Undertale megathread v4 - An award winning RPG where nobody has to get hurt. YES, that STILL include

[Helari]

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;49584471]I cannot believe how much my opinion of this game changed in just forty minutes.

Up until Hotland, I was liking the experience very much. I thought the characters were completely unsubtle and had a terrible tendency of just telling you their backstories (seems to me like the writing for this game has a message and is deathly afraid you don't get it) but I was liking the design and the soundtrack.

But after the [sp]whole reveal with Alphys and the fact the entire level was her wanting to be a part of your journey[/sp], everything became 100% hollow and unlikable. [sp]For starters, I didn't like Alphys and her constant interruptions with social media messages, it just felt to me like another 'shut in geek' stereotype (see: Super Paper Mario for almost the same character). But then knowing that the past forty minutes of mildly interesting puzzles and the Mettaton joke wearing progressively thin were all because she wanted to feel important[/sp] made me go from 'this game is okay' to 'wow this is bad'.

When the [sp]EXP IS ACTUALLY EXECUTION POINTS thing happened, it felt like the writer was harping on the same string over and over. When games like Bioshock and Spec Ops: The Line did the 'recontextualize the player's actions as a deconstruction of the genre' twist, they did it in a way where it stood on its own and actually reinforced the overall message, which had been delivered (up until the twist) in a subtle way. But when Undertale did it, it felt like the whole story was nothing more than a weak build up to a twist that goes 'isn't this clever'?[/sp]

I understand why people like this game, but as someone who loves well-told narratives, I can't love it, let alone like it. This game's use of exposition dumps and characters loudly stating their intentions often sounds like bad fanfic backed by the most superficial use of internet humor.

And the fact of the matter is that over half of this game is humor being used to deliver an emotional story and message, so when the jokes don't land, all you get is this clever idea wrapped in awful delivery.

It's like a giant Tumblr post with [I]sentences like this[/I] [I][B]trying to make a POINT[/B][/I] based on two frames of an animated movie.[/QUOTE]

the game definitely has it's low points even though personally they were pretty easy to ignore because they came and went and i think ultimately the game wraps up p nicely. especially alphys does come off as pretty unlikeable especially in pacifist.

i wouldn't consider the exp shtick the games true twist or even the focus of the narrative really. it's more about choice without real repercussion [sp]ultimately leading to repercussion[/sp] emphasized by the saving/loading/reset mechanics. especially if you treat the games every ending as a single continuity. you're kind of going through the same as another character in the game did.

the wow killing is bad realisation is extremely boring but the game's story really has more imho.

[QUOTE=salty peanut v2;49584658]it's pretty clear this guy was intent on not liking the game from the start. move along people
[/QUOTE]

hey he's entitled to his opinion and i'd take someone discussing the game over reposts and meme adaptations anyday

[bisousbisous]

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/j9gv6aP.png[/IMG]

[Chris™]

I thought I'd share a little where I am with that little animation thing that I am doing, well kind of, to be honest I did do this bit yesterday, it's more a clean up of the sequence I did before, I would post something else from it but I don't want to ruin anything about it.

Anyway before:

[img]http://orig15.deviantart.net/e0af/f/2016/020/4/6/napainimation_by_chrisordie-d9oom7n.gif[/img]

After:

[img]http://orig05.deviantart.net/f546/f/2016/022/d/1/undertale_animation_work_in_progress_2_by_chrisordie-d9ovz3o.gif[/img]

It's been really fun to work on this, it's a lot of work but it's helping to keep my mind off things and I look forward to sharing the whole thing with everyone!

Anyway, sorry for interupting everyone.

[StrawberryClock]

[QUOTE=salty peanut v2;49584658]it's pretty clear this guy was intent on not liking the game from the start. move along people

[editline]22nd January 2016[/editline]

previous page:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/HEdMSAR.png[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Errrm, I don't agree with him but at least he took the time to explain. This thread is enough of a circlejerk about how much we all love the game, I think we can leave a little space for opinions we could potentially disagree with as long as we're all polite.

[red_pharoah]

[QUOTE=Chrisordie;49584708]I thought I'd share a little where I am with that little animation thing that I am doing, well kind of, to be honest I did do this bit yesterday, it's more a clean up of the sequence I did before, I would post something else from it but I don't want to ruin anything about it.

Anyway before:

[img]http://orig15.deviantart.net/e0af/f/2016/020/4/6/napainimation_by_chrisordie-d9oom7n.gif[/img]

After:

[img]http://orig05.deviantart.net/f546/f/2016/022/d/1/undertale_animation_work_in_progress_2_by_chrisordie-d9ovz3o.gif[/img]

It's been really fun to work on this, it's a lot of work but it's helping to keep my mind off things and I look forward to sharing the whole thing with everyone!

Anyway, sorry for interupting everyone.[/QUOTE]

This is nice, but the pencil could do with swinging a little bit faster. I don't know what software or how many frames/ frames per second you're using so i don't know how hard that is to fix

[editline]22nd January 2016[/editline]

or is that even a pencil? it's hard to tell

[Magikoopa24]

To me what the worst part of his post was that the game "locked you out" of the better endings if you killed something. The game itself never locked you out, it continued to play by the rules- its just that the world just reacted to how you were performing, and there's a big difference between the two.

Take Cave Story for example- in order to get the best ending, you must perform a series of slightly obtuse tasks in order to access the Final Cave instead of the regular dungeon. None of the actions performed prior to the Cave unlocking relate to it, just do them all and *click* its unlocked for you within the same door as the regular dungeon. The game itself just decided what you needed, not the world of it.

In undertale, the way to get the best ending relates to how you act (major pacifist spoilers)- [sp]if you kill, undyne will hear, and you can't be her friend. Without being her friend, you can't help Alphys reveal her past, and you can't enter the true lab. Now, what the True Lab has to do with fighting the True Final Boss, its never said, but presumably Flowey needed the determination and souls of the Amalgamates in order to become equal to a human's soul, so without those he couldn't access that form and went with Photoshop Flowey.[/sp]. In the end, the only thing that locked you out from the best ending is yourself, and even then you could just reset and rush through.

[salty peanut]

[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;49584733]Errrm, I don't agree with him but at least he took the time to explain. This thread is enough of a circlejerk about how much we all love the game, I think we can leave a little space for opinions we could potentially disagree with as long as we're all polite.[/QUOTE]

while I agree that dissenting opinions are refreshing he'll have to try a [I]little[/I] harder than comparing the game to a "giant tumblr post"

[RaTcHeT302]

[QUOTE=salty peanut v2;49584798]while I agree that dissenting opinions are refreshing he'll have to try a [I]little[/I] harder than comparing the game to a "giant tumblr post"[/QUOTE]

Nobody cares, post fan art and move on :v:

(I mean as long as no one ends up arguing for ten pages like usual anyway)

[Sgt. Napalm]

[QUOTE=Itszutak;49583218][sp]it took me 93 attempts

I bought a controller so I could use a d-pad for the fight

I bought a second controller because it turns out the steam controller didn't have a functional d-pad for this

I only had 1hp after the final thing[/sp][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Highwind017;49583727][sp]You've went past the point of no return, you might as well keep going and see what happens.

You can so it, knock his fuckin head off!

It look me like, 8 hours. Best to use a xbox controler if you need it.[/sp][/QUOTE]

I actually used both my controllers, my PS3 and Steam controllers, to do it. The Steam Controller's D-Pad takes a lot of getting used to, but eventually I reached parity on the with the PS3 controller using the SC. The trick (for me), was to set the D-Pad to activate on touch (not activate on click,) set the D-Pad mode to Cross Gate, and increase the deadzone. Now it's actually incredibly functional.

...Problem is, even with "traditional" controllers, I'm just way, WAY better with a keyboard. With a keyboard I can keep all four fingers on the arrow keys, as opposed to the one thumb being responsible for all 4 movements. This allows me to react to events quicker and overall makes me a more dexterous and precise player.

[sp]By the way, don't worry, I'm playing it up for laughs a bit. That fucking skeleton is going down.[/sp]

[arlygoodbrownie]

[QUOTE=Doom64hunter;49572501]I can't understand how this puzzle is so hard for people to do. Maybe I'm just really good at memorizing music.[/QUOTE]

I've been doing music for ~9 years now. I hated that puzzle. It required me memorizing the tune, and memorizing which key played what on the piano. Which would be easy, but because of how arbitrary the notes on the piano are arranged compared to an actual piano, it just got me stuck. I knew what I had to do, but couldn't be assed to sit there and fumble through which note was which arrow. So, I just looked up the button combination.

[Sgt. Napalm]

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;49584575][sp]However, in Spec Ops, the act of forcing you is supposed to be a commentary on the assumed nature of military shooters, and how they simplify, and in most cases, make a complete joke out of war. People complain about you not having a choice in Spec Ops, but I feel like that was the point: the fact you didn't have a choice was to put you in the mindset of the main character, to convey the issues he was going through. It serves the narrative and overall message.[/sp]

[sp]The reveal in Undertale, boringness of the pacifist run notwithstanding (I spent way too much time on Muffet for that to be considered a 'fun' boss fight), operates on a superficial level. It's the most basic deconstruction of RPG conventions. It's the same thing as me going 'hey, you kill so many monsters in RPG don't those monsters have families aren't you a bad person', where as the same thing in Spec Ops or Bioshock poses interesting questions not just about player's willingness to accept mechanical conventions, but also what does that willingness says about gaming narratives, protagonists, the real life consequences that get ignored by games...[/sp]

[sp]Think about how much the reveal recontextualizes your entire experience in Bioshock. It changes the game in a way that gives you a newfound sense of purpose for the latter portion of the game. In Undertale, the recontextualization of your actions serves as nothing more than a quirky reminder because not only does it matter little to nothing to the overall story of the main character, Flowey and the monsters, (the game locks you out of exploring other paths so you're pretty much stuck with the ending you got) but it also matters little to nothing to the player.[/sp]

[sp]What does knowing that the game acknowledges your senseless killing change for someone who already decided to go with the senseless killing despite the subtle warnings you mentioned? The logical response would be 'it makes them reconsider their choices, feel 'bad' about themselves and want to try again', but then the game actively locks you out of ever doing things again, which means all you're left with is a slap on the wrist and a half-delivered message. What's Undertale's everlasting impact for someone who 'followed the pre-established ideas of an RPG?' A 'you're a bad person' message? It sounds more to me like bad writing wanting to give off the feeling of a massive world changing idea without actually putting in the work to do it.[/sp][/QUOTE]

Very interesting. While playing Undertale, I very much got [sp]Spec Ops[/sp] vibes, a game I very much enjoyed. But I thought that this game explored many of the same concepts in a much, much more interesting manner. [sp]One of the major themes of that game was analyzing why the players had to continue in a game, or be a hero, even though bad consequences might result. Undertale made this a more resonant point with me by making me actually kill characters I cared and then making me deconstruct my own emotions... With Spec Ops it was kind of a boring brown shooter that didn't make me feel much aside from the plot. If Spec Ops didn't have the plot it would be a shit generic shooter. If Undertale didn't have the plot it would be a decent puzzle, RPG/Adventure, bullet-hell game.[/sp]

I'm running short on time but I'll go into more detail later if you want. I see where you're coming from but I walked away with the opposite conclusion; that Undertale addressed [sp]player agency and player choice on a meta level more intelligently than other games that tried.[/sp]

[Johnny on Flame]

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;49584575]<many opinions>[/QUOTE]

[sp]Alphys is a huge piece of shit and I'll give you that, but you're missing some of the biggest points of the game. It never actually locks you out of other routes, it even acknowledges some of your actions and calls you out on them, such as loading after killing Toriel.

That's actually one of the meta-game discussions that are brought up on the narrative. If you're savescumming to test every possibility, is this cool or are you being manipulative? Does that make you a psycho? What if characters could recall some/all of it? Is loading really erasing what you did?

You can always delete the files to truly erase what you did, but some of the subjects dealt in the narrative requires the load/save system to play along, and are not really save/load as expected.[/sp]

[RIPBILLYMAYS]

I have a question that I don't think has been answered for neutral runs.

[sp]How is Frisk able to pass through the barrier after beating Omega Flowey? The whole point of fighting Asgore was choosing whether or not you would take a monster soul so you could leave. Flowey destroys Asgore's soul before you can do anything with it as well. You don't retain any additional souls after beating Flowey, and the barrier is still up since you get the phone call at the end saying everyone is still trapped.[/sp]

[Kaelan Frey]

[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;49584959]I have a question that I don't think has been answered for neutral runs.

[sp]How is Frisk able to pass through the barrier after beating Omega Flowey? The whole point of fighting Asgore was choosing whether or not you would take a monster soul so you could leave. Flowey destroys Asgore's soul before you can do anything with it as well. You don't retain any additional souls after beating Flowey, and the barrier is still up since you get the phone call at the end saying everyone is still trapped.[/sp][/QUOTE]

It's ambiguous, no one really knows what happens next.

[Itachi_Crow]

[Sp]either frisks soul is strong enough to exit by their self or its a plot hole [/sp]

[Johnny on Flame]

[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;49584959]I have a question that I don't think has been answered for neutral runs.

[sp]How is Frisk able to pass through the barrier after beating Omega Flowey? The whole point of fighting Asgore was choosing whether or not you would take a monster soul so you could leave. Flowey destroys Asgore's soul before you can do anything with it as well. You don't retain any additional souls after beating Flowey, and the barrier is still up since you get the phone call at the end saying everyone is still trapped.[/sp][/QUOTE]

[sp]Well, I do recall Papyrus claiming that a soul strong enough could possibly cross the barrier.[/sp]

[Raxas]

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;49584471]I understand why people like this game, but as someone who loves well-told narratives, I can't love it, let alone like it.[/QUOTE]

If you're trying to make a point to people who like this game, then this sentence right here came on [i]way[/i] too strong.

[Magikoopa24]

[QUOTE=RIPBILLYMAYS;49584959]I have a question that I don't think has been answered for neutral runs.

[sp]How is Frisk able to pass through the barrier after beating Omega Flowey? The whole point of fighting Asgore was choosing whether or not you would take a monster soul so you could leave. Flowey destroys Asgore's soul before you can do anything with it as well. You don't retain any additional souls after beating Flowey, and the barrier is still up since you get the phone call at the end saying everyone is still trapped.[/sp][/QUOTE]

[Sp]I assumed that Flowey placed Frisk outside the barrier.[/sp]

[Mako]

It's also never shown that [sp]Frisk actually passed through the barrier, we only get to hear a phonecall from sans. for all we know frisk could be trapped in a limbo or whatever. Frisk also had the support of 7 human souls in the battle, what's saying that they didn't help him cross the barrier?[/sp]

[RIPBILLYMAYS]

[QUOTE=Max;49584997]It's also never shown that [sp]Frisk actually passed through the barrier, we only get to hear a phonecall from sans. for all we know frisk could be trapped in a limbo or whatever. Frisk also had the support of 7 human souls in the battle, what's saying that they didn't help him cross the barrier?[/sp][/QUOTE]

[sp]That would mean the phone call for Frisk is entirely in their head since they know who lives and who dies, but considering you never have to meet Alphys and she pops up in an ending I don't think that's the case. Beating Flowey restored the old save file and the world he replaced.

Flowey had several human souls, but not enough to destroy the barrier, and Alphys and I think some stuff on the history plaques explicitly say you need both a human and monster soul just to pass.

The biggest question is where the hell are Flowey and Frisk after their battle? In a true pacifist run you can go back the way you came, but not in a neutral run.[/sp]

[RocketRacer]

I hated Alphys when I played the game anyway, and I still don't really like her. My least favourite character I'd say.

[Sgt. Napalm]

She really grew on me, but not my favorite.

[Skyward]

I didn't mind Alphys as a character, I just think all of her jokes way outstay their welcome.

[G.I.U.L.I.O.]

Alphys least likeable character? Why does everybody shit on Alphys but not on Muffet who comes right out of fucking nowhere and cons you out of your hard-earned money?

I SPENT AN HOUR SELLING DOG RESIDUE FOR THAT MONEY, BITCH!

[red_pharoah]

I sort of related to her in some way, other than the anime thing, since I don't really watch them.

I found her annoying when I first played, but then I realized that I sometimes act that way myself, especially with the self loathing and awkwardness.

Which is sort of the point in my opinion, Alphys was there to prove that a character doesn't have to be interesting or likeable to be a good/ relatable character

[Sgt. Napalm]

[QUOTE=G.I.U.L.I.O.;49585188]Alphys least likeable character? Why does everybody shit on Alphys but not on Muffet who comes right out of fucking nowhere and cons you out of your hard-earned money?

I SPENT AN HOUR SELLING DOG RESIDUE FOR THAT MONEY, BITCH![/QUOTE]

I don't consider Muffet a core character.

[red_pharoah]

[QUOTE=G.I.U.L.I.O.;49585188]Alphys least likeable character? Why does everybody shit on Alphys but not on Muffet who comes right out of fucking nowhere and cons you out of your hard-earned money?

I SPENT AN HOUR SELLING DOG RESIDUE FOR THAT MONEY, BITCH![/QUOTE]

I'd say it's because Alphys keeps interrupting you all the way through Hotland+CORE, making all sorts of awkward comments, plus you don't get to fight Alphys.

I think Alphys' dislikeable nature was intentional, seeing as even she doesn't like herself

[editline]22nd January 2016[/editline]

Oh and Alphys' theme isn't catchy as hell. Muffet>Alphys

[RocketRacer]

[QUOTE=G.I.U.L.I.O.;49585188]Alphys least likeable character? Why does everybody shit on Alphys but not on Muffet who comes right out of fucking nowhere and cons you out of your hard-earned money?

I SPENT AN HOUR SELLING DOG RESIDUE FOR THAT MONEY, BITCH![/QUOTE]

alright, I like design of Muffet more. Plus she is a character you had to fight and that's what made her more memorable. I'm going into the 'danger dumb box zone' here but I'll just say my opinion and whatever you think. I like Muffet more because of character design and because she had a very cool boss fight and really nice soundtrack mixed all together. Even though I had some trouble with the boss fight I still liked it. All Alphys did was to stand in my way of trying to explore Hotlands more and do the story with her non-stop "lol I'm on social media!!!" stuff that I ended up skipping because I got tired of it really quick. I get what her character is and that it's the point of character exploration, of course, but it's not the one I liked personally. I'm not saying Alphys is terrible, I'm saying she didn't appeal to me at all, while Muffet did. :v:

[editline]22nd January 2016[/editline]

[QUOTE=red_pharoah;49585219]I'd say it's because Alphys keeps interrupting you all the way through Hotland+CORE, making all sorts of awkward comments, plus you don't get to fight Alphys.

I think Alphys' dislikeable nature was intentional, seeing as even she doesn't like herself

[editline]22nd January 2016[/editline]

Oh and Alphys' theme isn't catchy as hell. Muffet>Alphys[/QUOTE]

yeah pretty much that. Muffet's character is stuck with me because she has a kick-ass music track and the boss fight is pretty much more expansion on what she is with spiders everywhere n shit.

[Nerfer]

I liked her only when [sp]she is shown to have horrible mutant abominations of corpses she resurrected with isolated components of human souls (in which she used a giant mechanical goat skull to get) in her basement, as well as making a soulless abomination bent on murder of all life[/sp]

It kinda serves as a nice backdrop to "ahaha im a fat weeb with no life and social anxiety animeanimeanime"

[The Civ]

I always thought Alphys was written best whenever she was in a scene where she had to interact with Mettaton, or any other character other than just you.
For some reason her character/writing just works [I]really[/I] well in three way conversations and situations, but not as much when it's one on one with the player.
The only exception would really be the ending scene in [sp]True Lab.[/sp]
But even then, she's still a pretty good character, just not the absolute best.