[QUOTE=elowin;49362830]...And?
Why does this matter?
It doesn't. A coalition wouldn't have to span the entire fucking region, the size of the region doesn't matter. And the difficulties of a fucking coalition doesn't fucking matter either.
After 200 years, it makes no sense that society is still this shitty, even in the largest settlements. There is no logical reason for this.
There are plenty of illogical reasons, like Boston having a literally infinite supply of Super Mutants, which somehow came from a source that at best could supply a small band of them.
Step the fuck back and think about your argument for a second, people.[/QUOTE]
You're the only one who needs to think in here. You expect the fucking Commonwealth to be like the NCR, when the conditions have not been the same, and no one has stepped up to unite every single settlement, organize and defend them.
It's completely fucking plausible. How many years did humanity live like isolated tribes [B]before[/B] they united to become nations, republics, empires? It is not a requirement to make a republic when you can just live peacefully inside your walls, defended and well fed.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362848]Please explain then. Come on. Explain to me how it fell apart, and I will pick apart your reasons.
I'm just going to ignore everyone else at this point because arguing with twenty different people is a fucking clusterfuck.[/QUOTE]
The few attempts at a solidified federal government from smaller groups fell apart because the Institute nipped it in the bud. Due to this, nobody else has tried doing a similar coalition because they're afraid of Synths kicking the door open and gunning down everybody [I]again[/I].
The minutemen were the closest the people of the Commonwealth ever got to safety, [I]a century ago[/I]. Over time, the faction dwindled down and sparked more and more internal conflicts to the point where some time before the events of Fallout 4 they practically backstabbed each other, started a massacre, and imploded with a good portion of the minutemen retiring and others leaving to create groups of raiders.
There were attempts to create a relatively safe infrastructure. They just failed horribly for the most part, couldn't live long enough for the protagonist to see them at their best, and sometimes succeeded - see Diamond City, and how the feral crisis lead to Goodneighbor being created.
The NCR was founded at roughly the same time as the minutemen. Except the NCR succeeded and the Minutemen failed, leading to political stability in California and instability in Massachusetts. And guess what ? 100 years after the creation of the NCR, there's visible traces of corruption and internal conflict erupting within it, as shown by some of the conflicts in the mojave and mentions of conflicts within NCR territory (as well as mentions of criminal organizations having no difficulty surviving in NCR territory), so even they can't hold their shit together for that long without some problems surfacing.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49362834]mutants carrying nukes to suicide bomb shit is definitely a menace (but a dumb one - seriously, what is their purpose? what does that accomplish? how killing yourself to kill an enemy benefits the mutants in any way?)[/QUOTE]
Small thing - I think that misses the point of the Mutants in this game. There is no real purpose to it, besides to kill you. The Super Mutants don't have access to FEV, so they can't swell their numbers; they don't have any leadership, so they don't have any goals. All they're doing is killing as many people as they can, because they don't know what else to do with themselves; they don't have the mental stability or intelligence of the Master's Mutants, so they've become nothing more than mindless raiders.
If there is any greater goal behind it, considering how obsessed they are with being the superior race in this game, it may just be to cleanse the Earth of the lesser species.
So,i've read everything you said in those pages,and i'm surprised that no ones talk about .. the fact that fallout 1 is 84 year AFTER the great war. Fallout 4 is like 200 year after the great war. to show you how lazy bethesda has been. What i mean is,in 84 year people successfully built "The hub" "Junktown" and "Shady sands" some seemingly clean citie with rebuilt building all likes the graveyard with the hydroponics crops.
[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;49362914]So,i've read everything you said in those pages,and i'm surprised that no ones talk about .. the fact that fallout 1 is 84 year AFTER the great war. Fallout 4 is like 200 year after the great war. to show you how lazy bethesda has been. What i mean is,in 84 year people successfully built "The hub" "Junktown" and "Shady sands" some seemingly clean citie with rebuilt building all likes the graveyard with the hydroponics crops.[/QUOTE]
Wow it's almost like the capital wasteland was rendered largely uninhabited due to super mutants until the brotherhood started wiping them out some time before 3 begins and the commonwealth was in the process of rebuilding until the institute sabotaged it and their society fell apart and that's what we've been discussing for the past few pages.
In short: civilization takes several tries to get right. Civilizations rise and fall and are slightly refined with each resurrection. The modern day United Kingdom government descends from the Roman occupation of Britanny. The United States government descends from the British occupation, then two separate tries at a domestic government. Et cetera.
[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;49362914]So,i've read everything you said in those pages,and i'm surprised that no ones talk about .. the fact that fallout 1 is 84 year AFTER the great war. Fallout 4 is like 200 year after the great war. to show you how lazy bethesda has been. What i mean is,in 84 year people successfully built "The hub" "Junktown" and "Shady sands" some seemingly clean citie with rebuilt building all likes the graveyard with the hydroponics crops.[/QUOTE]
Why lazy? Can't it be just different?
[QUOTE=_charon;49362912]Small thing - I think that misses the point of the Mutants in this game. There is no real purpose to it, besides to kill you. The Super Mutants don't have access to FEV, so they can't swell their numbers; they don't have any leadership, so they don't have any goals. All they're doing is killing as many people as they can, because they don't know what else to do with themselves; they don't have the mental stability or intelligence of the Master's Mutants, so they've become nothing more than mindless raiders.
If there is any greater goal behind it, considering how obsessed they are with being the superior race in this game, it may just be to cleanse the Earth of the lesser species.[/QUOTE]
Even the dumb mutants from F3 kidnapped humans to dip into FEV or turning them into pretty gore bag decorations for their ruined houses or just eat them and stuff. Anyway they well enjoyed living because they didn't suicide themselves over a guy with a 10mm plinking at them. Killing yourself, pulverizing the human that you could do whatever if you got him and possibly injurying the other supermutants around really doesn't seem to have any purpose other than "let's make a hard to deal enemy"
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49362873]The few attempts at a solidified federal government from smaller groups fell apart because the Institute nipped it in the bud. Due to this, nobody else has tried doing a similar coalition because they're afraid of Synths kicking the door open and gunning down everybody [I]again[/I].
The minutemen were the closest the people of the Commonwealth ever got to safety, [I]a century ago[/I]. Over time, the faction dwindled down and sparked more and more internal conflicts to the point where some time before the events of Fallout 4 they practically backstabbed each other, started a massacre, and imploded with a good portion of the minutemen retiring and others leaving to create groups of raiders.
There were attempts to create a relatively safe infrastructure. They just failed horribly for the most part, couldn't live long enough for the protagonist to see them at their best, and sometimes succeeded - see Diamond City, and how the feral crisis lead to Goodneighbor being created.
The NCR was founded at roughly the same time as the minutemen. Except the NCR succeeded and the Minutemen failed, leading to political stability in California and instability in Massachusetts. And guess what ? 100 years after the creation of the NCR, there's visible traces of corruption and internal conflict erupting within it, as shown by some of the conflicts in New Vegas, so even they can't hold their shit together for that long without some problems surfacing.[/QUOTE]
I never said there needed to be a coalition. I know the Institute fucked up the coalition that was being formed.
What doesn't make sense is that Diamond City, despite being perfectly safe behind their walls, is still a fucking scrap heap. They have had almost two hundred years since they were founded in 2130, and they're still building things out of literal scrap. The supposed "high class" section of the city literally lives on dinghy ass pieces of scrap metal welded together, which looks like it could fall apart any second.
The only decent clothing is pre-war.
The only decent weapons are pre-war.
The only decent armor is pre-war, to the point where the guards are wearing fucking baseball "armor."
Everything is pre-war.
Why is nobody producing things?
Why is nobody building decent homes? Not even the people who are allegedly rich and privileged?
Why are the only people with jobs in the entire city either merchants, bartenders, hair dressers or fucking [i]plastic surgeons[/i]?
[QUOTE=ApertureXS200;49362914]So,i've read everything you said in those pages,and i'm surprised that no ones talk about .. the fact that fallout 1 is 84 year AFTER the great war. Fallout 4 is like 200 year after the great war. to show you how lazy bethesda has been. What i mean is,in 84 year people successfully built "The hub" "Junktown" and "Shady sands" some seemingly clean citie with rebuilt building all likes the graveyard with the hydroponics crops.[/QUOTE]
Diamond City's been around for more than a hundred years. Quincy used to be populated and in good shape, until shit got down bad and the minutemen made it even worse. Goodneighbor, while a recent city, is in rather good shape despite not being very recommendable. The Bog's a decent settlement that's doing rather well for itself. Vault 81 is in very good shape as well.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362936]I never said there needed to be a coalition. I know the Institute fucked up the coalition that was being formed.
What doesn't make sense is that Diamond City, despite being perfectly safe behind their walls, is still a fucking scrap heap. They have had almost two hundred years since they were founded in 2130, and they're still building things out of literal scrap. The supposed "high class" section of the city literally lives on dinghy ass pieces of scrap metal welded together, which looks like it could fall apart any second.
The only decent clothing is pre-war.
The only decent weapons are pre-war.
The only decent armor is pre-war, to the point where the guards are wearing fucking baseball "armor."
Everything is pre-war.
Why is nobody producing things?
Why is nobody building decent homes? Not even the people who are allegedly rich and privileged?
Why are the only people with jobs in the entire city either merchants, hair dressers or fucking [i]plastic surgeons[/i]?[/QUOTE]
Where are they going to produce modern building materials? In the run down, collapsing factories? No, they'd have to build new factories. Where can they build new factories? Nowhere, the old factories are in the way. Who knows how to get rid of the old factories? Nobody, they're all dead. What machines would be used to do it? None, they're all rusted to bits. Where can we get new machines? New factories...
Small scale equipment has survived to maintain small bits of materiel. But there's no way for them to build up a new manufacturing base. Society as we think of it is in a big loop. We build factories to build machines to build more factories. That loop has been broken in Fallout and nobody knows what to do about it and nobody needs to do anything about it since what they have is enough to get by on.
[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49362935]Even the dumb mutants from F3 kidnapped humans to dip into FEV or turning them into pretty gore bag decorations for their ruined houses or just eat them and stuff. Anyway they well enjoyed living because they didn't suicide themselves over a guy with a 10mm plinking at them. Killing yourself, pulverizing the human that you could do whatever if you got him and possibly injurying the other supermutants around really doesn't seem to have any purpose other than "let's make a hard to deal enemy"[/QUOTE]
But they don't have any FEV to dunk people in, what's the point of letting them live?
Also, in [sp]Trinity Tower[/sp], the mutant on the intercom mentions stuff about how it was good that you killed the Super Mutants on the lower levels, because a Mutant that couldn't kill a human didn't deserve to live. Considering how fanatical they are, maybe Suiciders are Mutants who believe they're too weak to stand up to a human in combat, and would rather die gloriously than live shamefully?
Also, as for the "possibly injuring other Super Mutants" thing, Mutants are not the sharpest tools in the shed.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362955]Where are they going to produce modern building materials? In the run down, collapsing factories? No, they'd have to build new factories. Where can they build new factories? Nowhere, the old factories are in the way. Who knows how to get rid of the old factories? Nobody, they're all dead. What machines would be used to do it? None, they're all rusted to bits. Where can we get new machines? New factories...[/QUOTE]
In order:
Getting rid of old factories is not exactly a science.
Everyone is not dead, there would still be plenty of scientists alive. There are tons of doctors across the wasteland and, I remind you, a fucking plastic surgeon.
Machines can be repaired, and just look at how many fully functional robots are left, even without getting any repairs.
You can build new machines. You can build new factories. The factories of the old world didn't just magically pop up out of nowhere.
Every part of your argument is terrible.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362936]I never said there needed to be a coalition. I know the Institute fucked up the coalition that was being formed.
What doesn't make sense is that Diamond City, despite being perfectly safe behind their walls, is still a fucking scrap heap. They have had almost two hundred years since they were founded in 2130, and they're still building things out of literal scrap. The supposed "high class" section of the city literally lives on dinghy ass pieces of scrap metal welded together, which looks like it could fall apart any second.
The only decent clothing is pre-war.
The only decent weapons are pre-war.
The only decent armor is pre-war, to the point where the guards are wearing fucking baseball "armor."
Everything is pre-war.
Why is nobody producing things?
Why is nobody building decent homes? Not even the people who are allegedly rich and privileged?
Why are the only people with jobs in the entire city either merchants, hair dressers or fucking [i]plastic surgeons[/i]?[/QUOTE]
Yeah sure lemme just build a fucking weapons factory here inside this stadium.
Yeah sure lemme make my house out of fucking concrete and bricks when there's plenty of scrap metal laying around, readily available.
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;49362786]The front gate is often being attacked by Super Mutants, they post bounties on raider camps, and Piper brings up how the [sp]guard that murdered her dad had planned on just leaving the gate open and letting a band of raiders he'd struck up a deal with rape and pillage.[/sp]
[/QUOTE]
No. This was before Piper even moved to Diamond City. She even says it.
Also did anyone know that your romance partner can break up with you? It's the same as losing affinity with them but after you hit their max but if you get the affinity back they get back together with you. I'm surprised Bethesda even voiced these things if almost no one will see it.
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhMTe7Bp5AU[/media]
[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49362982]Yeah sure lemme just build a fucking weapons factory here inside this stadium.
Yeah sure lemme make my house out of fucking concrete and bricks when there's plenty of scrap metal laying around, readily available.[/QUOTE]
Do people in real life make their houses out of scrap metal?
Because there is plenty of that available in reality too, you know. Scrap metal doesn't make for a very comfortable or aesthetically pleasing home, though, and the aforementioned rich and privileged would prioritize that highly.
[QUOTE=_charon;49362912]Small thing - I think that misses the point of the Mutants in this game. There is no real purpose to it, besides to kill you. The Super Mutants don't have access to FEV, so they can't swell their numbers; they don't have any leadership, so they don't have any goals. All they're doing is killing as many people as they can, because they don't know what else to do with themselves; they don't have the mental stability or intelligence of the Master's Mutants, so they've become nothing more than mindless raiders.
If there is any greater goal behind it, considering how obsessed they are with being the superior race in this game, it may just be to cleanse the Earth of the lesser species.[/QUOTE]
i actually really like the way the Supermutants are represented in Fallout 4. In 3 they were like dumb ogres on bath salts, constantly screaming. This go around, they're still appropriately brutal, but if you sneak around you can overhear little conversations and exchanges during their down time (much like raiders) that give them more personality.
I especially like hearing:
"Look at me, Brother! I am Super Mutant! I am death!"
"But...I am Super Mutant too. We...all Super Mutant."
"Yes, but I am strongest!"
"We all the same. It is... what it is."
"You just wait. One day, I will be leading you!"
"Haha. Maybe you're right, Brother. Maybe you're right."
That exchange can actually branch a few different ways depending on the voice assigned to the second mutant NPC, but I just love the idea of the supermutants accidentally stumbling into philosophical arguments enough that I don't mind hearing it multiple times.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362979]In order:
Getting rid of old factories is not exactly a science.
Everyone is not dead, there would still be plenty of scientists alive. There are tons of doctors across the wasteland and, I remind you, a fucking plastic surgeon.
Machines can be repaired, and just look at how many fully functional robots are left, even without getting any repairs.
You can build new machines. You can build new factories. The factories of the old world didn't just magically pop up out of nowhere.
Every part of your argument is terrible.[/QUOTE]
I'm convinced you have no idea about how anything works now.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362979]I remind you, a fucking plastic surgeon.[/QUOTE]
reminder that he is not a good plastic surgeon
I mean, yeah, he works well for the player, but how would a botched surgery on the player even work. He's using whatever pre-war garbage he found lying around for tools, does it in a [I]real[/I] doctor's basement, and [sp]botches a surgery on a guy so badly that he goes nuts and kills him to hide his failure, before committing suicide through a drug overdose.[/sp] He is not an effective surgeon.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362992]Do people in real life make their houses out of scrap metal?[/QUOTE]
Yes they fucking do
[t]https://endangerededen.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/nairobi-kibera-slums-photo-fracnes-woodhams-home-to-700000-kenyans.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=elowin;49362979]In order:
Getting rid of old factories is not exactly a science.
Everyone is not dead, there would still be plenty of scientists alive. There are tons of doctors across the wasteland and, I remind you, a fucking plastic surgeon.
Machines can be repaired, and just look at how many fully functional robots are left, even without getting any repairs.
You can build new machines. You can build new factories. The factories of the old world didn't just magically pop up out of nowhere.
Every part of your "argument" is a fallacy.[/QUOTE]
Removing old buildings and constructing new ones is a multi part process of which every link in the chain has been broken. The scale of which things were built pre-war means there's a lot of shit in the way to even start tearing things down let alone building new things up. Additionally there's loads of logistics required that nobody knows anything about. The kinds of scientists and doctors we see around aren't really engineers. The only groups with access to that type of knowledge keep it to themselves, like the Enclave and the Brotherhood.
Robots maintain themselves and each other. I wouldn't describe most of them as fully functional anyway.
There's been no push on the East Coast to start over because there's so much pre-war surplus that there's been no real reason to as of yet. Surviving pre-war machines were still working and are now beginning to fail or otherwise pass the point where they can't be maintained anymore.
Before any of the high tech factories we have today existed things were built out of wood and metal sheets just like they are in Fallout 4. Ever seen 1800s frontier homes and barns? They're shitty.
The high tech factories we have today came out of the low tech factories we had before, which involved much more fine work and manual labor and engineering that can be interrupted and ruined so easily there's no time and no place to do it on the East Coast in Fallout. Nobody has time or money or space or manpower to sit and tinker like Bessemer or Henry Ford.
[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363004]I'm convinced you have no idea about how anything works now.[/QUOTE]
I'm convinced you have no argument. Disprove me.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362992]Do people in real life make their houses out of scrap metal?
Because there is plenty of that available in reality too, you know. Scrap metal doesn't make for a very comfortable or aesthetically pleasing home, though, and the aforementioned rich and privileged would prioritize that highly.[/QUOTE]
People do, actually.
[QUOTE=elowin;49362992]Do people in real life make their houses out of scrap metal?
Because there is plenty of that available in reality too, you know. Scrap metal doesn't make for a very comfortable or aesthetically pleasing home, though, and the aforementioned rich and privileged would prioritize that highly.[/QUOTE]
First of all, I doubt the rich built it themselves. I think the houses where there before.
Second, the houses they live in, while not made of solid gold, are on a PRIVILEGED position in the city, in the upper stands. That's all that matters to them.
[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363015]Removing old buildings and constructing new ones is a multi part process of which every link in the chain has been broken. The scale of which things were built pre-war means there's a lot of shit in the way to even start tearing things down let alone building new things up. Additionally there's loads of logistics required that nobody knows anything about. The kinds of scientists and doctors we see around aren't really engineers. The only groups with access to that type of knowledge keep it to themselves, like the Enclave and the Brotherhood.
Robots maintain themselves and each other. I wouldn't describe most of them as fully functional anyway.
There's been no push on the East Coast to start over because there's so much pre-war surplus that there's been no real reason to as of yet. Surviving pre-war machines were still working and are now beginning to fail or otherwise pass the point where they can't be maintained anymore.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, what.
Are you seriously suggesting that there are no engineers?
Why would there be no engineers? The sciences are clearly still alive. I'm not sure how most wasteland doctors get educated but my guess would be self education with help from pre-war books, and there are certainly also books on engineering. Hell, there's even examples of engineers around the wastes, like Sturges and Crazy Tom.
[QUOTE=elowin;49363040]I'm sorry, what.
Are you seriously suggesting that there are no engineers?
Why would there be no engineers? The sciences are clearly still alive. I'm not sure how most wasteland doctors get educated but my guess would be self education with help from pre-war books, and there are certainly also books on engineering. Hell, there's even examples of engineers around the wastes, like Sturges and Crazy Tom.[/QUOTE]
Sturges and Tinker Tom aren't the kind of engineer that plans and oversees construction of factories. They're self taught small scale handymen more than engineers.
[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363035]First of all, I doubt the rich built it themselves. I think the houses where there before.
Second, the houses they live in, while not made of solid gold, are on a PRIVILEGED position in the city, in the upper stands. That's all that matters to them.[/QUOTE]
Uhh... no.
The upper stands were definitely not there before the war, and there were certainly not houses there. I'm not really sure how you can think that was the case.
[QUOTE=elowin;49363047]Uhh... no.
The upper stands were definitely not there before the war, and there were certainly not houses there. I'm not really sure how you can think that was the case.[/QUOTE]
He meant that the folks who originally settled Diamond City built them there first.
[QUOTE=_charon;49362975]But they don't have any FEV to dunk people in, what's the point of letting them live?
Also, in [sp]Trinity Tower[/sp], the mutant on the intercom mentions stuff about how it was good that you killed the Super Mutants on the lower levels, because a Mutant that couldn't kill a human didn't deserve to live. Considering how fanatical they are, maybe Suiciders are Mutants who believe they're too weak to stand up to a human in combat, and would rather die gloriously than live shamefully?
Also, as for the "possibly injuring other Super Mutants" thing, Mutants are not the sharpest tools in the shed.[/QUOTE]
Even the dumbest of the animals has some sense of self preservation. And well they still keep their gore bags around in ther camps. Maybe it's how you said about them being fanatical and not thinking they can take out a human in any other way (even when they, well, can) but i still don't think it's a well thought decision more than a "let's make a tense enemy running with a bomb towards the player". It's less a matter of "why would they let this human live" and more of a "why would you kill yourself that way for a single human"
Specially because that other poster (sorry posting from the previous page) reminded that they are not as dumb as they were in F3 anymore.
Maybe it just feels weird to me because i'm too used to west coast mutants and i keep forgetting how different the east coast ones are though.
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