Fallout 4 V24: You're Tied to This Thread Kid, Your Energy - Games

[QUOTE=elowin;49362650]They literally don't appear to be any threat whatsoever to the two main established settlements. Neither Goodneighbor nor Diamond City have any significant problems with either raiders or super mutants at any point in the game. And the absolutely ridiculous amount of both is itself a reason why Fallout 4 is unbelievable.[/QUOTE] Goodneighbor seems to have deals with whoever they can find for safety, including former ties with the gunners. Diamond city is implied to have had ENORMOUS problems with mutants in years previous, having to resort to a steel trap door and constant outer-wall surveillance just to keep them at a safe distance.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362706]When you first get to Diamond City you see a group of guards fight off a group of super mutants.[/QUOTE] And it didn't really seem like a big issue.

The game makes a pretty good point of establishing the fact that raiders and super mutants are a very big issue in the commonwealth. Diamond City's constantly under attack and has to be defended by a large amount of guards. They are so dependent on their walls that they developed a cult around it. Goodneighbor manages to be safe solely due to the fact it's full of criminals and a killer robot is sitting right in front of the main gate. All the settlements outside get frequently attacked by raiders, unless you give them the proper defenses to keep them off (something the minutemen did a long time ago before they fell into disrepair and their infrastructure died with them). You can even meet a family that had a son leave to join a group of raiders, in an attempt to convince the raiders to stay away from his family's land. Not to mention the Abernathy family who recently lost a loved one to raiders.

[QUOTE=Everything;49362730]Goodneighbor seems to have deals with whoever they can find for safety, including former ties with the gunners. Diamond city is implied to have had ENORMOUS problems with mutants in years previous, having to resort to a steel trap door and constant outer-wall surveillance just to keep them at a safe distance.[/QUOTE] I've heard literally no mention of Diamond City having problems with anything but ~the institute~

[QUOTE=elowin;49362735]And it didn't really seem like a big issue.[/QUOTE] City gets attacked by giant green men with assault rifles and who carry nukes under their arm Absolutely not a big issue [editline]a[/editline] Oh also let's not forget the times when synths go berserk in Diamond City and the feral ghoul case that prompted the mayor to kick all the ghouls out of DC and into Goodneighbor.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362746]I've heard literally no mention of Diamond City having problems with anything but ~the institute~[/QUOTE] Um? It says ON LOADING SCREENS that "the minutemen first rose to prominence when they defended diamond city from a massive horde of supermutant invaders" There are mutant camps all around the place. Have you seen how close some of them are?

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362747]City gets attacked by giant green men with assault rifles and who carry nukes under their arm Absolutely not a big issue[/QUOTE] Pretty much. They don't accomplish much and they'll die out eventually.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362760]Pretty much. They don't accomplish much and they'll die out eventually.[/QUOTE] [I]They're getting nukes thrown at them. Actual nuclear warheads carried by suicide bombers.[/I]

[QUOTE=elowin;49362724]You don't need advanced communications technology to establish a city, nor a collection or cities. You only need it when you start spreading very far, really. As long as you stay in a relatively small area, eg in and around Boston, It's not really a huge issue. And I don't know what you mean with radios being tentative at best, radio communication seems pretty reliable, albeit not extremely long range.[/QUOTE] To establish any kind of nation incorporating multiple cities with relative safety in between you absolutely do need communications tech. Radio as we see it in Fallout is easily knocked out, relies on impractically large and heavy equipment, and doesn't broadcast very far, with two way radio being as good as walkie talkies. So that doesn't really work for point a to point b to point a comms. The NCR is setting up telegraph wires and laying railroad tracks, so it's able to maintain a nation. Nobody's doing this in the East because they keep getting shot to death by raiders, super mutants, the Enclave, and other semi-organized threats. The West was spread out enough that the NCR could set up relatively untouched. Yeah, there are holes in Bethesda's logic, I'm not arguing that they didn't do anything wrong, but 200 years isn't as long as it sounds. Also keep in mind that most old world infrastructure is more in the way than anything else. The old roads, tracks, airports etc. aren't stable enough for regular use, so all of that would need to be ripped up and replaced, which is an arduous task. Couple that with the fact that most machinery is decaying and the buildings are already past their expiration dates - it's only a matter of time before everything on the East Coast crumbles. The West Coast has a much lower population density, gentler terrain, and more room to spread out and build up without having to knock down all the crap in your way to begin with. It also wasn't hit as hard by nukes.

[QUOTE=Everything;49362754]Um? It says ON LOADING SCREENS that "the minutemen first rose to prominence when they defended diamond city from a massive horde of supermutant invaders"[/QUOTE] loading screen blurbs the epitome of story telling If it's not even a big enough issue that the citizens of the city actually talk about it, it's not really a big issue. And like I said earlier, the commonality of raiders and super mutants is in and of itself nonsensical

[QUOTE=elowin;49362773]loading screen blurbs the epitome of story telling If it's not even a big enough issue that the citizens of the city actually talk about it, it's not really a big issue.[/QUOTE] They do talk about it though. And so does Preston. And so do some people in Goodneighbor. And so do many other NPCs in the boston area. How did you not hear about it?

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362770]To establish any kind of nation incorporating multiple cities with relative safety in between you absolutely do need communications tech. Radio as we see it in Fallout is easily knocked out, relies on impractically large and heavy equipment, and doesn't broadcast very far, with two way radio being as good as walkie talkies. So that doesn't really work for point a to point b to point a comms. The NCR is setting up telegraph wires and laying railroad tracks, so it's able to maintain a nation. Nobody's doing this in the East because they keep getting shot to death by raiders, super mutants, the Enclave, and other semi-organized threats. The West was spread out enough that the NCR could set up relatively untouched. Yeah, there are holes in Bethesda's logic, I'm not arguing that they didn't do anything wrong, but 200 years isn't as long as it sounds. Also keep in mind that most old world infrastructure is more in the way than anything else. The old roads, tracks, airports etc. aren't stable enough for regular use, so all of that would need to be ripped up and replaced, which is an arduous task. Couple that with the fact that most machinery is decaying and the buildings are already past their expiration dates - it's only a matter of time before everything on the East Coast crumbles. The West Coast has a much lower population density, gentler terrain, and more room to spread out and build up without having to knock down all the crap in your way to begin with. It also wasn't hit as hard by nukes.[/QUOTE] dude mate guy All of that is only required for a [i]large[/i] nation. A small commonwealth between a few cities that are all relatively close? No. It's really not necessary, and much less for a single city.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362746]I've heard literally no mention of Diamond City having problems with anything but ~the institute~[/QUOTE] The front gate is often being attacked by Super Mutants, they post bounties on raider camps, and Piper brings up how the [sp]guard that murdered her dad had planned on just leaving the gate open and letting a band of raiders he'd struck up a deal with rape and pillage.[/sp] They could've done a better job at making Diamond City actually feel besieged, I think. Give you a quest where you have to clear out a breach in one of the walls, maybe let you actually see the interior of the stadium. The thing is Diamond City on the interior feels a lot more safe and civil than it looks once you actually get inside, but it looks like a garbage shantytown. Parts of goodneighbor feel more homey. Goodneighbor.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362781]dude mate guy All of that is only required for a [i]large[/i] nation. A small commonwealth between a few cities that are all relatively close? No. It's really not necessary, and much less for a single city.[/QUOTE] Okay, but that was already there for the Commonwealth until it fell apart because it was too weak to hold together and part of the focus of Fallout 4 is helping put it back together, even if it's not represented very well in gameplay because Bethesda kinda sucks.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362709]That really has no bearing on this discussion, though. Why bring it up?[/QUOTE] I was just bringing up my thoughts on something I'd already been talking about, that wasn't really relevant to the discussion. Shouldn't have said "while we're on the subject"

[QUOTE=elowin;49362781]dude mate guy All of that is only required for a [i]large[/i] nation. A small commonwealth between a few cities that are all relatively close? No. It's really not necessary, and much less for a single city.[/QUOTE] The Commonwealth is supposed to cover a decent portion of the state of Massachusetts. It's compressed in the game because they can't actually make a map the size of a state, but it's still supposed to be a state. In case you can't comprehend, that's half the size of Denmark.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;49362786]The front gate is often being attacked by Super Mutants, they post bounties on raider camps, and Piper brings up how the [sp]guard that murdered her dad had planned on just leaving the gate open and letting a band of raiders he'd struck up a deal with rape and pillage.[/sp] They could've done a better job at making Diamond City actually feel besieged, I think. Give you a quest where you have to clear out a breach in one of the walls, maybe let you actually see the interior of the stadium. The thing is Diamond City on the interior feels a lot more safe and civil than it looks once you actually get inside, but it looks like a garbage shantytown. Parts of goodneighbor feel more homey. Goodneighbor.[/QUOTE] But dude, that was before she even moved to Diamond City. And like I said, the citizens don't even talk about those super mutant attacks, thus it can be assumed they're generally a minor nuisance at best, maybe a guard dies here and there but it's not a common occurance and they don't live in constant fear of them or anything. It's just life. And they'll die out eventually, it doesn't even make sense how many of them there are now. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362787]Okay, but that was already there for the Commonwealth until it fell apart because it was too weak to hold together and part of the focus of Fallout 4 is helping put it back together, even if it's not represented very well in gameplay because Bethesda kinda sucks.[/QUOTE] i'm not talking about the little shithole settlements you can found at all I'm talking about the larger ones, aka Goodneighbour and Diamond City, and those exclusively.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362797]The Commonwealth is supposed to cover a decent portion of the state of Massachusetts. It's compressed in the game because they can't actually make a map the size of a state, but it's still supposed to be a state. In case you can't comprehend, that's half the size of Denmark.[/QUOTE] There's this too. Concord is a 40 minute drive from Boston in real scale, but it's a 5 minute walk in Fallout 4.

Why the fuck would the citizen of Diamond City talk 24/7 about super mutants ? That's not how human beings work, they don't automatically pick the closest threat and constantly talk about it, especially when there's a mayor and guards constantly hammering the point home that shit's safe and they they have a wall to guard them. Your point makes absolutely no sense and any attempt at responding to it is met with you just being dense.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362800]i'm not talking about the little shithole settlements you can found at all I'm talking about the larger ones, aka Goodneighbour and Diamond City, and those exclusively.[/QUOTE] Literally the entire cities of Boston and Concord were populated and "civil" until [I]whatever[/I] (presumably the collapse of the Minutemen as it seems like they were the unifying force) happened to cause it to collapse. The surviving bastions of civilization are Diamond City and Goodneighbor, two [B]walled enclaves[/B] in the middle of what used to be a relatively safe place.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362809]Why the fuck would the citizen of Diamond City talk 24/7 about super mutants ? That's not how human beings work, they don't automatically pick the closest threat and constantly talk about it, especially when there's a mayor and guards constantly hammering the point home that shit's safe and they they have a wall to guard them.[/QUOTE] While normally I would bring up the justification of "Well they don't like to talk about it, they just pretend everything is okay like humans in an enclosed settlement might" But a key plot point of Diamond City is that the citizens are OBSESSED with the Synth bogeyman. It's weird that they talk about that, but not the Super Mutants nigh-perpetually out their front door.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;49362822]While normally I would bring up the justification of "Well they don't like to talk about it, they just pretend everything is okay like humans in an enclosed settlement might" But a key plot point of Diamond City is that the citizens are OBSESSED with the Synth bogeyman. It's weird that they talk about that, but not the Super Mutants nigh-perpetually out their front door.[/QUOTE] They have deluded themselves into thinking the wall is impenetrable, so the mutants can't get them. But the synths can. People disappear in the night and are replaced with synth doubles. Their wall can't protect them from that, so it's rattled them.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362797]The Commonwealth is supposed to cover a decent portion of the state of Massachusetts. It's compressed in the game because they can't actually make a map the size of a state, but it's still supposed to be a state. In case you can't comprehend, that's half the size of Denmark.[/QUOTE] ...And? Why does this matter? It doesn't. A coalition wouldn't have to span the entire fucking region, the size of the region doesn't matter. And the difficulties of a fucking coalition doesn't fucking matter either. After 200 years, it makes no sense that society is still this shitty, even in the largest settlements. There is no logical reason for this. There are plenty of illogical reasons, like Boston having a literally infinite supply of Super Mutants, which somehow came from a source that at best could supply a small band of them. Step the fuck back and think about your argument for a second, people.

[QUOTE=Simplemac3;49362822]While normally I would bring up the justification of "Well they don't like to talk about it, they just pretend everything is okay like humans in an enclosed settlement might" But a key plot point of Diamond City is that the citizens are OBSESSED with the Synth bogeyman. It's weird that they talk about that, but not the Super Mutants nigh-perpetually out their front door.[/QUOTE] That's because synths are constantly brought up by Piper and her sister. Also, Synths are an inside threat that already got into the city, so people are getting really paranoid over them for that reason. The supermutants are outside, and while it practically prevents anyone from leaving without getting turned into gory paste, they're still stopped by the wall. For the average joe, the Institute is a much more visible threat, since they're already there, and they can't really do much to avoid them.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362741]words[/QUOTE] The settlement system makes a good point in showing how raiders can be a menace to everyone out there (as preston loves to remind me every goddamn second) and mutants carrying nukes to suicide bomb shit is definitely a menace (but a dumb one - seriously, what is their purpose? what does that accomplish? how killing yourself to kill an enemy benefits the mutants in any way?), but not to why everyone just sit on their asses waiting for the sole survivor to sort shit out. And don't bring me the "because they can't!" stuff because some of the basic defenses are so easy to pull literally anyone can do it Sure, it can fall to the "it's a game, you need to give stuff for the player to do" which justify a lot of stuff in 1, 2 and NV too, but not all of them. They usually pulled this move with stuff that was either something out of their reachs (like House asking you to take the chip from Benny and turning his securitrons in the fort or Caesar asking you to operate inside NCR borders) or inconsequential stuff (like the boomers asking you to get the bomber - sure, they want to ride it, but it's not like they depend on it for their lives or anything, they're doing pretty well already) The rest of the stuff is already happening and when you help, you're just another hand speeding the process. The Omertas are carrying out their plan to gas the strip whether you get involved or not. The White Glove Society is carrying on with their plan of going back to caniballism without you getting involved. Novac convinced Boone and Manny to help them out with the ghouls and creatures instead of waiting for a courier to pass by and sort their problems. The Khans realized the threat of the second Hoover Dam war and are on the brink of an allegiance with the Legion. Which on the other hand make their move to murder Kimball regardless of what faction you follow. The game makes an effort to show people doing stuff without your character being needed to start everything (even when you still need to start the quests for them to be completed - after all, it's a game) and that helps the game to feel more alive. F4 improved A LOT over F3 in this aspect but there were still room for more improvement

[QUOTE=elowin;49362830]...And? Why does this matter? It doesn't. A coalition wouldn't have to span the entire fucking region, the size of the region doesn't matter. And the difficulties of a fucking coalition doesn't fucking matter either. After 200 years, it makes no sense that society is still this shitty, even in the largest settlements. There is no logical reason for this. There are plenty of illogical reasons, like Boston having a literally infinite supply of Super Mutants, which somehow came from a source that at best could supply a small band of them. Step the fuck back and think about your argument for a second, people.[/QUOTE] [I]But it's been explained time and time again within the lore that shit used to be more stable but got worse in recent time.[/I] God damn you're dense.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362830]...And? Why does this matter? It doesn't. A coalition wouldn't have to span the entire fucking region, the size of the region doesn't matter. And the difficulties of a fucking coalition doesn't fucking matter either. After 200 years, it makes no sense that society is still this shitty, even in the largest settlements. There is no logical reason for this. There are plenty of illogical reasons, like Boston having a literally infinite supply of Super Mutants, which somehow came from a source that at best could supply a small band of them. Step the fuck back and think about your argument for a second, people.[/QUOTE] If only you bothered to actually read instead of just spewing. Society in the Commonwealth [I]was[/I] restored, it [I]was[/I] stable, it [I]was[/I] not shitty, and now it [I]is[/I] again because the glue that held it together failed.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362809]Why the fuck would the citizen of Diamond City talk 24/7 about super mutants ? That's not how human beings work, they don't automatically pick the closest threat and constantly talk about it, especially when there's a mayor and guards constantly hammering the point home that shit's safe and they they have a wall to guard them. Your point makes absolutely no sense and any attempt at responding to it is met with you just being dense.[/QUOTE] yes thank you, you summed up my argument perfectly. you're making no sense and are completely dense. also stop strawmanning plskthx

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362835][I]But it's been explained time and time again within the lore that shit used to be more stable but got worse in recent time.[/I] God damn you're dense.[/QUOTE] Please explain then. Come on. Explain to me how it fell apart, and I will pick apart your reasons. I'm just going to ignore everyone else at this point because arguing with twenty different people is a fucking clusterfuck.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362839]yes thank you, you summed up my argument perfectly. you're making no sense and are completely dense. also stop strawmanning plskthx[/QUOTE] You're asking questions answered by the game and acting like they're massive plot holes when in reality you just w+m1'd through the story and didn't read anything or listen to anyone. The game has big issues and big plot holes but the thing you're complaining about is neither. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for the geopolitical scattering in Fallout 4's Commonwealth which was actually given in game and explained to you in this thread and you seemingly ignored it on both occasions.