Fallout 4 V24: You're Tied to This Thread Kid, Your Energy - Games

[QUOTE=Cone;49363165]people don't plan on starting civilizations, it comes naturally as more and more people arrive/are born and you need more infrastructure to maintain them. we didn't have running water when we were cavemen because we didn't know how to do it, not because we were entranced with the 2000 B.C. experience[/QUOTE] Exactly? There isn't that many people in the Commonwealth, everyone kinda died 200 years ago. The West Coast wasn't hit nearly as hard, there's more survivors out there; NCR is comparable to a decently sized nation, while the various East Coast regions are unstable wastelands. I think it's worth nothing that, even in the state it's in during Fallout 4, the Commonwealth is doing better than the pre-New Vegas Mojave, and the Capital Wasteland. The Mojave was just a bunch of tribes duking it out in the ruins, while the Capital Wasteland is scattered refugees, raiders, and nomads, wandering from place to place in search of shelter, and either depositing in one of the very few permanent settlements, or escaping to one of the more stable nearby regions (like the Commonwealth, for instance). Even without the Minuteman keeping the peace, the Commonwealth has one very large, very safe community that is doing extremely well for itself; one smaller community that's also hanging on pretty well, a Vault which obviously hasn't expanded because they're already in a Vault goddamnit, and [I]loads and loads of farms. Permanent ones that are doing just fine and dandy.[/I] There has been progress, enough to support the Commonwealth's smaller population.

All of this can be done, and it was done in the West, but in the East, people who try to do it get shot to death or otherwise interrupted (usually to death). There's not a lot of space and not a lot of demand [I]yet[/I] because there's plenty of pre-war surplus to get by with. I would say in 50 or so years we could expect people on the East Coast to start playing with manufacturing again - if the NCR doesn't make it over there and introduce it to them before that.

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49363190]At what point did I say "bare hands" and not explosives? After 200 years the Commonwealth settlers are still using explosives for their everyday fights, clearly they're not in short supply. If you want to knock a building down you place a few charges at the bottom and the rest falls down. Then you move the rubble, or if you need building materials you salvage it. This isn't a difficult concept.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363154]Yeah fucking stupid people why don't they tear down this building and [B]clear out the rubble with their bare hands.[/B][/QUOTE] It isn't a difficult concept for us, you mean. You're completely ignoring the logistics of the matter.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363185]Who knows how to make it?[/QUOTE] Anyone with a book. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363185]Who has access to the equipment and engineering know-how to build the machines to make it?[/QUOTE] Anyone who goes out and finds some machines and/or makes some himself from scavenged spare parts, after reading aforementioned book. [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363185]I'll grant you the ironworks but most of that machinery is broken. It could be reverse engineered but it couldn't be repaired, metal fatigue is a bitch.[/QUOTE] Rebuilt, then. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363201]Move it where? With what equipment? Salvage it into what? You blew it up. Now you need a recycling process, which still requires you to move the rubble. Which, I'll add, requires a place to move it to, where it can be worked with. You can't just dump it in a field and magic it into useful materials.[/QUOTE] Recycling process? No that's probably gonna be a bit further down the line than just rebuilding some factories, mate. One step at a time, folks! Civilization didn't pop up all at once. Just move it out of the way. It's not hard. Well, I mean, it is hard work to move it, but the process is pretty simple.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363233]Anyone with a book. Anyone who goes out and finds some machines and/or makes some himself from scavenged spare parts, after reading aforementioned book. Rebuilt, then.[/QUOTE] Reading a book isn't the same as an education and training. Also, where are they getting resources to rebuild these things, exactly? Efficient recycling isn't an easy thing to do, and modern day, not yet ravaged by the Resource Wars America is getting much of its resources from other countries; not really an option for the average wastelander.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363233]Anyone with a book.[/quote] In Fallout most of that knowledge would be found on computers, not books. We find that computers storing useful knowledge are frequently trashed by luddites or mistakenly wiped out by someone who isn't familiar with the system or straight up nuked. [quote]Anyone who goes out and finds some machines and/or makes some himself from scavenged spare parts, after reading aforementioned book.[/quote] The industrial machines in Fallout are frequently nuclear powered. It'd take a nuclear physicist working in tandem with an industrial engineer to restore most of them to working order. Some have survived, but these were maintained from the get-go, not found in a ditch or junkyard. I'll add that things end up in junkyards for a reason and anything stored outside can be assumed to be ruined insofar as restoring it to working the way it was intended goes. [quote]Rebuilt, then.[/QUOTE] Where? And what would it be producing that people can't scavenge for themselves instead of having to pay for?

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363171]They sell scavenged materials that let you scrap together huts in settlement building, like the other scrapped-together huts around the wasteland. You can't just plop down buildings everywhere. You need plots of hard, stable ground that are the correct size and grade for the building you're trying to erect - and in the case of steel factories, access to plenty of water for quenching and cooling. All the suitable coastal and river plots have pre-war buildings sitting on them, which brings us to our next point... Great! You blew up the building - congratulations, you're a pyrotechnician. Now: what are you going to do with the rubble? This part of the main quest was clunky and stupid. The machine you build is better than anything built pre-war. Not everyone in the Fallout universe has access to the magic build menu, though.[/QUOTE] The wasteland has a ton of empty land though. It wouldn't be so hard to say "here's a good spot", move a salvaged/repaired assembly line there build some walls around it. Rubble can be moved if you've got a bit of time and manpower (it's been [I]200 years[/I]) and like you say, scavenged wreckage can be used/sold. The [sp]teleporter[/sp] is built on Virgil's specs so all you need is someone that understands them and someone who can build with scrap metal, which is precisely what happens in the story. Besides, nobody needs to build new factories when there are plenty of old ones around. The Fallout world functions because it's full of handymen that understand how to repair pre-war tech. Repairing a few factory lines shouldn't be difficult.

I managed to find an unfinished mod for the AK in fallout 4, but no textures on it yet. [url]http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2455/?tab=2[/url]

[QUOTE=Bread_Baron;49363273]The wasteland has a ton of empty land though. It wouldn't be so hard to say "here's a good spot", move a salvaged/repaired assembly line there build some walls around it. Rubble can be moved if you've got a bit of time and manpower (it's been [I]200 years[/I]) and like you say, scavenged wreckage can be used/sold. The [sp]teleporter[/sp] is built on Virgil's specs so all you need is someone that understands them and someone who can build with scrap metal, which is precisely what happens in the story. Besides, nobody needs to build new factories when there are plenty of old ones around. The Fallout world functions because it's full of handymen that understand how to repair pre-war tech. Repairing a few factory lines shouldn't be difficult.[/QUOTE] The old factories can't just be fixed up. Metal fatigue is a bitch. You're looking at total replacement of any moving parts. Most of them are computer operated, so you need a computer technician as well, with enough new computer parts to replace the old computer parts. And for all this, there's still not enough of a demand yet on the east coast to justify the effort. I'll add that factories in Pittsburgh are producing and presumably exporting stuff, which must be enough to meet the needs of people who need those exports. Most people are fine with scavenging still.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363270]In Fallout most of that knowledge would be found on computers, not books. We find that computers storing useful knowledge are frequently trashed by luddites or mistakenly wiped out by someone who isn't familiar with the system or straight up nuked.[/QUOTE] Uhh... No. No it would not. Fuck, even in today's day and age you can learn fucking anything if you get the right books, and the Fallout universe is way, WAY less computer dependant than we are. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363306]The old factories can't just be fixed up. Metal fatigue is a bitch. You're looking at total replacement of any moving parts. Most of them are computer operated, so you need a computer technician as well, with enough new computer parts to replace the old computer parts. And for all this, there's still not enough of a demand yet on the east coast to justify the effort. I'll add that factories in Pittsburgh are producing and presumably exporting stuff, which must be enough to meet the needs of people who need those exports. Most people are fine with scavenging still.[/QUOTE] Uhh, I'm not an engineer, but a quick dip into wikipedia and it doesn't really seem like metal fatigue is something that'd happen from machines just standing around not doing anything? It's strain from them, well, doing things.

[QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363225]It isn't a difficult concept for us, you mean. You're completely ignoring the logistics of the matter.[/QUOTE] The logistics of the matter are that people still have tools and a need to rebuild. Myrna and other merchants process and store huge shipments of ceramic and steel that's been salvaged, what makes concrete more difficult? That it's heavier? Yes, it's a time-consuming process but it doesn't take 200 years. People have a need for building materials, you'd think they'd eventually look at the city of loose bricks around them.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363324]Uhh... No. No it would not. Fuck, even in today's day and age you can learn fucking anything if you get the right books, and the Fallout universe is way, WAY less computer dependant than we are.[/QUOTE] We're computer dependent in a different way than Fallout is, but I'd argue that they depend [I]more[/I] on computerization in many ways. Even now most of the actual books you'd look at to learn how to do things date to the 70s and before. New technologies are documented digitally.

[vid]https://my.mixtape.moe/ljqxki.webm[/vid] execution day baby

It's pretty clear you like, what, three or so people I've been arguing with these last few pages, aren't actually listening to any arguments I make anyway, this was a pretty big waste of time so I'm going to skedaddle.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363404]It's pretty clear you like, what, three or so people I've been arguing with these last few pages, aren't actually listening to any arguments I make anyway, this was a pretty big waste of time so I'm going to skedaddle.[/QUOTE] Like this boils down to you thinking society should be totally rebuilt already with new infrastructure and factories and everyone should've just moved on from the nuclear war that flattened the world and refusing to understand that that's not possible within just a couple centuries. All the old broken shit has to go away, everyone has to get together and agree that it needs to be done, and someone has to be able to plan and create new things. It'll take a second industrial revolution and the conditions just aren't right for that.

You really have to be open to accepting the view point of other people. That is how you can have a healthly discussion. People were just trying to tell you their view on the subject and you just wouldn't accept it.

[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;49362409]I'm pretty sure they're just wild dogs. A mongrel is just a dog with no distinctive or unknown breed.[/QUOTE] I know what mongrel means, but to say that when I keep finding them with normal dog collars on points toward them being the ghoul equivalent of dogs.

Hopefully a quick question. I'm on my second playthrough and I've noticed this time round that the water is now murky and the view distance is severely limited when I dive in. During my first playthrough (I played to about level 43) the water was completely clear the entire game. It kinda made underwater exploring fun. Was there something in the options menu that might have reset on my second time round? Is it possible to remove the murkyness underwater?

[QUOTE=elowin;49363404]It's pretty clear you like, what, three or so people I've been arguing with these last few pages, aren't actually listening to any arguments I make anyway, this was a pretty big waste of time so I'm going to skedaddle.[/QUOTE] "People don't take everything I say as the absolute truth so they're not listening." No yeah, we heard you. And we're telling you you're looking at it in an incredibly simplistic way.

[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;49363447]You really have to be open to accepting the view point of other people. That is how you can have a healthly discussion. People were just trying to tell you their view on the subject and you just wouldn't accept it.[/QUOTE] Goes both ways, I'd say? [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363462]"People don't take everything I say as the absolute truth so they're not listening." No yeah, we heard you. And we're telling you you're looking at it in an incredibly simplistic way.[/QUOTE] ok you were listening, you're just dumb that's fine if you or anyone else wants to continue that dumb argument, bring it to PMs please.

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSaAG1_6EjU&feature=youtu.be[/media] I swear to god I don't mean to keep making sequels of my own videos

Okay what's the problem? I can try to give you a compromise. I make no guarantees. So, what, 200 years is considered a too long time, or a too short time to rebuild society, to get industrial machines rolling full-tint once again? After a total nuclear annihilation? I don't know, it's America we're talking about, where the second government goes down, people start consuming each other alive. So 200 years is kinda optimistic to get the infrastructure fixed up, right? Or.. maybe if a lot of people (Americans) were really determined to do that, then yeah? Mayb.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363463]Goes both ways, I'd say? [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] ok you were listening, you're just dumb that's fine[/QUOTE] Hahahahah, seriously? I'm the dumb one? I'm telling you that you need to look at things in a less simplistic manner, and you tell me I'm dumb? How does that saying go? "Correct the wise, and you'll make him wiser. Correct the fool, and you'll make him your enemy."

[QUOTE=Hatley;49363499][media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mSaAG1_6EjU&feature=youtu.be[/media] I swear to god I don't mean to keep making sequels of my own videos[/QUOTE] Maybe it's not a bug, maybe it's a feature! Maybe the Institute is [sp]using their teleportation technology to fuck with you![/sp]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;49363423]Like this boils down to you thinking society should be totally rebuilt already with new infrastructure and factories and everyone should've just moved on from the nuclear war that flattened the world and refusing to understand that that's not possible within just a couple centuries. All the old broken shit has to go away, everyone has to get together and agree that it needs to be done, and someone has to be able to plan and create new things. It'll take a second industrial revolution and the conditions just aren't right for that.[/QUOTE] The Gun Runners did precisely that though, and they've got multiple bases of operations where they build brand new weapons and ammo. They're just a band of independent workers that figured out how to make stuff again, there's no need for a huge infrastructure behind that. Bethesda just has a thing for making it look like the bombs dropped recently and nobody's had much time to rebuild.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49363500]I'd love to if I knew what this is about :v:[/QUOTE] Civilization not rebuilding over the last 200 years whatsoever, to the point that there's literally no production of anything at all beyond food and water in Fallout 4, and only the simplest of either of those. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363507]Hahahahah, seriously? I'm the dumb one? I'm telling you that you need to look at things in a less simplistic manner, and you tell me I'm dumb? How does that saying go? "Correct the wise, and you'll make him wiser. Correct the fool, and you'll make him your enemy."[/QUOTE] Right back at you.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49363522]Is this about 200 years and the Commonwealth still is a mess like it looks 20 years after the Great War? Because yeah, that's stupid. Even the Capital Wasteland had its reasons why it was underdeveloped, but the Commonwealth certainly has none.[/QUOTE] I've been in this argument so long and I really want out, so I'm just gonna tell you to read the last pages. It was explained in detail why things are the way they are.

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49363522]Is this about 200 years and the Commonwealth still is a mess like it looks 60 or so years after the Great War? Because yeah, that's stupid. Even the Capital Wasteland had its reasons why it was underdeveloped, but the Commonwealth certainly has none.[/QUOTE] Yep, that's what it's about. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Chilean_Wolf;49363541]I've been in this argument so long and I really want out, so I'm just gonna tell you to read the last pages. It was explained in detail why things are the way they are.[/QUOTE] Except it really wasn't. Just about every reason was either not a reason at all, or fairly minor. Except the existance of infinite raiders and supermutants, but that in and of itself is stupid.

[QUOTE=elowin;49363543]Yep, that's what it's about. [editline]21st December 2015[/editline] Except it really wasn't. Just about every reason was either not a reason at all, or fairly minor. Except the existance of infinite raiders and supermutants, but that in and of itself is stupid.[/QUOTE] You're the one who doesn't listen to any fucking argument. Like are you for fucking real right now? You say no one listens to you but that's just you projecting. You haven't listened to a single thing people have said since this thing started. What about the comparison between the NCR and the Minutemen, how both were created at about the same time but one succeeded and the other fell apart? Leading to stability in the West, and instability in the East? What about the East Coast getting hit harder than the West Coast? What about the constant source of radiation that is the Glowing Sea? It has been explained in detail time, after time, how the fuck are you not doing this on purpose?!

[QUOTE=TheRealRudy;49363574]But it's really just stupid and you can blame it to bad writing. Fallout 4 would make sense if it took place around Fallout 1 or something. Now it just looks like everyone but the Institute sat on their ass for the last couple of 200 years, I mean really, the "Jewel of the Commonwealth" is just some houses strapped into a baseball stadium with some farming going on? Congrats people, you accomplished something that can be done within 10 years.[/QUOTE] I'm not repeating myself for a third time so read my posts and stop regurgitating this dumb shit.