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Man, I'm really not sold with the way CIG approaches variants. Its like CIG is just attempting to have more ships in a cheap sort of way. Why can't we have a base model and then we customise it to our role? Instead of designing variants which sucks all the modularity and freedom, why not just design separate parts to customise the base model of the ship so it suits a particular role? Heck, add bit of cosmetic parts, as well. Cockpit change anyone? It will cause a lot of work for CIG since the whole standardising thing, but we already have variants with different models, why not go a step further? Really, no idea what the designers are thinking. CIG will likely support this game for a long time after release, with expansions and new ships, contents. Doing variants just limits the future expandability of this game.

[QUOTE=the_killer24;47555078]the first one was from like summer 2013, and is the old version of the SQ42 trainer variant (without the bed and interior corridor) the current design dropped in either winter '13 or early '14 and they "temporarily" switched to the bulldogs a few AC patches ago because supposedly the suckerpunches weren't working (cig pls keep the bulldogs i hate the suckerpunches)[/QUOTE] yeah supposedly they "temporarily" removed it when the fucking cutlass has them, makes no sense also the bulldogs suck ok

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47555563]Why can't we have a base model and then we customise it to our role? Instead of designing variants which sucks all the modularity and freedom, why not just design separate parts to customise the base model of the ship so it suits a particular role? [/QUOTE] Every ship can be deeply customised, but the point of ship variants is that they sacrifice [I]flexible [/I]upgrades to focus on [I]deep [/I]upgrades in a single area. Origin 300 series is the simplest way of explaining it. 300i is the base ship, with the most flexibility but isn't brilliant at any one thing. 315p is geared towards explorers and has less power than the 300i but more room for exploration-based upgrades. 325a is geared for combat and the variant matrix literally says "1 x Custom Weapons System". It wouldn't be able to fit very good exploration equipment or expand its cargo hold, but can reach greater depths of customisation when it comes to weapons. Variants don't restrict you, they just encourage the ship to be customised with certain equipment.

Except deep upgrades can be done on a completely modular system and on top of that also allow more flexibility. That is just an excuse. And the 300i is one of the best starting spot for a full on modular approach. CIG can start by not calling it a variant and look into calling it "Explorer equipment pack, military pack etc", some of the modular equipment would change the hardpoints, stats and obviously with drawbacks and advantages, you can go full on military like the 325, or go a hybrid of explorer/military, racer/military with not fully maximising each role and so on.

Excuse for [I]what?[/I] Don't go tinfoil on me here. Players get a choice between flexibility or specialization. If they want to be extremely good at a single thing, they need to sacrifice abilities in other area. This is game design 101.

Those are not mutually exclusive with, since you responded so fast, I recently edited my post. A full on modular approach can be similar with variants, with the right equipment maximising a role it will be like variants but have the flexibility without having to buy a completely new ship. It is in what equipment you choose to fit, to specialise to a certain role. Variants, are simply just a cheap way to have more ships, at the sake of customisability, and future expandability. Edit: Mutually exclusive as in the sense that with a full on modular approach, you have the option to do both and more.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556379]Those are not mutually exclusive with, since you responded so fast, I recently edited my post. A full on modular approach can be similar with variants, with the right equipment maximising a role it will be like variants but have the flexibility without having to buy a completely new ship. It is in what equipment you choose to fit, to specialise to a certain role. Variants, are simply just a cheap way to have more ships, at the sake of customisability, and future expandability. Edit: Mutually exclusive as in the sense that with a full on modular approach, you have the option to do both and more.[/QUOTE] Mate, the game is in early pre-alpha and the PU isn't even in real testing either. That stuff will probably come later in the dev cycle because I'm pretty sure I've seen them talk about something similiar.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556343]CIG can start by not calling it a variant and look into calling it "Explorer equipment pack, military pack etc", some of the modular equipment would change the hardpoints, stats and obviously with drawbacks and advantages, you can go full on military like the 325, or go a hybrid of explorer/military, racer/military with not fully maximising each role and so on.[/QUOTE] If the modular equipment changes the hardpoints and stats isn't that literally a cross-chassis upgrade? Steal a 300i, take it into a mechanic, pay a couple thousand UEC and come out with a 325p? And if you want hybrids, here's some real easy hypothetical configurations (except the first one, which I've already been doing in Arena Commander). Explorer / Military: Drop the tractor beam from a 315p and use that slot for a gun. Racer / Military: Downgrade the twin engines on a 350r and use that spare power for stronger shielding. Explorer / Racer: 300i with scanners.

[QUOTE=jonoPorter;47556414]Mate, the game is in early pre-alpha and the PU isn't even in real testing either. That stuff will probably come later in the dev cycle because I'm pretty sure I've seen them talk about something similiar.[/QUOTE] Correction, its alpha. Also I'm questioning why the design ideas are so short-sighted that it will affect the future expandability in ship customisation given to us players. Its like Before PBR implementation, CIG got the right idea with doing it now, than in future with even more difficulties since more texture work needs to be converted. Its better to start now, than start later down the line. But it looks to be the "later down the line" which is a shame. @ScottyWired Why do we need cross-chassis upgrade? Why do we need to completely buy a new ship for those things you mention? Ever ask that question? Making it more complicated than necessary doesn't mean its better. Also don't think cross-chassis upgrade will be around in the PU.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556458]Correction, its alpha. Also I'm questioning why the design ideas are so short-sighted that it will affect the future expandability in ship customisation given to us players. @ScottyWired Why do we need cross-chassis upgrade? Why do we need to completely buy a new ship for those things you mention? Ever ask that question? Making it more complicated than necessary doesn't mean its better. Also don't think cross-chassis upgrade will be around in the PU.[/QUOTE] "Why do we need cross-chassis upgrade?" "Why do we need to completely buy a new ship" I don't think you understand what an upgrade is.

@scotty those things can be achieved with a full on modular approach starting from a base model. edit: Might spoke to harsh.

It's almost as if real life has basic hulls that are manufactured in variants, which from there have individual modules that are upgraded and customised even further. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panzer_IV[/url] And it's variants: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirbelwind[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brummb%C3%A4r[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgesch%C3%BCtz_IV[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanzer_IV[/url] (which is then further customised as either assault guns or tank destroyers) [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Zeta_platform[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_G8[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Camaro_(fifth_generation)[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Commodore[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden_Ute[/url] (either the engine is upgraded for some insane burnouts or suspensions and AWD for rural driving) [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonnell_Douglas_F-15_Eagle#Variants[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle#Variants[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homebuilt_computer[/url]

Don't see what your point in giving real life examples, if anything those examples are pretty much examples of being full on modular which is especially prized in military. Like the panzer 4 in your example, just a different turret. So really don't see the point.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556606]Don't see what your point in giving real life examples, if anything those examples are pretty much examples of being full on modular which is especially prized in military. Like the panzer 4 in your example, just a different turret. So really don't see the point.[/QUOTE] I give up arguing with you if you refuse to read anything we're posting. :suicide:

[QUOTE=jonoPorter;47556614]I give up arguing with you if you refuse to read anything we're posting. :suicide:[/QUOTE] How are you arguing with me? You only just responded to me once and which has nothing to do with what I implied. And I can say the same thing right back at you.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556618]How are you arguing with me? You only just responded to me once and which has nothing to do with what I implied. And I can say the same thing right back at you.[/QUOTE] Alright, if what I have posted is not enough for you: You think variants are apparently a hard locked thing which can't be changed extensively, which is clearly not the case and you would know that if you would have started up the game at least once and looked at the holotable. And I am going to guess here: you probably just came here to argue(and shit on the game)and most likely haven't even backed the game and never once bothered informing yourself on the website.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556606][B]Don't see what your point in giving real life examples[/B], if anything those examples are pretty much examples of being full on modular which is especially prized in military. Like the panzer 4 in your example, just a different turret. So really don't see the point.[/QUOTE] Do you know what the "sim" part is in "space sim"? I mean they're creating fully functional languages with grammar and vocalisation rules, socio-economic systems where wealth correlates to an area's crime and danger, AI personalities that will come back for revenge or fear you forever, zero-g physics, the list goes on.

[QUOTE=jonoPorter;47556632]Alright, if what I have posted is not enough for you: You think variants are apparently a hard locked thing which can't be changed extensively, which is clearly not the case and you would know that if you would have started up the game at least once and looked at the holotable. And I am going to guess here: you probably just came here to argue(and shit on the game)and most likely haven't even backed the game and never once bothered informing yourself on the website.[/QUOTE] Well variants are pretty much a hard locked thing, its pretty much proven. Yes they have a whole modularity approach, that is what we pitched for, but its making it more complicated than necessary and on top of that making it exclusive among the same ships and limits cosmetic changes such as cockpit changes due to having to have cosmetic changes for all variants which will no doubt triple the workload that CIG has to do. Also please back off on personal attacks, thank you. [QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556633]Do you know what the "sim" part is in "space sim"? I mean they're creating fully functional languages with grammar and vocalisation rules, socio-economic systems where wealth correlates to an area's crime and danger, AI personalities that will come back for revenge or fear you forever, zero-g physics, the list goes on.[/QUOTE] Space sim is name used for a genre, specfically started by Chris Roberts. Footstop

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556715]Well variants are pretty much a hard locked thing, its pretty much proven.[/QUOTE] When I played Arena Commander during the all ships week, I tooks parts from the 325a, 350r, the Avenger, and the Super Hornet, then mounted them on my 315p. That's engine, guns, missiles, powerplant, shielding, and engine. "Hard locked' my ass [QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556715]Yes they have a whole modularity approach, that is what we pitched for, but its making it more complicated than necessary[/QUOTE] No there's literally a drag 'n' drop feature in the hangar's holotable. [URL="http://www.dressupgames.com/makeover/drag-and-drop-makeover-game-10864.html"]If this is too hard for you[/URL] then yes I'll agree it's pretty complicated [QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556715]Space sim is name used for a genre, specfically started by Chris Roberts. Footstop[/QUOTE] And on numerous occasions he's also called Star Citizen a universe simulator, which is not a title he bestowed on his previous works.

[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556768]When I played Arena Commander during the all ships week, I tooks parts from the 325a, 350r, the Avenger, and the Super Hornet, then mounted them on my 315p. That's engine, guns, missiles, powerplant, shielding, and engine. "Hard locked' my ass [/QUOTE] What parts? Weapons? Shields? Because that is all CIG part of standardising and have nothing to do with variants. I am speaking about hard locked stuff, such as stats from the ship that define variants. Also Please explain where you pull out powerplants and engines and shielding. [QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556768]No there's literally a drag 'n' drop feature in the hangar's holotable. [/QUOTE] As for the above, Not talking about that, again nothing to do with variants. [QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556768]And on numerous occasions he's also called it a universe simulator. [/QUOTE] And so? You take it word for word? Its a genre, Footstop. There is nothing realistic about space ships in combat anyway. And for a Universe simulator it does it awfully bad, with limited top speeds, no Orbital paths etc.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556791]What parts? Weapons? Shields? Because that is all CIG part of standardising and have nothing to do with variants. I am speaking about[B] hard locked stuff, such as stats from the ship that define variants.[/B] [/QUOTE] What stats? This isn't an RPG. They don't have hitpoints or speed or agility or firepower. That's determined solely by your equipment. The variants have exactly three statistics: 1. Hardpoints 2. Weight 3. Jump-capable Y/N

[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556806]What stats? This isn't an RPG. They don't have hitpoints or speed or agility or firepower. That's determined solely by your equipment. The variants have exactly three statistics: 1. Hardpoints 2. Weight 3. Jump-capable Y/N[/QUOTE] Yes those are the stats. The Hardpoints you can mount for the task, the amount of cargo you can carry, whether its jump capable. all those. So again, there is no reason for variants, all those can be incorporated into a full modular approach starting from a single base hull without you needing to buy a new hull on the same ship.

[QUOTE=jonoPorter;47556632]Alright, if what I have posted is not enough for you: You think variants are apparently a hard locked thing which can't be changed extensively, which is clearly not the case and you would know that if you would have started up the game at least once and looked at the holotable. And I am going to guess here: you probably just came here to argue(and shit on the game)and most likely haven't even backed the game and never once bothered informing yourself on the website.[/QUOTE] It seems more like he's saying there should just be a base ship and instead of variants which are locked into a specific configuration, they should just be the base ship with different parts on so that you can mix them together however you like. Up until the fairly recent modular ship stretch goals, the variant ships were not just a ship that had been modified with different parts - if you wanted something that was included in the variant, the only way to get it on your ship was to buy that variant ship. You can change things like the shields, power and weapons, but you can't do something like take the cockpit of the Constellation Aquila and put it on a Constellation Phoenix. There is a way to do that now as it's being changed to a modular approach, but they've still said there are some things you can't take from a variant and put on another ship. I thought you'd be able to do that sort of thing, it was disappointing to find out that wasn't the case and the customization options were going to be much more limited, until the modular ship stretch goal at least. It should have been done the modular way from the start. It would still allow the exact same variants to be made and the same specialized ships, but would let players customize their ship for different roles without having to buy a ship and then be locked to a certain configuration. With the previous system, if you wanted a ship that was good at a certain role, you would have had to buy a completely new ship each time, rather than just being able to upgrade your current one to be good at it. You could upgrade a few parts like the engines but that isn't anywhere near enough customization when compared to what the specific variants could do, really.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47556813]Yes those are the stats. The Hardpoints you can mount for the task, the amount of cargo you can carry, whether its jump capable. all those. So again, there is no reason for variants, all those can be incorporated into a full modular approach starting from a single base hull without you needing to buy a new hull on the same ship.[/QUOTE] Except if the ships go full modular then the player's choice of base hull is basically boiled down to "which one has the most hardpoints." In the end you just end up with every player choosing the same ship. Imagine how shitty and boring FasterThanLight would have been if it was like that. But for the sake of challenge and fun, they made it so that every hull has a specified game style in mind and the variants made niche changes to suit every player's play style. Sure, you could still win by fitting the dedicated boarding ship with flak cannons, but it was more fun to learn the strengths & weaknesses of each ship and play within the bounds of them.

[QUOTE=ScottyWired;47556966]Except if the ships go full modular then the player's choice of base hull is basically boiled down to "which one has the most hardpoints." In the end you just end up with every player choosing the same ship. Imagine how shitty and boring FasterThanLight would have been if it was like that. But for the sake of challenge and fun, they made it so that every hull has a specified game style in mind and the variants made niche changes to suit every player's play style. Sure, you could still win by fitting the dedicated boarding ship with flak cannons, but it was more fun to learn the strengths & weaknesses of each ship and play within the bounds of them.[/QUOTE] If the ships that have variants went fully modular and let you use the parts from them on the base ship instead, those ship variants would still exist and would not be made any worse at their specific role. The only difference is the variation would refer to a specific set of parts together that are intended for a certain purpose, rather than buying the variant being the only way to get those parts. It wouldn't affect any of the ships in any way other than letting you customize them more by swapping a few things.

@nightlord Yeah you understand what I was trying to say, this is why I'm really not sold with the way CIG approaches variants. They should go full modular and just sell it as additional parts fit for a purpose e.g exploring, than just selling a whole ship. And to that, CIG also have more leeway in designing parts. and cosmetic changes which a lot of people want. Don't like the cockpit? well swap to another. Feels like a waste when CIG is touting the whole modular approach.

[QUOTE=Why485;47555325]I think this is where it's from. The guy who made the original trailer listed something in Russian, but this seems to be the original. [url]https://soundcloud.com/fauxtales/atlas?in=fauxtales/sets/dystopia-ep[/url][/QUOTE] I mean, it sounds really similar in the intro- but I'm talking about the [url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbZLbb0_RBI"]one that they posted on their official YT channel.[/url] It says that it was scored last minute by their composer, Pedro Macedo Camacho. I guess I'll have to keep digging.

[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47557101]Feels like a waste when CIG is touting the whole modular approach.[/QUOTE] the only waste is making assumptions about offering pre-arranged modular packs with no research. It's cool you can buy into the setup you want with their kickstarter rewards, but not mandatory and not in a way that represents how ship dealing will work in the game. They're not reducing modular ability, they've even given examples like if you bought a cutlass red (medbay version), there's nothing stopping you from installing the blue's prison cells and dropping some major weapons back onto it so it serves a bounty hunting role. Zero exclusivity to these variant parts, just tuned up combos being offered right now as a proof of concept on how the system will allow you to change a ship's role. You'll probably be able to spend the extra ingame cash trade your ship's [I]body[/I] up to a better chassis that can hold higher quality weapons/mount more stuff/has more cargo/can travel farther. The cockpits on the cutlass, for example, are very much different in style. I have a black, which is a cheap and utilitarian base version. The red has way more HP to the body, has different weapon mounts, and a huge modular rack on the body to mount some stuff. it's a higher quality model and has some larger viewing windows that are a bit easier on the eyes. The blue goes above and beyond that with a more armored but still quality looking cockpit. I'm not gonna go out and say "hey lop off my cockpit I like those windows". Weapons, shields, engines, and ship series specific modular bits (like the medbay and prisoner cells) will be swappable, but the chassis is what determines what you can do with it all. Trade up with ingame dosh at your dealership.

Yeah I get what you mean, but then what's the point of variants if it will be very similar to the base ship? Only it comes with equipment and maybe it looks slightly different. That is why I feel it is a "waste" if you get what I mean, not that each variant is very modular. Just needs one more step to go.

[QUOTE=dai;47557466]the only waste is making assumptions about offering pre-arranged modular packs with no research. It's cool you can buy into the setup you want with their kickstarter rewards, but not mandatory and not in a way that represents how ship dealing will work in the game. They're not reducing modular ability, they've even given examples like if you bought a cutlass red (medbay version), there's nothing stopping you from installing the blue's prison cells and dropping some major weapons back onto it so it serves a bounty hunting role. Zero exclusivity to these variant parts, just tuned up combos being offered right now as a proof of concept on how the system will allow you to change a ship's role. You'll probably be able to spend the extra ingame cash trade your ship's [I]body[/I] up to a better chassis that can hold higher quality weapons/mount more stuff/has more cargo/can travel farther. The cockpits on the cutlass, for example, are very much different in style. I have a black, which is a cheap and utilitarian base version. The red has way more HP to the body, has different weapon mounts, and a huge modular rack on the body to mount some stuff. it's a higher quality model and has some larger viewing windows that are a bit easier on the eyes. The blue goes above and beyond that with a more armored but still quality looking cockpit. I'm not gonna go out and say "hey lop off my cockpit I like those windows". Weapons, shields, engines, and ship series specific modular bits (like the medbay and prisoner cells) will be swappable, but the chassis is what determines what you can do with it all. Trade up with ingame dosh at your dealership.[/QUOTE] Maybe i'm wrong but as far as i know that's not quite the case. The currently released variant ships are not pre-arranged modular packs, if you wanted a ship to do that role well beyond just taking the base ship and making smaller modifications like the engines, shields, sensors etc you'd have needed to get a variant ship. They weren't just a combination of different parts you'd have been able to get, there were going to be the only way to get those parts up until the ship modularity stretch goal was added a few months ago. They said you weren't going to be able to actually take things like the medical equipment and replace them with the cells and things like that (at least before the modular system was added): [quote]The single thing you can’t do upon launch (with the current schedule) is reposition the internals of the Blue and the Red into another ships; either they have the autodoc/prison or they don’t.[/quote] [url]https://forums.robertsspaceindustries.com/discussion/comment/3685587/#Comment_3685587[/url] The stretch goal mentions this: [quote]Manufacturers will still be offering pre-configured variants, but should you be looking to adapt a hull to suit a certain task then your ship has come in (and is now ready for modification!)[/quote] [url]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14354-Letter-From-The-Chairman-Multi-Crew-Ship-Systems[/url] Which in combination with the post on the official forum above, suggests you weren't really going to be able to adapt a hull or a certain role in the sense of adding the equipment you'd find on one of the variants. You can now, though, but the problem is it should have been like that from the start instead of them deciding to change it after doing all those variants. That post mentions you can do things like customize the interior with different parts but it suggests it still won't be as good as the variant ships were intended to be, and you won't always be able to add the things unique to them to other ships. The ability to swap out different parts was something that was only added a few months ago as a stretch goal, before that it wasn't going to be possible to the same degree. They're having to go back and make the ships modular rather than having it already set up already.