Black Mesa Source V5 - "They're still working on Xen?" - Games

[QUOTE=Juniez;45595746]there's a reason why there's an entire profession dedicated to lighting in video games and why a lot of environment artists are learned in composition[/QUOTE]There's even an entire profession dedicated to lighting in real life; Lighting Technician.

Ah, jeez, I wasn't trying to say lighting is simple, that was just my opinion on the screenshot. And I didn't mean well-lit as in "bright," but as in... lit well, the lighting is fine.

My point was briefly level design because you said "everything" and I misunderstood. Once you clarified, I agreed and thought we were gonna move on. I only really expected anyone to pay attention to the "Gearbox was doing their own thing" bit after that. My apologies.

[QUOTE=Juniez;45592143]that area is awfully lit for any kind of competitive play and it looks like they just spammed colour lights for the sake of contrast but in the end it just looks disorienting and disjointed from the original colour palette i'd rather have the Booooriiiiing one[/QUOTE] Seriously this is why most mappers hate ~competitive gamers~. For gods sake what the hell is wrong with that screenshot? Its absolutely fine, and definitely not over the top. You add a bit of contrast they say "BUT ITS TOO DARK/BRIGHT I CANT SEE ANYONE". You add some details and they go "TOO MUCH CLUTTER AHH I CANT TELL A BUSH APART FROM AN ENEMY PLAYER TERRIBLE MAP." I know too much of anything is not okay. But the line can simply not be drawn this close to a normal interesting scene.

[QUOTE=Grenade Man;45601761]Seriously this is why most mappers hate ~competitive gamers~. For gods sake what the hell is wrong with that screenshot? Its absolutely fine, and definitely not over the top. You add a bit of contrast they say "BUT ITS TOO DARK/BRIGHT I CANT SEE ANYONE". You add some details and they go "TOO MUCH CLUTTER AHH I CANT TELL A BUSH APART FROM AN ENEMY PLAYER TERRIBLE MAP." I know too much of anything is not okay. But the line can simply not be drawn this close to a normal interesting scene.[/QUOTE] Competitive gamers aren't artists.

[QUOTE=Grenade Man;45601761]Seriously this is why most mappers hate ~competitive gamers~. For gods sake what the hell is wrong with that screenshot? Its absolutely fine, and definitely not over the top. You add a bit of contrast they say "BUT ITS TOO DARK/BRIGHT I CANT SEE ANYONE". You add some details and they go "TOO MUCH CLUTTER AHH I CANT TELL A BUSH APART FROM AN ENEMY PLAYER TERRIBLE MAP." I know too much of anything is not okay. But the line can simply not be drawn this close to a normal interesting scene.[/QUOTE] it's a question of noise, not contrast. The lighting should be accentuating and presenting the scene, not hamfistedly shoving itself into the composition [img]http://puu.sh/aG7Jk/c8561ca84a.jpg[/img] excellent use of high contrast lighting, full utilization of levels, broad sweeping colors that actually shade and light the level instead of trying to be an active part of its forms [img]http://puu.sh/aG852/3ba5d8226b.jpg[/img] point lights that try to become shapes on its own serving as overlaid additive noise to an already busy scene (and also not realistic. warehouses are well lit. look at the original. even if this particular warehouse had a surplus of cheap-but-absurdedly strong orange lamps, the orange lighting is more than strong enough to bounce onto the ceiling again, softening up the lighting), sickening orange-grey contrast for the wow, cinematic!!! while using an sort-of-different (but not different enough to have any kind of artistic or functional meaning) color for the left side because idk lol, and on top of that, it's not even contrasted: most of the tone level is on the bottom. in a multiplayer map. i hope they have flashlights

You can complicate the matter indefinitely but in the end to a player who just wants to have fun playing a game it won't make a difference. (and that's hopefully still the audience we are aiming to entertain)

well you asked for 'gods sake what the hell is wrong with that screenshot?' and so i have offered what might possibly be wrong with that screenshot

[QUOTE=Juniez;45602377] in a multiplayer map. i hope they have flashlights[/QUOTE] See that's the theory. But would anyone turn their flashlight on in the scene above? Not really. In practice this is a good game environment. I'm not saying there isn't room to improve and all the criticism you posted stands without a doubt but bashing it and saying the goldsource shot looks better is going way too far.

[QUOTE=Juniez;45602377]pretentious shit[/QUOTE] Who the actual hell cares what a static game environment looks like, especially considering that particular area is one a player is going to just blaze right on by without caring about your precious color balance? You're just looking for excuses to be a blowhard.

[QUOTE=ElusiveBadger;45606496]Who the actual hell cares what a static game environment looks like, especially considering that particular area is one a player is going to just blaze right on by without caring about your precious color balance? You're just looking for excuses to be a blowhard.[/QUOTE] it's a multiplayer map so no one would be just blazing through it, it's is a problem (however minor) that can be fixed, and if he didn't want an answer he shouldn't have asked there's no overcomplication or blowharding going on here, it's a common revision process by any significant environment artist and if he's a decent mapper then he shouldn't be understating the work that usually goes into these things

Half-Life Deathmatch has always had a fundamentally different playstyle to competitive games like CS:GO or whatever the cool kids are playing these days. It's deathmatch, very fast-paced. If we assume Black mesa Deathmatch will follow suit, this lighting style probably won't be an issue. Some very popular HLDM maps have highly contrasting or "noisy" lighting setups. Critiquing this, in my opinion, sorta feels like complaining that the shotgun isn't good for taking out vorts at long range.

[QUOTE=Mech Bgum;45606672]Minecraft has sub hl1 graphics and it's super popular, proving that players may not care about how environment looks like. Does it mean that level design should be freed of any artistic criticism? (btw we're talking here about a project that's based entirely around graphical enhancements)[/QUOTE] When said criticisms are the most nitpicky details that someone who isn't into things like lighting design (or isn't pretentious) wouldn't notice, yes.

[QUOTE=ElusiveBadger;45606714]When said criticisms are the most nitpicky details that someone who isn't into things like lighting design (or isn't pretentious) wouldn't notice, yes.[/QUOTE] nobody says "hey this lighting is cluttering my eyeballs and its contrast is unmerited" in game but it negatively affects the fluidity of gameplay to the point where someone might say "fuck me that guy was camping the corner again" because there's no way someone would effectively silhouette a player standing still in one of those dark diffused areas when those overblown lights are demanding all of your attention + there is literally 0 downsides to, you know, fixing it - please stop dismissing it as pretentious because you don't know how much consideration goes into environment art. nitpicking is making someone start a highpoly over because the number of serrations on a pistol side is off by two. nitpicking is pointing out that a a gap in the hull of a vehicle is off by a few millimeters. this isn't nitpicking.

[QUOTE=Juniez;45606856]please stop dismissing it as pretentious because you don't know how much consideration goes into environment art.[/QUOTE] Okay, maybe not pretentious, but definitely condescending. Almost all the notably dark areas are on the ceiling, way up where players wouldn't be. If you consider the platforms, that seems like it could be an issue for players looking up, but each platform also has a light that would easily effective silhouette them. The map's not even done, chances are these lighting "issues" have probably been addressed, but there's really nothing wrong with them as it is, seems like you're just looking too hard at it.

the second 'analysis' is very harsh condescending and I apologize. No harm meant to the developers and black mesa (sans [I]some [/I]minor flaws with lighting) is a proper upgrade through-and-through but: [QUOTE=Grenade Man;45601761]Seriously this is why most mappers hate ~competitive gamers~. For gods sake what the hell is wrong with that screenshot? Its absolutely fine, and definitely not over the top. You add a bit of contrast they say "BUT ITS TOO DARK/BRIGHT I CANT SEE ANYONE". You add some details and they go "TOO MUCH CLUTTER AHH I CANT TELL A BUSH APART FROM AN ENEMY PLAYER TERRIBLE MAP." I know too much of anything is not okay. But the line can simply not be drawn this close to a normal interesting scene.[/QUOTE] to me this post reeks of 'i'm a mapper so i know more than you do' and represents a deplorable attitude towards content creation. You were perfectly willing to create an entire product for free, there should be nothing stopping you from going the extra inch, taking criticism from your audience, and taking the time to fix it. And if you disagree (nothing wrong with diagreeing, really) - at least disagree with the actual criticism, don't blanket and dismiss the entire premise like "ha those fucking competitive gamers are too picky!". I'm not even a competitive gamer and if we're going to pull rank on each other, I get paid to make video game art, so [img]http://i.somethingawful.com/forumsystem/emoticons/emot-colbert.gif[/img]

Woah sorry my opinion as someone who has fun in their spare time making maps is obviously inferior to your opinion, because you get paid for what you do. I never said I know more than you do. I never said criticism shouldn't be taken (constructively). I never said you weren't correct in the criticism you gave. What you first posted that made me respond wasn't criticism. You were only talking trash about a level that's perfectly fine, taking details and blowing them up just so you could insult the hard work that went into the level and mod itself. My work might be inferior to yours, It almost certainly is. But what the Black Mesa team did and what they still are doing is the very peak of modding and game design in general (in its own category). I'm not saying you cant give cc. But I am saying you cant act like a elitist pro on a completely unrelated forum by shitting on work that is as a whole way superior to yours.

Hello guys, I'm redoing some textures, simple things, without losing the original BM style too, increasing the resolution and redoing typography to better definition. [IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/sexf61.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/1191jzl.jpg[/IMG]

You've enlarged the original textures, slapped a new overlay ontop and not forgetting to mention your typography for better definition lacks wear and is just a solid colour.

I'm not a master in skinning, but at least it's better than the original and worth a try. It's amazing that some people here try to discourage a lot of people.

I will not even say anything, because I do not wanna fight no confusion, I am peaceful. But I will continue doing my retextures, however simple they may be, and try to go slowly improving, after all, this is just a hobby if you do not like, okay, you got that right. But maybe there are some who like. Peace in the heart friends.

you're welcome to try but I don't think you're going to get very far in revamping if you don't have the original AO / normal bakes

I just do small retextures, not big deal, the only things I do now in BMS (this time) is a little better HEV charger, this box and a computer server retex(incomplete). But i have a ridiculous ties pack and opposing force style hecus in gamebanana too.

You're heading in the right direction. I wouldn't just put a metal overlay over it and call it enhanced, though. If you're gonna bump up the resolution, definitely do some more tweaks, possibly even rebuild the texture from the ground up to make use of it, otherwise you're just wasting filesize. Notice how the edges of the paint chipping is really blurry? With that extra resolution you could make that more crisp!

[QUOTE=Crypt19;45610563]You're heading in the right direction. I wouldn't just put a metal overlay over it and call it enhanced, though. If you're gonna bump up the resolution, definitely do some more tweaks, possibly even rebuild the texture from the ground up to make use of it, otherwise you're just wasting filesize. Notice how the edges of the paint chipping is really blurry? With that extra resolution you could make that more crisp![/QUOTE] Good idea Crypt, I will try that. Now that's a good constructive criticism without arrogance or anything, you seem like a nice guy. Thanks for the tip.

all these people trying to deflect criticism are really reminiscent of autists on the deviantart appreciation station

Hardly. The criticism on the texture isn't being deflected except by the creator, who immediately rescinded and politely made note of it. I'm sure most if not all developers can understand being somewhat offended by harsh crit, esp. when starting out, so I totally get him. The criticism on Stalkyard was contested on account of the crit assuming the map should be lit for "competitive play" and that it wasn't lit for it, whereas others felt it was, or is not intended to be lit in a such a manner. There's a difference between deflecting and disagreeing. [QUOTE=Mech Bgum;45619608]you'll look at this texture 5 years later and gonna have a good laugh [URL="http://hl2.gamebanana.com/skins/60083"]like I did[/URL].[/QUOTE] What he said! I found the source files for some of my maps from a few years ago. Ewww.

[QUOTE=Crypt19;45623778]Hardly. The criticism on the texture isn't being deflected except by the creator, who immediately rescinded and politely made note of it. I'm sure most if not all developers can understand being somewhat offended by harsh crit, esp. when starting out, so I totally get him. The criticism on Stalkyard was contested on account of the crit assuming the map should be lit for "competitive play" and that it wasn't lit for it, whereas others felt it was, or is not intended to be lit in a such a manner. There's a difference between deflecting and disagreeing. What he said! I found the source files for some of my maps from a few years ago. Ewww.[/QUOTE] I think he was talking about the map lighting thing. [editline]8th August 2014[/editline] I mean like: [QUOTE=Grenade Man;45607534] Woah sorry my opinion as someone who has fun in their spare time making maps is obviously inferior to your opinion, because you get paid for what you do. I never said I know more than you do. I never said criticism shouldn't be taken (constructively). I never said you weren't correct in the criticism you gave. What you first posted that made me respond wasn't criticism. You were only talking trash about a level that's perfectly fine, taking details and blowing them up just so you could insult the hard work that went into the level and mod itself. My work might be inferior to yours, It almost certainly is. But what the Black Mesa team did and what they still are doing is the very peak of modding and game design in general (in its own category). I'm not saying you cant give cc. But I am saying you cant act like a elitist pro on a completely unrelated forum by shitting on work that is as a whole way superior to yours.[/QUOTE] Jesus fuck can we implement a sour grapes rating?

Well, I tried to do some more retextures, which are not only overlays, I used some more features, and try to recreate with some fidelity to the original. Please if you gonna do criticisms, first of all be polite and without arrogance, and there I will accept them willingly (I know some are not good, or are exaggerated, but it is only WIP). Ok, here we go: [IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/9lfzb5.jpg[/IMG] Nothing really new here, only higher resolution, typography redone (same font used), a new screen and a new gauge. [IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/ljdrp.jpg[/IMG] I tried to do the best I could, using the texture resources from the game itself, and believe me, the resolution is 2048 x 2048. I'm a little afraid to use 4096 x 4096 before making further improvements and try to apply them in a higher resolution. NOTE: The texture is not yet complete. [IMG]http://i58.tinypic.com/dm4710.jpg[/IMG] I do not know ... was exaggerated? The idea is good? [IMG]http://i59.tinypic.com/xptyzd.jpg[/IMG] Yes, Yes, I used overlay here, but I make new buttons, the same style of the original ones, new gauges and screen too. I still want to improve the detail of the tapes. Any Ideas or texture resources to do that?

[QUOTE=Juniez;45578474]the 'pack' will release with a new set of arms based on (but not a 100% replicated. because those triangle knuckles are weird) the original LD mark iv[/QUOTE] So you're gonna release them only on new arms and animations? Since you already have them working on llopn's animations it would be cool if you released those aswell, so you could choose which hands and anims you prefer. The models look beautiful btw, nice work.