Fallout 4 V24: You're Tied to This Thread Kid, Your Energy - Games

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363046]Sturges and Tinker Tom aren't the kind of engineer that plans and oversees construction of factories. They're self taught small scale handymen more than engineers.[/QUOTE] All you need is a couple guys like that and a few years to figure everything out, maybe finding some pre-war tech manuals. That's literally all it would require to repair or rejigger a pre-war factory. It's really, really not as hard as you're making it out to be, especially since Boston wasn't even hit that hard by the bombs, most of it is still in tact, just old and rusty.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363065]All you need is a couple guys like that and a few years to figure everything out, maybe finding some pre-war tech manuals. That's literally all it would require to repair or rejigger a pre-war factory. It's really, really not as hard as you're making it out to be, especially since Boston wasn't even hit that hard by the bombs, most of it is still in tact, just old and rusty.[/QUOTE] Why the fuck would they go through the effort though ? There's no need for any of that because they already have plenty of resources right there.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49363055]Even the dumbest of the animals has some sense of self preservation. And well they still keep their gore bags around in ther camps. Maybe it's how you said about them being fanatical and not thinking they can take out a human in any other way (even when they, well, can) but i still don't think it's a well thought decision more than a "let's make a tense enemy running with a bomb towards the player" Specially because that other poster (sorry posting from the previous page) reminded that they are not as dumb as they were in F3 anymore. Maybe it just feels weird to me because i'm too used to west coast mutants and i keep forgetting how different the east coast ones are though.[/QUOTE] Plenty of humans with bombs running around blowing themselves up these days, why not deformed, mentally unstable green people? [sp]also what you said about the gore bags made me think of them stuffing corpses in pots then throwing explosives in with them like some kind of serial killer soup to make the gore and it amuses me for some reason[/sp] edit: and yeah, Gen 1 mutants and Vault 87/Commonwealth mutants have almost nothing in common The Master Mutant's were basically superhumans, even if they weren't always intellectually superior, while the East Coasters are less than animals, especially without the FEV giving them a common goal.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363047]Uhh... no. The upper stands were definitely not there before the war, and there were certainly not houses there. I'm not really sure how you can think that was the case.[/QUOTE] Wow, literally wow. I OBVIOUSLY meant the people who built Diamond City put them there, then the rich people moved in later. Rich people don't build houses. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;49363016]I'm convinced you have no argument. Disprove me.[/QUOTE] Also, the guy who said "200 years" and thought this was a valid counterargument is saying this to me.

[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363081]Wow, literally wow. I OBVIOUSLY meant the people who built Diamond City put them there, then the rich people moved in later. Rich people don't build houses.[/QUOTE] Right, right, excuse me. I meant they didn't hire people to build non-shitty houses for them. Because that's what rich people would do.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363040]I'm sorry, what. Are you seriously suggesting that there are no engineers? Why would there be no engineers? The sciences are clearly still alive. I'm not sure how most wasteland doctors get educated but my guess would be self education with help from pre-war books, and there are certainly also books on engineering. Hell, there's even examples of engineers around the wastes, like Sturges and Crazy Tom.[/QUOTE] Diamond City has existed for maybe 140 years, but that argument is literally the same as "Come on guys, it's 2015, why are we still doing ______. Simply stating the date is not actually a legitimate argument. Your argument is literally denying him saying anything at all, saying "Your argument is bad!" and then offering no actual terms against him.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363065]All you need is a couple guys like that and a few years to figure everything out, maybe finding some pre-war tech manuals. That's literally all it would require to repair or rejigger a pre-war factory. It's really, really not as hard as you're making it out to be, especially since Boston wasn't even hit that hard by the bombs, most of it is still in tact, just old and rusty.[/QUOTE] If that's all it takes it wouldn't have taken until the [B]1850s[/B] for decent steel to be mass produced. It's really not as simple as a backyard handyman and some genuine nutbag getting together and deciding to kick off a new industrial revolution. The logistics involved in getting one factory online and producing anything useful are far beyond most people. Nobody on the East Coast has or needs to have that kind of knowledge at the time we're dealing with in the games because there's enough pre-war surplus materiel to get by and suit their needs. On the West Coast the NCR is building new buildings, laying new roads and railways, and beginning to flirt with the idea of flight - because scarcity hit the West Coast hard before the war. There wasn't much to work with there and what there was was depleted by the 2250s.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362979]In order: Getting rid of old factories is not exactly a science. Everyone is not dead, there would still be plenty of scientists alive. There are tons of doctors across the wasteland and, I remind you, a fucking plastic surgeon. Machines can be repaired, and just look at how many fully functional robots are left, even without getting any repairs. You can build new machines. You can build new factories. The factories of the old world didn't just magically pop up out of nowhere. Every part of your argument is terrible.[/QUOTE] So you expect some settlers with no machinery to tear down the factory, clear out the rubble, build this factory, repair and move all this other salvaged machinery in, all the while fighting off super mutants and raiders, just so they can manufacture brand new M-4's? And you have the nerve to call people's arguments terrible? Your "simple" solutions are anything but.

Also, can we give Bethesda some credit for building a much more believable worldspace after learning from their mistakes in 3? Just the fact that there are at least a dozen farms set up across the land acknowledges that cornerstone of sensible worldbuilding: that people need a reliable source of food and water in order to settle in one place. The greater presence of roving caravans, the dependence on hard labor that occupies most people's daily schedules, the logs you read at Libertalia, Red Tourette's rationing depot, & Tower Tom's brewery, the whole Longneck Lukowksi shebang, the Brotherhood needing to contract with (or demand tribute from) local farms, the developments at the Slog & Nordhagen Beach... I think 3 had one mention of hydroponics in Rivet City. I know, I know, the "what do they eat?" argument is tired, but Bethesda still deserves acknowledgement for how they stepped up their world design immensely for this game.

All you people talking about how things don't make sense after 200 years when there are settlements out there that need our help.

[QUOTE=elowin;49362936] Why are the only people with jobs in the entire city either merchants, bartenders, hair dressers or fucking [i]plastic surgeons[/i]?[/QUOTE] Oh you are totally right! Why aren't there teachers, people working on making purified water, scientists, mayors, secretaries, people working on the wall to make sure it doesn't break down, radio djs, journalists, detectives and guards? It's crazy that they wouldn't have any people doing those jobs.

[QUOTE=_charon;49363076]Plenty of humans with bombs running around blowing themselves up these days, why not deformed, mentally unstable green people? [sp]also what you said about the gore bags made me think of them stuffing corpses in pots then throwing explosives in with them like some kind of serial killer soup to make the gore and it amuses me for some reason[/sp][/QUOTE] The humans with bombs are (arguably) rational beings with (arguably) reasonable reasons (for themselves) to blow themselves up and they wouldn't do it just to kill some nobody running around with a pistol when they can live another day and do more damage with their waste of life so your point doesn't quite stick? I mean if there were a sound justification for the bombers in-game it would be another thing but it's all speculation based on that line from Trinity Tower so i'm still not convinced. It's like they're too dumb to be more seletive with their bombing but also too smart to understand the concept of dying for a cause but still dumb to realize they still have the in-game strength to be more useful surviving and ugh. Anyway it's just a minor point that bothers me. Might even be a bit of nitpicking from my part but still bothers me a little.

[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363109]So you expect some settlers with no machinery to tear down the factory, clear out the rubble, build this factory, repair and move all this other salvaged machinery in, all the while fighting off super mutants and raiders, [B]just so they can manufacture brand new M-4's[/B]? And you have the nerve to call people's arguments terrible? Your "simple" solutions are as simple as they are asinine.[/QUOTE] --[I]when the old ones are still suiting their purposes.[/I]

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49363069]Why the fuck would they go through the effort though ? There's no need for any of that because they already have plenty of resources right there.[/QUOTE] The city guards are using "armor" which is literally just baseball gear. That's a demand right there, demand for better armor. Make better armor, sell it to the city, earn cash. Basic business. The rich are living in scrap metal houses, they want something that at least doesn't look like literal garbage. That's another demand. Set up a company that makes better houses, sell houses to the rich, become richer yourself. Basic business.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362955]Where are they going to produce modern building materials?[/QUOTE] The whole point of settlement building is that you're able to salvage and rebuild. Vendors even have building materials like [B]Shipment of Steel - 100[/B] available so they're clearly in circulation. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362955]Where can they build new factories? Nowhere, the old factories are in the way.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously suggesting that this largely barren, desolate wasteland has no room for new buildings? [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362955]Who knows how to get rid of the old factories? Nobody, they're all dead.[/QUOTE] Now the people will never discover the lost art of knocking down a building with explosives, truly an ancient enigma. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49362955]What machines would be used to do it? None, they're all rusted to bits. Where can we get new machines? New factories...[/QUOTE] Part of the main quest has you build [sp]a TELEPORTER[/sp] from scrap metal, repairing an assembly line shouldn't be rocket science.

[QUOTE=Saza;49363099]Diamond City has existed for maybe 140 years, but that argument is literally the same as "Come on guys, it's 2015, why are we still doing ______. Simply stating the date is not actually a legitimate argument. Your argument is literally denying him saying anything at all, saying "Your argument is bad!" and then offering no actual terms against him.[/QUOTE] I think you're replying to the wrong post? I didn't say anything about date in that one, and your post in general doesn't really seem related to what I was talking about in mine at all.

[QUOTE=goluffy;49363114]Oh you are totally right! Why aren't there teachers, people working on making purified water, scientists, mayors, secretaries, people working on the wall to make sure it doesn't break down, radio djs, journalists, detectives and guards? It's crazy that they wouldn't have any people doing those jobs.[/QUOTE] you might be joking but fallout post-apocalypse reality is still the one with the largest concentration of djs of all other post-apocalyptic media around :downs: atomic devastation is no excuse for not having proper intros to your songs

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363106]If that's all it takes it wouldn't have taken until the [B]1850s[/B] for decent steel to be mass produced. It's really not as simple as a backyard handyman and some genuine nutbag getting together and deciding to kick off a new industrial revolution. The logistics involved in getting one factory online and producing anything useful are far beyond most people. Nobody on the East Coast has or needs to have that kind of knowledge at the time we're dealing with in the games because there's enough pre-war surplus materiel to get by and suit their needs. On the West Coast the NCR is building new buildings, laying new roads and railways, and beginning to flirt with the idea of flight - because scarcity hit the West Coast hard before the war. There wasn't much to work with there and what there was was depleted by the 2250s.[/QUOTE] It took that long to make originally because we didn't know how to make it. They already know how to make this shit.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363123]The city guards are using "armor" which is literally just baseball gear. That's a demand right there, demand for better armor. Make better armor, sell it to the city, earn cash. Basic business. [/QUOTE] By your own standards. The guards don't seem to have a problem with their armor, and making "better" armor doesn't instantly create demand for it [QUOTE=elowin;49363133]I think you're replying to the wrong post? I didn't say anything about date in that one, and your post in general doesn't really seem related to what I was talking about in mine at all.[/QUOTE] That was more or less your latest post, but you did make a post saying diamond city is 200 years old or something and why hasn't anything been done etc. It's completely related to yours. Simply stating time has passed isn't actually an argument for why something hasn't happened or why things are as they are. You just kind of assume people want to change, and that they know how to do anything.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49363127]Now the people will never discover the lost art of knocking down a building with explosives, truly an ancient enigma.[/QUOTE] Yeah fucking stupid people why don't they tear down this building and clear out the rubble with their bare hands.

[QUOTE=DChapsfield;49363110]Also, can we give Bethesda some credit for building a much more believable worldspace after learning from their mistakes in 3? Just the fact that there are at least a dozen farms set up across the land acknowledges that cornerstone of sensible worldbuilding: that people need a reliable source of food and water in order to settle in one place. The greater presence of roving caravans, the dependence on hard labor that occupies most people's daily schedules, the logs you read at Libertalia, Red Tourette's rationing depot, & Tower Tom's brewery, the whole Longneck Lukowksi shebang, the Brotherhood needing to contract with (or demand tribute from) local farms, the developments at the Slog & Nordhagen Beach... I think 3 had one mention of hydroponics in Rivet City. I know, I know, the "what do they eat?" argument is tired, but Bethesda still deserves acknowledgement for how they stepped up their world design immensely for this game.[/QUOTE] Oh geez yeah no, Fallout 4 is definitely a huge improvement over Fallout 3, especially when it comes to world believeability. But that was something they fucked up so hard in Fallout 3 that, even with how big of a relative improvement it was to F3, Fallout 4's world is still really damn unbelievable. There's one part they somehow actually did better in Fallout 3, though. The reason for the Super Mutants being around was way, way better than Fallout 4's. Despite Fallout 3's reason for Super Mutants being around being, well, utter garbage.

[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49362872]You're the only one who needs to think in here. You expect the fucking Commonwealth to be like the NCR, when the conditions have not been the same, and no one has stepped up to unite every single settlement, organize and defend them. It's completely fucking plausible. How many years did humanity live like isolated tribes [B]before[/B] they united to become nations, republics, empires? It is not a requirement to make a republic when you can just live peacefully inside your walls, defended and well fed.[/QUOTE] people don't plan on starting civilizations, it comes naturally as more and more people arrive/are born and you need more infrastructure to maintain them. we didn't have running water when we were cavemen because we didn't know how to do it, not because we were entranced with the 2000 B.C. experience

[QUOTE=goluffy;49363114]Oh you are totally right! Why aren't there teachers, people working on making purified water, scientists, mayors, secretaries, people working on the wall to make sure it doesn't break down, radio djs, journalists, detectives and guards? It's crazy that they wouldn't have any people doing those jobs.[/QUOTE] It's funny because every job you just stated is a service job, and my point was that there was a lack of producers. Except the water purifier kid, that's legit.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49363127]The whole point of settlement building is that you're able to salvage and rebuild. Vendors even have building materials like [B]Shipment of Steel - 100[/B] available so they're clearly in circulation.[/quote] They sell scavenged materials that let you scrap together huts in settlement building, like the other scrapped-together huts around the wasteland. [quote]Are you seriously suggesting that this largely barren, desolate wasteland has no room for new buildings?[/quote] You can't just plop down buildings everywhere. You need plots of hard, stable ground that are the correct size and grade for the building you're trying to erect - and in the case of steel factories, access to plenty of water for quenching and cooling. All the suitable coastal and river plots have pre-war buildings sitting on them, which brings us to our next point... [quote]Now the people will never discover the lost art of knocking down a building with explosives, truly an ancient enigma.[/quote] Great! You blew up the building - congratulations, you're a pyrotechnician. Now: what are you going to do with the rubble? [quote]Part of the main quest has you build [sp]a TELEPORTER[/sp] from scrap metal, repairing an assembly line shouldn't be rocket science.[/QUOTE] This part of the main quest was clunky and stupid. The machine you build is better than anything built pre-war. Not everyone in the Fallout universe has access to the magic build menu, though.

People expecting basically villagers with no centralized government or infrastructure to rebuild the industry as we know it.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363141]It took that long to make originally because we didn't know how to make it. They already know how to make this shit.[/QUOTE] Who knows how to make it? Who has access to the equipment and engineering know-how to build the machines to make it? I'll grant you the ironworks but most of that machinery is broken. It could be reverse engineered but it couldn't be repaired, metal fatigue is a bitch.

[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363154]Yeah fucking stupid people why don't they tear down this building and clear out the rubble with their bare hands.[/QUOTE] At what point did I say "bare hands" and not explosives? After 200 years the Commonwealth settlers are still using explosives for their everyday fights, clearly they're not in short supply. If you want to knock a building down you place a few charges at the bottom and the rest falls down. Then you move the rubble, or if you need building materials you salvage it. This isn't a difficult concept.

[QUOTE=Saza;49363144]By your own standards. The guards don't seem to have a problem with their armor, and making "better" armor doesn't instantly create demand for it[/QUOTE] It was already brought up that there are raiders and super mutants. In the face of that, it is only natural that as a guard, you want to protect yourself as well as possible. To, you know, not die. And it would be less expensive as well, because this way you don't have to deal with training new guards quite so often. [QUOTE=Saza;49363144]That was more or less your latest post, but you did make a post saying diamond city is 200 years old or something and why hasn't anything been done etc. It's completely related to yours. Simply stating time has passed isn't actually an argument for why something hasn't happened or why things are as they are. You just kind of assume people want to change, and that they know how to do anything.[/QUOTE] People want their lives to be better. This is a basic fact of reality. This is why people work. And yes, I do assume they know how to do anything. There is little reason they wouldn't, and plenty of reasons why they would. People actually seem pretty educated in general, most people are even literate.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49363190]At what point did I say "bare hands" and not explosives? After 200 years the Commonwealth settlers are still using explosives for their everyday fights, clearly they're not in short supply. If you want to knock a building down you place a few charges at the bottom and the rest falls down. Then you move the rubble, or if you need building materials you salvage it. This isn't a difficult concept.[/QUOTE] Move it where? With what equipment? Salvage it into what? You blew it up. Now you need a recycling process, which still requires you to move the rubble. Which, I'll add, requires a place to move it to, where it can be worked with. You can't just dump it in a field and magic it into useful materials.

You still need to remove the rubble and moving several tons of bricks and concrete with no tools would take forever. Have fun picking up tons and tons of steel beams to shove them out of the way, something people did with cranes before bombs blew them up to bits.