Undertale megathread v4 - An award winning RPG where nobody has to get hurt. YES, that STILL include
5,009 replies, posted
:snip: whoops.
So wait, [sp] Is Chara actually evil all along or is the Chara you see in Genocide just an evil shadow of the original chara formed by your evil deeds[/sp]
[QUOTE=TBot Alpha;49630559]Muffet is my least favourite character in the entire game. She's the only character who I feel is legitimately evil, and who I feel totally justified in fighting. But since I always go Pacifist, I just have to accept her lunacy like a chump.
Going by her stated motives, she's either a mercenary who will kill anyone she's told to if she's paid well enough (Flowey pays her to kill you), an idiot who will believe anything she's told (Flowey tells her that you hate and kill spiders, so she feels justified in killing you) or a raging psychopath who will kill anyone who refuses to buy her overpriced baked goods (I am under no obligation to buy anything from you, you nutcase. The fact that the profits are going to a good cause doesn't change that). But if I actually stand up to her and fight back, the game will call [I]me[/I] the villain.
Honestly, Muffet and Asgore's fights are my two biggest problems with Undertale's message of pacifism and forgiveness. Both fights would be totally unwinnable as a Pacifist if it wasn't for external intervention, and in Asgore's case, that intervention comes in the form of a character [I]who is actually willing to use violence to get shit done[/I]. The game outright acknowledges that its own philosophy is untenable, but instead of trying to address that (and I can think of a few good arguments on that front), it just doubles down for the True Pacifist boss in the hopes that you'll ignore or forget the inconsistency.[/QUOTE]
Being creepy is not the same as being evil. Her only motive to kill you was that she was told you hated spiders (your refusal to buy her stuff was like a confirmation of that to her) and wanted to punish you, AND was going to get enough money for her cause, which would be a lot faster than trying to sell ultra expensive items.
I don't think she legitimately wanted to kill you, though. She sounded like she was trying to be threatening to protect her spiders, once she finds out that what she heard was wrong she doesn't even try.
Plus I don't think it was Flowey who told her those things. Flowey doesn't have any money, and doesn't change shape. the only one with these two prerequisites is Mettaton, a TV star is bound to be rich, and we know he can change forms, and he openly admits to hiring all the mercenaries to kill you.
Oh and about the Asgore fight, the game never tells you that violence is wrong. In fact, it explicitly tells you you can scare away monsters if you almost defeat them. The point of the game was to point out what other RPGs do that doesn't make any sense, where a child is capable of murdering everything in their way, no questions asked, and where violence is the only answer to everything.
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630702]So wait, [sp] Is Chara actually evil all along or is the Chara you see in Genocide just an evil shadow of the original chara formed by your evil deeds[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]We don't know, all we know is that Chara told Asriel he hated humanity, and it was the reason they went to Mt. Ebott. They then came up with a plan to reignite the war between monsters and humans, where they killed themselves and Asriel absorbed their soul, but they couldn't force Asirel to kill the humans, and his plan sort-of-failed. Whether they were born evil, got traumatized by humans to seek revenge is unknown. We also don't know if they went to Mt. Ebott with the sole purpose of reigniting the war, and not just escaping humanity, or possibly wanting to kill themselves[/sp]
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;49630722][sp]We don't know, all we know is that Chara told Asriel he hated humanity, and it was the reason they went to Mt. Ebott. They then came up with a plan to reignite the war between monsters and humans, where they killed themselves and Asriel absorbed their soul, but they couldn't force Asirel to kill the humans, and his plan sort-of-failed. Whether they were born evil, got traumatized by humans to seek revenge is unknown. We also don't know if they went to Mt. Ebott with the sole purpose of reigniting the war, and not just escaping humanity, or possibly wanting to kill themselves[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp] Huh. To be honest, that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping that Chara was just a normal kid that fell down and he ended up dying, queue tears etc and then something like an evil form of him was born out of Flowey and Frisk fucking with the timelines.[/sp]
[editline]29th January 2016[/editline]
[sp]C-Could someone make me a Sans battle avatar?[/sp]
:snip: ffs
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630737]
[editline]29th January 2016[/editline]
[sp]C-Could someone make me a Sans battle avatar?[/sp][/QUOTE]
No, 'cos that's spoilers.
Fixt
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630737][sp] Huh. To be honest, that's kind of disappointing. I was hoping that Chara was just a normal kid that fell down and he ended up dying, queue tears etc and then something like an evil form of him was born out of Flowey and Frisk fucking with the timelines.[/sp]
[editline]29th January 2016[/editline]
[sp]C-Could someone make me a Sans battle avatar?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp] There is also the possibility that Chara was never a real human, they refer to themselves if you do the genocide ending a second time as "Demon", so maybe he was something more sinister[/sp]
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;49630838][sp] There is also the possibility that Chara was never a real human, they refer to themselves if you do the genocide ending a second time as "Demon", so maybe he was something more sinister[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I think the idea that Chara wasn't human sort of cheapens the story tbh. Same with them hating humans and trying to re-ignite the war.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630862][sp]I think the idea that Chara wasn't human sort of cheapens the story tbh. Same with them hating humans and trying to re-ignite the war.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I guess so, but the other half of your sentence is what's canon, so we can't really argue against it that much[/sp]
[sp]well the argument can be made that it cheapens the story, but you cant make an argument that it isnt canon[/sp]
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630862][sp]I think the idea that Chara wasn't human sort of cheapens the story tbh. Same with them hating humans and trying to re-ignite the war.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]The way I see it is that they were maybe abused, or perhaps were mentally unstable to begin with, but were initially more "plotty" than the creature we see at the end of a Genocide run, and most importantly they were still human back then. But when both they and Asriel died, Chara was "left to stew" in their own body, with all of their hatred and determination looping back in on themselves as they slumbered under several feet of soil where they first fell down.[/sp]
[sp]And eventually, through all of that stewing over mad thoughts and whatnot, they became "something else", much like how in the Mother series, Giygas started out as an alien who tried to prevent the secrets of PSI from spiralling out of control in the hands of humans, but later on became so unstable and so powerful that he couldn't think rationally anymore. Okay, maybe that stretches it a little bit, but I still feel it's valid, especially considering how crazy Flowey got with the power HE gathered.[/sp]
[sp]An alternative theory is that they became a "demon" through OUR actions in Genocide. The willingness to hurt others was there, yes, but perhaps it was merely that, acting as a proxy for our own "killer instinct", and that they gained LOVE through our simple suggestions and morbid curiosity. Through following our regular instincts and craving completion, we unwittingly create a monster, and if we persist past the final guard, unbroken by what we went through, we lose our already flimsy grip on them as they take control. And by that point, they're so twisted that they not only murder their adoptive father, but brutally butcher their best friend as we watch on in horror at the monster we shaped with our button presses and persistent grinding.[/sp]
What would a cool skeleton be doing in the Darkest Dungeon?
[IMG]http://puu.sh/mO784/85b55c2a3c.jpg[/IMG]
idk
[sp]OC[/sp]
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630862][sp]I think the idea that Chara wasn't human sort of cheapens the story tbh. Same with them hating humans and trying to re-ignite the war.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Personally I don't believe that Chara was a demon but that that was just a title that they gave themself because it felt apt to them as a result of the power they gained or it just sounded cool to them (God of Hyperdeath anyone?).
I don't see them as being evil however, truth be told they may just be a screwed up kid who just in a bad place in their life and saw humanity as the source of it and that their only way of working through that pain was hurting others; kind of like those kids who create Sims just to kill them off, or revel in the more violent moments in films or video games without thinking of the context or repercussions of what they are seeing.
Only here they found themself in a position where their warped little fantasy could take flight without ever really thinking it through, they became drunk on the notion of power and it progressively consumed them to the point they were willing to hurt their adoptive family and actually murder their own species.
Their plan failed but it set into motion events where it could still happen; in the Genocide ending they become so powerful they can just do the job themself and with the Pacifist ending the monsters are on the surface and it could only be a matter of time before tensions flare up or are stoked by Chara themself. I am not one to believe the 'Chara is the one controlling Frisk' thing, guiding them maybe, but controlling? Something about that doesn't feel right to me but I can't put my finger on it.
In any case, of all the characters that you meet who need mercy, who need support, Chara is the one who needed it the most but never got it and, well, we all know what happened next...[/sp]
But then that's just my feeling on the matter, the whole complexity of the inner workings of the story to the game is something that I'm not to au fait with.
[QUOTE=Solomon;49630702]So wait, [sp] Is Chara actually evil all along or is the Chara you see in Genocide just an evil shadow of the original chara formed by your evil deeds[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Considering how Chara made Asgore eat buttercups, and then laughed it off afterwards, I'd say they were pretty damn twisted from the get-go [/sp]
[QUOTE=TBot Alpha;49630559]Muffet is my least favourite character in the entire game. She's the only character who I feel is legitimately evil, and who I feel totally justified in fighting. But since I always go Pacifist, I just have to accept her lunacy like a chump.
Going by her stated motives, she's either a mercenary who will kill anyone she's told to if she's paid well enough (Flowey pays her to kill you), an idiot who will believe anything she's told (Flowey tells her that you hate and kill spiders, so she feels justified in killing you) or a raging psychopath who will kill anyone who refuses to buy her overpriced baked goods (I am under no obligation to buy anything from you, you nutcase. The fact that the profits are going to a good cause doesn't change that). But if I actually stand up to her and fight back, the game will call [I]me[/I] the villain.
Honestly, Muffet and Asgore's fights are my two biggest problems with Undertale's message of pacifism and forgiveness. Both fights would be totally unwinnable as a Pacifist if it wasn't for external intervention, and in Asgore's case, that intervention comes in the form of a character [I]who is actually willing to use violence to get shit done[/I]. The game outright acknowledges that its own philosophy is untenable, but instead of trying to address that (and I can think of a few good arguments on that front), it just doubles down for the True Pacifist boss in the hopes that you'll ignore or forget the inconsistency.[/QUOTE]
I wish there was some character that was an irredeemable asshole that would fuck things up or kill someone if you let him live ([sp]Even Flowey was a good person deep down.[/sp]) Just to show that violence and pacifism aren't so black and white.
I dunno, the Underground isn't exactly Lordran. Besides, I dunno if there are many monsters that could be like Patches or Lautrec.
Two questions
Why are they monsters, when they're mostly animals? :v:
[sp]Can omega flowey kill you in the last boss battle?[/sp]
[QUOTE=damnatus;49631225]
[sp]Can omega flowey kill you in the last boss battle?[/sp][/QUOTE]
No. [sp]He'll tear you to bloody pieces over, and over, and over, AND OVER again like he said he would.
God damn that pre-battle cutscene disturbs me.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Kalan Yamato;49631292]No. [sp]He'll tear you to bloody pieces over, and over, and over, AND OVER again like he said he would.
God damn that pre-battle cutscene disturbs me.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]He can definitely kill you.[/sp]
[sp]When does it say Chara wanted to reignite the war all along? Wasn't the original plan to get human souls from the surface, but when Chara got power they got consumed by it and that's when they tried to kill everyone?[/sp]
[QUOTE=damnatus;49631225]Two questions
Why are they monsters, when they're mostly animals? :v:
[sp]Can omega flowey kill you in the last boss battle?[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]Omega Flowey can kill you, though due to his abilities not dealing too much damage and the damage actually getting lower as you get in lower health, it makes it kinda easier to not get killed by him, but it can happen.[/sp]
[QUOTE=IntenseBarney;49631348][sp]He can definitely kill you.[/sp][/QUOTE]
...oh, right. Brainfart, I thought he meant actually getting a true game over. :v:
[QUOTE=Kalan Yamato;49631292][sp]God damn that pre-battle cutscene disturbs me.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Is it the wriggling?
[IMG]http://33.media.tumblr.com/9b9c299d38a517a2214873adfc6fa1b2/tumblr_inline_o1py11xrbW1qleu84_500.gif[/IMG]
Can't find the source.
So wait, if the shoes in a disparity of sizes in Toriel's house are from [sp]the other humans that fell down, what shoes were those humans wearing [I]after[/I] they left the ruins? Seems to me that the only two possibilities are that they all ran through the snow barefoot, or Froggit is a cobbler.[/sp]
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