Fallout 4 V24: You're Tied to This Thread Kid, Your Energy - Games

[QUOTE=General J;49361176]unpopular opinions hurt feelings I guess suppose the debate is: Is it okay to risk diving away from being "true to the originals" if it means getting an ideally better visual aesthetic?[/QUOTE] Better visual aesthetic for who? That's very relative and it's impossible to please everyone. Many of bethesda's design addition were great. I love their interpretation of Mr. handy, i like most of the new enemies they added (specially mirelurks), but when they change old staples of the series for the sake of changing them, it falls flat. As long as you try to follow the general idea instead of taking a concept and changing it completely, it's fine. Turning ghouls into aliens or removing anything that made super mutants somewhat unique (like the straps holding their defective faces together) to turn them into generic cannon fodder orcs, not so much. This is a point where Bethesda has more rights than wrongs, though. If they're good at anything, it's their overall aesthetic sense. They should just stop messing around with stuff that is already stablished and work on their new designs. [QUOTE=General J;49361176] Like- what makes Fallout "Fallout" is something that isn't totally clearly defined for everyone it seems, and that's okay..[/QUOTE] What makes fallout fallout isn't only what happened in 3, NV and 4, that's the point. or 3 and 4 because you were complaining about new vegas not fitting with them. Your problem is not disliking NV weaponry, that's your opinion and no one has anything to do with that. Your problem is complaining about it not fitting the previous games that you havent even played.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49361194]People seem to forget that Bethesda set the trend of that everything suddenly needs to feel destroyed and ruined by nuclear devestation, and while that's true, New Vegas takes place in a part of the world where huge factions like the NCR are trying to rebuild the world. There are actually people making new resources, like that clothing for instance.[/QUOTE] The Mojave is not NCR territory. Places like Goodsprings are supposed to be far away and untouched by the NCR, and the people who live there are supposed to be rather self-sufficient since they have a simple life style, with enough food and water to not have to rely on anyone outside. So why would these people, these dirt rednecks live in the ass-end of nowhere, get clothes from the NCR when the NCR is barely capable of holding it together in New Vegas or at their own outpost ? Moreover, why would the NCR military deliver clothes to local farm hands ? Shouldn't that be the job of all the caravans that come from NCR territory ? And since there are no caravans that go all the way to Goodsprings, why would the people of Goodsprings be wearing all these new clothes ? Despite all the progress that's been done within the universe to improve everyone's life, the mojave is still supposed to be rather unwelcoming and far from civilization, if only because of its unforgiving climate. Having farmhands wear pristine clothes doesn't quite fit that thematic. Also, despite things being rather fucked in Fallout 3 and 4, people still have developed a certain sense of fashion - and it's interesting to see that in the ten years that separate 3 from 4 (combined with the fact the Commonwealth wasn't hit as hard as DC), your average wasteland guy has actually started wearing fancier clothes than the brahmin skin rags most people wear in Fallout 3 - hell, the only people who still wear shitty rags in 4 are the Children of Atom.

even Fallout 3 had people like anthony ling around sewing new stuff and the CW is supposed to be a hellhole where people have way more pressing matters than clothing. it's not that implausible that people in the relative peace of the mojave could keep their clothes in a good shape specially with all the trade routes coming from the NCR the patched up outfits makes everyone look like they messed up their clothes in the same way and used the same methods for fixing it which is as distracting as everyone having pristine clean clothing around

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361204]Shouldn't that be the job of all the caravans that come from NCR territory ? And since there are no caravans that go all the way to Goodsprings, why would the people of Goodsprings be wearing all these new clothes ?[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure Goodsprings gets caravans (maybe they don't in the game due to recent events - Primm being taken over by Powder Gangers and Deathclaws blocking up the highway) - the NPCs mention it and it's the reason there's a general store set up there. Also the quest for that town is about a caravaneer.

Anthony Ling lives in one of the safest and wealthiest areas of the CW so it makes sense that he (and the rest of the people living there) would be wearing cleaner clothes that were less practical and more fashionable. Besides, even if people did spend time maintaining their clothes, they'd still need to patch them up with salvaged cloth and fabric, because people are typically more focused on farming and scavenging than tailoring.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361204]Moreover, why would the NCR military deliver clothes to local farm hands ? Shouldn't that be the job of all the caravans that come from NCR territory ? And since there are no caravans that go all the way to Goodsprings, why would the people of Goodsprings be wearing all these new clothes ?[/QUOTE] Huh, Crimson Caravan? You know, the one with Ringo? All the other caravans that used to roam around before the NCRCF rebellion? Which the Goodsprings settlers said several times that they traded their food and clean water with people around (like Primm)?

I could've sworn the clothing in new Vegas being cleaner and fashionable had to do with the back story of house destroying many of the bombs before they hit? Maybe I'm wrong on that, but the Mojave has had a better chance of survival than Boston and DC. It's probably why there's more prosperity in the west, other than being governed mostly by the NCR

[QUOTE=Glent;49361220]I'm pretty sure Goodsprings gets caravans (maybe they don't in the game due to recent events - Primm being taken over by Powder Gangers and Deathclaws blocking up the highway) - the NPCs mention it and it's the reason there's a general store set up there. Also the quest for that town is about a caravaneer.[/QUOTE] Doubtful that the caravans that go all the way to goodsprings bother bringing them good clothes (also doubtful that the farmers would spend what little caps they have on actually buying new clothes instead of maintaining their own) rather than actually important supplies.

Maybe not as much with the face-straps specifically, but I do think I agree on the point of Fallout visually not looking- uhm what's the best way to describe this... fucked-up enough? Anymore? If I had to love anything from the originals it was that. The dirt, rust, shit, decay on everything, the genuine hopelessness of some atmospheres (Glowing Sea was a step in the right direction, give me more of this shit please), the actually brutal bloody mess deaths, etc. I know that preset animations on a isometric graphic plane becomes different when you bring it into a real-time 3d world- but god dammit we've seen cooler and smarter shit in games nowadays so there's no excuse. Gimme more weight to kills. Have people go down writhing and screaming. Don't just ragdoll instantly.

[QUOTE=SonicHitman;49361226]I could've sworn the clothing in new Vegas being cleaner and fashionable had to do with the back story of house destroying many of the bombs before they hit? Maybe I'm wrong on that, but the Mojave has had a better chance of survival than Boston and DC. It's probably why there's more prosperity in the west, other than being governed mostly by the NCR[/QUOTE] The Mojave in general is cleaner because House stopped a lot of the bombs. It's also canon that the west wasn't hit as hard as the east due to the east having all the important political stuff.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49361194]People seem to forget that Bethesda set the trend of that everything suddenly needs to feel destroyed and ruined by nuclear devestation, and while that's true for cases like Fallout 1 and Fallout 3, New Vegas takes place in a part of the world where huge factions like the NCR are trying to rebuild the world. There are actually people making new resources, like that clothing for instance. Factions like the Gun Runners have repurposed factories where they make new firearms for factions like the NCR. It makes even less sense for a game like Fallout 4 to have people still wear shitty repurposed stuff where it has been already 200 years for fuck sakes. Most of the people in the Commonwealth, despite the Institute, look like they sat on their ass for the last couple of 200 years.[/QUOTE] This is why i like fallout, there are post apocalypse settings out the ass these days and they all seem to be about the human race being totally fucked to the point where wearing rags, crawling through ruins, and eating poop is as good as it's going to get. Fallout actually tries to tackle what would happen next, if bottle caps are the accepted currency, will nuka cola factories be re-opened as mints as the population begins to out-grow the supply of old rusty bottlecaps, what societies would rise up, how would they operate, how would a society survive in the post nuclear world, would morality and the rule of law be re-instated or would humanity fall under the banner of a might makes right dictatorship. That's probably why im so disappointed when the bethesda games come around and it's like "oh wow it's been 200 years and you have a city the size of a baseball field woo"

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361227]Doubtful that the caravans that go all the way to goodsprings bother bringing them good clothes (also doubtful that the farmers would spend what little caps they have on actually buying new clothes instead of maintaining their own) rather than actually important supplies.[/QUOTE] Are you using your headcanon here to justify an inexistent plot hole? Because the farmers in goodspring are not that poor to avoid using their "little caps" on new clothes. In fact no one in Goodsprings is really poor or in dire condition and they pretty much point that their main problem is just the Ringo-Cobb situation

Hell if you want a perfect example of practicality/pragmatism in New Vegas there's the fact that one of the biggest local businesses isn't about clothes or fashion, it's about guns. The Gun Runners are fucking huge because they mass produce the one thing people need the most in the wasteland.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361239]Hell if you want a perfect example of practicality/pragmatism in New Vegas there's the fact that one of the biggest local businesses isn't about clothes or fashion, it's about guns. The Gun Runners are fucking huge because they mass produce the one thing people need the most in the wasteland.[/QUOTE] The Gun Runners don't even sell to common people You're missing your line of thought here

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361227]Doubtful that the caravans that go all the way to goodsprings bother bringing them good clothes (also doubtful that the farmers would spend what little caps they have on actually buying new clothes instead of maintaining their own) rather than actually important supplies.[/QUOTE] First, "all the way to goodsprings" - goodsprings isn't actually that far out of the way, until recently. It's a short distance off the main highway between Mojave Outpost, Primm and New Vegas that only recently (in the game's events) became inoperable. Secondly, there's never any indication that the people of goodsprings only have a few little caps - they seem to be quite a prosperous village and have a lot of trade to offer in the form of food, gecko hides (which are reasonably valuable - enough for an entire community, Trapper Town, to survive on this trade in FO2) and clean water.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49361237]Things were only fucked in Fallout 3. Society hasn't progressed much due to the fact D.C. was hit much harder than most other places during the great war, and simple things like fresh water are still a problem around the time Fallout 3 takes place. The Commonwealth on the other hand even had the luxery of that the bombs fell outside of Boston, so there's no reason things would have progressed very little. The point is, Fallout 4 would have made sense, like I said earlier, if it took place around Fallout 1's timeframe, but not 210 years after the great war.[/QUOTE] Things are rather steady in Fallout 4, outside of the Boston area. There isn't any big government in place [sp]because the Institute nipped it in the bud[/sp] but farmers are managing relatively fine and while they're frequently bothered by raiders they seem to be doing rather well. The Minutemen were around for a hundred years before shit started fucking up for them, so there was a time before the protag's arrival where the Commonwealth was quite safe.

this <50 sec clip and everything about it (mostly what's going on/tone of music) accurately describes what I think is both the highlight of, and what has been missing since the originals. [video=youtube_share;TGdBKuGtPEs]http://youtu.be/TGdBKuGtPEs[/video]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361232]The Mojave in general is cleaner because House stopped a lot of the bombs. It's also canon that the west wasn't hit as hard as the east due to the east having all the important political stuff.[/QUOTE] Then I don't see why the west can't have better conditions. Most of the mojaves problems are caused by the inhabitants, not by the barren desert. The fiends are uncontrollable junkies, the vipers/geckos/jackals are small time tribals and the powder gangers are the result of NCR neglect. The legion is a band of United tribes under one banner, lead by psychos. In the midst of that bullshit people are just trying to live civilized and survive these crazies

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;49361251]you could probably explain it as stuff leaking into the Mojave from the NCR from trade caravans. Considering they can manufacture fatigues in large enough numbers to dress an army, manufacture brand spanking new armor for their Rangers, have printed currencies and peaceful ranches back west it's not hard of a stretch that perhaps there's newly made clothing available via caravans.[/QUOTE] or you know, a caravan (like Crimson Caravan, that had enough routes around the area before the NCRCF riot) just passed through Goodsprings and traded their spare clothes for food and clean water, which goodsprings has plenty i don't get how this is so absurd to Ganerumo. he makes it sounds like goodspring is in the middle of the mesquite crater or something

A very important thing to mention about Fallout is that the Black Isle/Obsidian art direction for the game is a lot more inspired by the original concept of the game (heroic fantasy tropes carried into a post apocalyptic future) while Bethesda's art direction is a lot more focused on the divergent/mad max aspect of the universe. What one prefers is up to opinions but I think it's fair to say that a lot more thought went into the art direction of fallout 3 and especially 4 than into the art direction of New Vegas, if only for the fact that Obsidian didn't actually have nearly as much time to develop the Mojave as Bethesda had to develop the Commonwealth. Even keeping the art direction thing in mind, some things in New Vegas like the firearm designs and more common outfits [I]were[/I] impacted by this lack of time.

Bethesda focus on the "its the post apocalypse everything went to shit" aspect and it shows. There's no massive amount of thought on this, but a competent job at creating the set pieces and atmosphere surrounding this concept, which is Bethesda's strong point Obsidian focus on integrating their world building with their writing. Things are not just supposed to be there, they need a reason to be there. Which is why we end up as a lot of "boring" places like farms and shacks with no purpose for the player because they don't have good loot and the desert is big and "empty" like you know, deserts are. It's content for Obsidian over eye candy for Bethesda. Which are not bad or good by themselves but would be way better if combined.

Well it's worth noting that fo4 did take some inspiration from fonv. Thee soundtracks being an example

[QUOTE=SonicHitman;49361275]Well it's worth noting that fo4 did take some inspiration from fonv. Thee soundtracks being an example[/QUOTE] It's just Inon Zur doing his job. There's no inspiration from FNV or anything, he just got better with the years.

I like the music a lot in F4. Also the design of everything. It really does feel like you're playing the concept art of the original Fallouts. Too bad everything is so clunky in terms of just playing the game.

Bethesda spends a lot of time thinking up all the aspects of the world and pretty much keep polishing it until it shines, but it comes at the cost of characterization. They're also a lot more willing to take artistic freedom on certain aspects (like the food supply and the rather nonsensical but entertaining concept of some locations like Rivet City). Fallout 4 still did a better job than Fallout 3 at making the world seem plausible if only for the fact that you actually find farms across the Commonwealth. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Number-41;49361283]I like the music a lot in F4. Also the design of everything. It really does feel like you're playing the concept art of the original Fallouts.[/QUOTE] Fallout 4 in its entirety is designed to look like the CG renders of Fallout 1 and 2, and it's gorgeous in that regard. It works so much better than Fallout 3's bump mapping vomit.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49361278]It's just Inon Zur doing his job. There's no inspiration from FNV or anything, he just got better with the years.[/QUOTE] I don't disagree, but you can't tell me you don't hear fonv's violin tune as a basis for many of the soundtracks in fo4, the diamond city track for example shares that exact tune.

[QUOTE=SonicHitman;49361275]Well it's worth noting that fo4 did take some inspiration from fonv. Thee soundtracks being an example[/QUOTE] Hell even the four route framework in the MQ was obviously inspired by New Vegas. Bethesda just doesn't have the same priorities as Obsidian when it comes to designing games.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49361295]This. I don't get why this hasn't happend yet, it's popular nowadays for multiple studios to team up. Bethesda could provide designs and concepts, and do things like the graphics and artstyle, while helping with the gameplay, and Obsidian could do the rest.[/QUOTE] It would probably cause a lot of dissonance because ultimately Obsidian's writing doesn't cover the same themes as Bethesda's visual design.

[QUOTE=ElectricSquid;49361173][media]https://youtu.be/81Baw-ePhDs[/media][/QUOTE] :(

[QUOTE=SonicHitman;49361286]I don't disagree, but you can't tell me you don't hear fonv's violin tune as a basis for many of the soundtracks in fo4, the diamond city track for example shares that exact tune.[/QUOTE] Again, i don't chalk it as "inspiration from NV", just to Inon Zur reusing some of his samples and tones. If anything he's one of the staff from Bethesda that improved the most over their spell with Fallout. I remember people being (rightfully) pissed with him replacing Mark Morgan for F3 and his tunes were unremarkable at best. He stepped up for NV (some songs are really good like the Hoover Dam one) but i still thought the one from F1 and F2 were the highest points of the game. But maybe you're right and having to work with the older tunes in mind for balance in NV gave Inon some inspiration because he really nailed if for F4 [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Ganerumo;49361298]It would probably cause a lot of dissonance because ultimately Obsidian's writing doesn't cover the same themes as Bethesda's visual design.[/QUOTE] Good design doesn't mean your writing have to be subpar. Bethesda can develop a good world with good writing if they invest more on their writers, they don't focus on it because they don't think it's that important for them (also they love Emil for some goddamn reason - guy must really be a blast at Bethesda's parties). But one thing doesn't stop the other from happening and playing this excuse just give them more reason to continue their lazy and unresponsible writing.