE IS SHAUN![/B][/QUOTE]
You're free to end our relationship anytime, we'll be only friends as before.
Babe.
[QUOTE=Lomme;49598153][video=youtube;hiFlgMZlvig]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiFlgMZlvig[/video]
Help.[/QUOTE]
run towards them, then go around the buildings?
I can give a good example.
Lets compare meeting Benny in New Vegas and meeting Kellogg in Fallout 4.
Benny: You can be hostile, you can not trust him but still listen to him, or you can just stroll right into the lucky 38, being a little sarcastic and agree to take part in his plan. Sure he will just betray you. But still you have the choice because you are playing as who ever you want.
Kellogg: Every single response is hostile [sp]and always ends with a shootout.[/sp] What if I want to work with the Institute and Kellogg? What if I have nothing against him? All because the game wants me to be a vengeful parent.
[QUOTE=LolzMan1325;49595587]ok main story and brotherhood spoilers but
[sp]I was really disappointed that when Kellogg spoke out of Valentine that it was never brought up again. I would have loved a scene or mission where you had to fight Nick or hack him in order to get Kellogg out, with different endings depending on whether you kill or hack Nick, kinda like Paladin Danse's personal quest.[/sp][/QUOTE]
i'm pretty sure its meant to just be one last message [sp] all of the logs in kellogg's terminals and his memories pretty much point to him knowing he wasn't walking out of there [/sp] i wouldn't read too far into that
i would like to see some DLC that depends entirely on who you finish the game with, even if its just about who guards the quest hub, how you get there, and who gives you the quests
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;49599052]I can give a good example.
Lets compare meeting Benny in New Vegas and meeting Kellogg in Fallout 4.
Benny: You can be hostile, you can be weary but listen to him, or you can just stroll right into the lucky 38, being a little sarcastic and agree to take part in his plan. Sure he will just betray you. But still you have the choice because you are playing as who ever you want.
Kellogg: Every single response is hostile [sp]and always ends with a shootout.[/sp] What if I want to work with the Institute and Kellogg? What if I have nothing against him? All because the game wants me to be a vengeful parent.[/QUOTE]
It's funny because people complained about the player not having enough motivation to go after Benny, then Bethesda decided to take the completely opposed route: you(your player character) have a vendetta with Kellogg and you will kill him for it whether you(the player) care or not
Then they do stuff with the character that doesn't make any sense. Like, you want revenge for your dead wife. When not even a week after you got out of the vault you moved on and are fucking Piper/Curie/Cait.
or when you[sp]finally meet Shaun. You can just shoot him right in the head after talking to him. When the whole game up to that point was I NEED TO FIND MY BABY.[/sp]
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49599093]I thought [B]shooting you in the fucking head[/B] and [B]leaving you left for dead in a shallow grave[/B] is enough motivation to find him and find out what the fuck he wanted? :v:[/QUOTE]
that is always a great piece of writing, who gives a shit about the platinum chip, i just want to fuck him up (or if you're playing a female character, you can literally fuck him to death)
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49599093]I thought [B]shooting you in the fucking head[/B] and [B]leaving you left for dead in a shallow grave[/B] is enough motivation to find him and find out what the fuck he wanted? :v:[/QUOTE]
There's also the issue of mercenaries going after you for not fulfilling your delivery and all that jazz, but some people provided interesting arguments against it (like going after benny in his casino in Vegas right after being ambushed by him is not the best plan avaliable and maybe laying low and playing dead would be more prudent - of course that doesn't really work because Victor dug you up from your grave and House was the one who contracted you) and some really dumb (WHAT IF I JUST WANT TO LEAVE THE MOJAVE VIA THE MOJAVE OUTPOST AND NOT PLAY THE GAME I BOUGHT INSTEAD). And there are enough ways to deal with Benny to satisfy even the most sadistic and troubled player ("hey you shot me in the head, that's hot - let's fuck")
But with Kellogg, there's no room for arguments, because there are no variables - you will go after him, you will be angry with him, you will kill him, end of story.
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;49599115]Then they do stuff with the character that doesn't make any sense. Like, you want revenge for your dead wife. When not even a week after you got out of the vault you moved on and are fucking Piper/Curie/Cait.
or when you[sp]finally meet Shaun. You can just shoot him right in the head after talking to him. When the whole game so far to that point was. I NEED TO FIND MY BABY.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]It's like a mix of New Vegas and Fallout 4 if you do it that way.
"I'm looking for my baby in a Checkered Suit".[/sp]
I still wish there was a way to actually ally with Benny and stick to his plan throughout, to the point of preventing his treason entirely.
Then as you take the dam you cover him in tar, set him on fire and kick him off the cliff.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49599209]
Then as you take the dam you cover him in tar, set him on fire and kick him off the cliff.[/QUOTE]
Burned Man 2: Burned Harder?
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49599149]and even then you can just be like "lol i don't care he shot me, i'm back in the land of the living again, time to do what the fuck i want". it's such a good and open ended setup for a roleplaying character that's so fucking flexible, obsidian just fucking nailed it in new vegas.[/QUOTE]
i always forget about that one because yes-man is less irritating to talk to (which is saying quite a lot)
also after fallout 4's equivalent of yes-man, preston garvies being pointless, who else misses his killable, punch-able face or his "ok well that plan might be bad but its your call!" attitude!
[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49599093]i thought [B]shooting you in the fucking head[/B] and [B]leaving you left for dead in a shallow grave[/B] is enough motivation to find him and find out what the fuck he wanted? :v:[/QUOTE]
lets keep this on the groove, hey? smooth moves like [B][I]smooth little babies[/I][/B]
it felt nice knowing you didn't just have to kill him, that you could work with him, even though most of the time you did so you'd get fucked by him again.
you just have to murder kellogg straight up, can't pass a string of speech checks or something along the lines.
-snip-
Am I the only one who has a constant bug where the mysterious stranger shows up, spins a bit, looks around, and the little gitar string plays. but he does not shoot at all and the enemy still has to be dealt with?
It's a shame that we as the players can mod the game to our liking to the point where we actually enjoy it, but for the most part we can't do the same for Bethesda's shitty kindergarten-level writing.
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