Virtual Reality General V3 - You've got the Touch - Games

[url=https://medium.com/@Fr0z3n/the-costs-of-making-a-vr-game-6814a012303e#.i5rcuwc64]Another Vive developer speaks numbers about the struggle to make games without subsidizing:[/url] [quote][i]The Costs of Making a VR Game or how we’re down $36,000+ after making an Vive launch title[/i] We took a risk. Actually, every VR developer is taking a risk. For us, it didn’t pay off financially and for others, I’m sure it hasn’t either yet. From the viewpoint of a business person, VR developers are stupid, idiotic and reckless. And for VR, thats fucking beautiful. You 100% need to be all those if you want to succeed in VR. If people weren’t being reckless and if it wasn’t for companies like Oculus or Intel shoving money at developers to soften the financial blows, VR would not last long at all. Period. End of story. The next time you see a developer announce that they’re an Oculus exclusive, or has received money from a company so that they can promote their product in their game, or whatever may happen next, keep this in mind: [I]They’re not trying to hurt the consumer, they’re enabling themselves and more importantly, VR.[/I][/quote]

Rec Room Paintball got a new map yesterday, check it out. Also a new weapon (rifle) which results in tons of snipers which are fun to surprise from behind.

Even though The Climb was fun with a controller, the Touch adds a whole other level. Surprisingly intuitive, though requires pretty good VR legs because you're moving your camera a LOT.

[QUOTE=bitches;51508553][URL="https://medium.com/@Fr0z3n/the-costs-of-making-a-vr-game-6814a012303e#.i5rcuwc64"]Another Vive developer speaks numbers about the struggle to make games without subsidizing:[/URL][/QUOTE] Doesn't look like The Climb was too [URL="http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/12/report-crytek-employess-unpaid-for-months-black-sea-studio-up-for-sale/"]profitable either[/URL], even with Oculus' help. Pushing a near bankrupt AAA company to develop for VR was probably not the best idea. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=bitches;51508553][URL="https://medium.com/@Fr0z3n/the-costs-of-making-a-vr-game-6814a012303e#.i5rcuwc64"]Another Vive developer speaks numbers about the struggle to make games without subsidizing:[/URL][/QUOTE] Honestly, Light Repair Team #4 is just not a very good game. It's ~45 minutes long and an incredibly simple puzzle game. Blaming VR as a medium is a poor excuse for bad production planning, it's not much of a shocker it sold very poorly. Good and successful VR games come down to being interesting and fun ideas. For example, Audioshield has sold ~90,000 copies and made 1.7 million after Valve's cut; that was only made by one person over a couple months.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51508856]Doesn't look like The Climb was too [URL="http://letsplayvideogames.com/2016/12/report-crytek-employess-unpaid-for-months-black-sea-studio-up-for-sale/"]profitable either[/URL], even with Oculus' help. Pushing a near bankrupt AAA company to develop for VR was probably not the best idea.[/quote] that's an article about the company as a whole lacking money, not any specific team such as whatever group developed for The Climb, one of the launch titles that was 100% funded by Oculus it is not indicative or relevant to VR game funding, except that it proves they wouldn't have made a VR game at all without Oculus funding [quote]Honestly, Light Repair Team #4 is just not a very good game. It's ~45 minutes long and an incredibly simple puzzle game. Blaming VR as a medium is a poor excuse for bad production planning, it's not much of a shocker it sold very poorly. Good and successful VR games come down to being interesting and fun ideas. For example, Audioshield has sold ~90,000 copies and made 1.7 million after Valve's cut; that was only made by one person over a couple months.[/QUOTE] not every game can be the indie hit of the week, and that was an article about start-up costs to develop a game with a real full-time team rather than a one-man-indie-band you need either a subsidizer or a successful kickstarter to make anything close to "AAA" games

I've literally never heard of Light Repair Team #4. Most developers working on VR games are new indie developers [B]who are going to struggle financially on any game they make.[/B]

[QUOTE=Stents*;51508950]I've literally never heard of Light Repair Team #4. Most developers working on VR games are new indie developers [B]who are going to struggle financially on any game they make.[/B][/QUOTE] most developers for VR struggling to afford development is not a good thing

[QUOTE=bitches;51508949]not every game can be the indie hit of the week, and that was an article about start-up costs to develop a game with a real full-time team rather than a one-man-indie-band you need either a subsidizer or a successful kickstarter to make anything close to "AAA" games[/QUOTE] So you're saying we need subsidies to make sure every game is financially successful? Very few indie games are actually successful. Go look look at the indie new releases on steam and see how many indie games are released in a single day.Most of those games will be lucky to get more than 100 reviews on steam. Making an indie game is almost always going to be a huge risk. To blame this on VR or lack of subsidies is just outright wrong.

[QUOTE=Stents*;51508983]So you're saying we need subsidies to make sure every game is financially successful? Very few indie games are actually successful. Go look look at the indie new releases on steam and see how many indie games are released in a single day.Most of those games will be lucky to get more than 100 reviews on steam. Making an indie game is almost always going to be a huge risk. To blame this on VR or lack of subsidies is just outright wrong.[/QUOTE] I'm not blaming it on VR, but the reality is that the VR market is comparatively very small. Evidently, VR gamers having a thirst for games isn't enough to offset the small market size. A larger budget game faces even greater financial risk, to the point that most high-end development teams won't touch VR yet without financial assurance. Early access and kickstarters are great alternatives, but the point is that exclusive titles are not Hitler to an industry that lacks funds to safely make the games required to make VR mainstream.

[QUOTE=bitches;51501451]I'm sorry it came across that way. I'm making the argument that two cameras [I]on stands on a desk[/I] plus a single tripod/wall-mount is simpler for demoing than two tripod/wall-mount setups and zero desk cameras, or at least that they're equivalent in this regard. Placing cameras on a desk takes no time at all. I'm not even saying that it's hard to set up a Vive. I didn't start the argument, I'm just responding to repeated claims that it's somehow harder to set up Rift tracking.[/QUOTE] Placing two cameras on tripods doesn't take long all. It takes me about 120 seconds to set up my vive from start to finish and I have to: take the vive out of the box and plug it in, stack boxes, put the lighthouses on them and run room setup. If I had my lighthouses on tripods all I'd have to do is place them which would probably cut 60 seconds off my setup time I'm not sure what is shorter about setting up an additional camera? There's no argument here

[QUOTE=Kylel999;51508993]Placing two cameras on tripods doesn't take long all. It takes me about 120 seconds to set up my vive from start to finish and I have to: take the vive out of the box and plug it in, stack boxes, put the lighthouses on them and run room setup. If I had my lighthouses on tripods all I'd have to do is place them which would probably cut 60 seconds off my setup time Its not hard, either, it's actually effortless[/QUOTE] I agree with you. I was making the point that the Rift is just as easy to set up for on-the-go demos. I said as much in the post you quoted.

[QUOTE=bitches;51508949] that was an article about start-up costs to develop a game with a real full-time team rather than a one-man-indie-band[/QUOTE] How do you figure that? The guy made the game himself (Charging a ridiculous [B]40$/hr[/B], coming to a total of 22k after 3.5 months). He also hired a guy to do art for 5 hours charging a small amount of $200 and another ridiculous figure of $3000 for two song tracks at 14% of the cost of him making the game itself. That is not a full team and it's very much poor management.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51509005]How do you figure that? The guy made the game himself (Charging a ridiculous [B]40$/hr[/B], coming to a total of 22k after 3.5 months). He also hired a guy to do art for 5 hours charging a small amount of $200 and another ridiculous figure of $3000 for two song tracks at 14% of the cost of him making the game itself. That is not a full team and it's very much poor management.[/QUOTE] Working full time is a huge investment. It means breaking away from any other job you were previously holding onto, and risking extreme capital in the doing as you pay your bills while toiling away at your game. It isn't comparable to someone toying around over the weekend for an accidental minecraft-like smash hit.

[QUOTE=bitches;51509013]Working full time is a huge investment. It means breaking away from any other job you were previously holding onto, and risking extreme capital in the doing as you pay your bills while toiling away at your game. It isn't comparable to someone toying around over the weekend for an accidental minecraft-like smash hit.[/QUOTE] Yes, leaving your job is a huge investment but expecting to make $40/hr back from a single man indie game is not realistic. Spending $3000 on two music tracks is not a good management of funds either.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51509023]Yes, leaving your job is a huge investment but expecting to make $40/hr back from a single man indie game is not realistic. Spending $3000 on two music tracks is not a good management of funds either.[/QUOTE] I don't think $3,000 in expensive music is to blame for $36,000 in losses. That's not even a lot of money for someone who may have spent up to a month working with him to refine the music to meet whatever their vision was. Call it a shit game if you want, but that isn't the point. The point is that making good games is an expensive process and VR is not going to appeal to the masses without bigger and better games with even greater financial risks. Those risks have to be mitigated by more than good will and a dream.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51509005](Charging a ridiculous [B]40$/hr[/B], coming to a total of 22k after 3.5 months).[/QUOTE] Don't know if you're just ignorant of what trained professionals make here but that equates to what, $83,000 a year? Programming is an extremely skilled profession and I've seen ad postings by big companies hiring good developers for values in excess of $200k per year. I can't claim to know how talented the guy is or if he's worth his paycheque but if he did most/all of the work himself and the game got finished in a few months that's usually indicative of a pretty solid developer If you're not a developer or manager of a business in general you should probably not be making armchair estimates of what costs what in the game industry and whether or not certain costs are reasonable

[QUOTE=Elspin;51509439]Don't know if you're just ignorant of what trained professionals make here but that equates to what, $83,000 a year? Programming is an extremely skilled profession and I've seen ad postings by big companies hiring good developers for values in excess of $200k per year. I can't claim to know how talented the guy is or if he's worth his paycheque but if he did most/all of the work himself and the game got finished in a few months that's usually indicative of a pretty solid developer If you're not a developer or manager of a business in general you should probably not be making armchair estimates of what costs what in the game industry and whether or not certain costs are reasonable[/QUOTE] I'm not ignorant of what skilled programmers make. They can definitely make way more than $40/hr in many cases. The issue is that when you are budgeting a solo project with significant financial risk, you can't be sure that you will be compensated what you are worth, which is what I think Bitches was getting at.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51509485]I'm not ignorant of what skilled programmers make. They can definitely make way more than $40/hr in many cases. The issue is that when you are budgeting a solo project with significant financial risk, you can't be sure that you will be compensated what you are worth, which is what I think Bitches was getting at.[/QUOTE] Then maybe don't suggest $40/hr is somehow ridiculous for a dev to make? I mean yeah, a small company may be taking a huge risk by paying that, but sometimes you have to take that risk or not make your game at all. That's definitely not exclusive to VR games, a lot of devs have taken big risks making their projects. I didn't notice if he outright said it but I think what bitches is really getting at is people shouldn't be surprised devs are taking Oculus exclusivity deals when it's so expensive/risky to make a game for VR right now, and to some extent he's right. I've said several times in this thread (although all of them are probably even buried in the last version) that the one time I think there's nothing wrong with exclusivity deals is if otherwise the game wouldn't/couldn't be made at all otherwise, because an exclusive game is better than no game at all. The only issues I've taken with those exclusivity deals is some of the games certainly seemed like they were totally on track without the funding, and while the funding might have helped them make more of a game that's way more of a grey area.

[QUOTE=EliteGuy;51509023]Yes, leaving your job is a huge investment but expecting to make $40/hr back from a single man indie game is not realistic. Spending $3000 on two music tracks is not a good management of funds either.[/QUOTE] Don't downplay indies not wanting to sell themselves short while pursuing their career. Some places are expensive to live in.

[QUOTE=bitches;51508553][url=https://medium.com/@Fr0z3n/the-costs-of-making-a-vr-game-6814a012303e#.i5rcuwc64]Another Vive developer speaks numbers about the struggle to make games without subsidizing:[/url][/QUOTE] Honestly I can't get behind this guy and his article. The guy made a boring, unappealing game in his bedroom and did some napkin math including every possible expense all the way from his internet bill to the cost of his PC to make a point of how unfathomably expensive this simple little game is, and now is upset that he hasn't recouped all of this hypothetical money he never spent. It sounds to me like the guy made a shitty game in his bedroom and now wants to get his minute in the spotlight pretending that the reason his game failed is because the VR market isn't profitable, meanwhile Dante of Onward fame made like a quarter mil off of a game so buggy I had to refund it. It's all about whether or not your game is good enough to be worth buying, and his clearly is not. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Clavus;51509570]Don't downplay indies not wanting to sell themselves short while pursuing their career. Some places are expensive to live in.[/QUOTE] I don't blame the guy for wanting to make money but at the same time, if your revolutionary new game idea is "calmly place floating mirrors in the air to redirect a LineRenderer into a trigger volume", maybe you should be prepared for the ensuing low sales.

[QUOTE=srobins;51509628]Honestly I can't get behind this guy and his article. The guy made a boring, unappealing game in his bedroom and did some napkin math including every possible expense all the way from his internet bill to the cost of his PC to make a point of how unfathomably expensive this simple little game is, and now is upset that he hasn't recouped all of this hypothetical money he never spent. It sounds to me like the guy made a shitty game in his bedroom and now wants to get his minute in the spotlight pretending that the reason his game failed is because the VR market isn't profitable, meanwhile Dante of Onward fame made like a quarter mil off of a game so buggy I had to refund it. It's all about whether or not your game is good enough to be worth buying, and his clearly is not. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] I don't blame the guy for wanting to make money but at the same time, if your revolutionary new game idea is "calmly place floating mirrors in the air to redirect a LineRenderer into a trigger volume", maybe you should be prepared for the ensuing low sales.[/QUOTE] So working full-time on his game [I]doesn't[/I] mean paying an internet bill as an expense paid for by his game that was his full-time job?

[QUOTE=bitches;51509669]So working full-time on his game [I]doesn't[/I] mean paying an internet bill as an expense paid for by his game that was his full-time job?[/QUOTE] Was he even working full time? I got the impression this guy just hammered this game out in his spare time and then formed an LLC before launch. The point I'm trying to make is that everything he complains about is not specific to VR, and I think he has really unrealistic and grandiose expectations for his success as an indie developer if he's trying to pay [I]himself[/I] $20,000+ for a game that he made in his bedroom using a PC that he already had, and internet access he was going to pay for regardless of whether or not this game was going to be made. You get paid a salary at a company you're working for because you don't typically get, you know, 100% of the profit from the product you're working on. If you're going to work for yourself and be independent I don't think you get to complain about how the rate you CHOSE to pay yourself put you in the red for the game you're receiving 100% of profit from. This guy made the type of game that you make for free in your bedroom in hopes of reaping the rewards when it blows up, a la Onward, but he's trying to inflate his experience as though he went through the proper motions of setting up an entire studio like a big boy and yet somehow still failed when his bedroom-quality game flopped. Maybe if he had set up an actual studio with multiple employees that could produce a higher quality game (with a better concept, more importantly) he would have been successful, but I don't buy what this guy is trying to say.

tbh I have Light Repair Team #4 on my wishlist but only because it'd be a good VR demo conversation starter at 1$

[QUOTE=Clavus;51509570]Don't downplay indies not wanting to sell themselves short while pursuing their career. Some places are expensive to live in.[/QUOTE] There's this dangerous enthusiasm of living in the golden age of indies that sometimes causes people to underestimate how difficult it still is to break into the industry Many first time developers whose game rose to fame had to work a second job for years before being able to become a developer full time (Minecraft, Rimworld, Stardew Valley come to mind) so if you're going to spend so much money on salaries your game better be worth it (and from the look of it, the game in question was a pretty unremarkable low budget puzzle game. Steamspy reports only 3% of players went over the 2 hours mark), or you're going to have to deal with the consequences of taking such a huge risk

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;51509751]There's this dangerous enthusiasm of living in the golden age of indies that sometimes causes people to underestimate how difficult it still is to break into the industry Many first time developers whose game rose to fame had to work a second job for years before being able to become a developer full time (Minecraft, Rimworld, Stardew Valley come to mind) so if you're going to spend so much money on salaries your game better be worth it (and from the look of it, the game in question was a pretty unremarkable low budget puzzle game. Steamspy reports only 3% of players went over the 2 hours mark), or you're going to have to deal with the consequences of taking such a huge risk[/QUOTE] TBH I feel like Minecraft is always unfair to talk about when it comes to indie games Notch was bored and making random shit, people liked it and it exploded. Many years down the road he succeeded in selling that thing he made while bored to a multi-billion dollar company. It's literally the ideal success story. He was lucky enough to have exactly what everyone wanted. How many devs can you name that have that fortune? Most struggle just getting a good idea out there. Notch just happened to make something people couldn't get enough of. I don't think his struggle was quite the same as others. Not that it didn't exist of course. He didn't have to worry about marketing like others did.

[QUOTE=Ryo Ohki;51509751]There's this dangerous enthusiasm of living in the golden age of indies that sometimes causes people to underestimate how difficult it still is to break into the industry Many first time developers whose game rose to fame had to work a second job for years before being able to become a developer full time (Minecraft, Rimworld, Stardew Valley come to mind) so if you're going to spend so much money on salaries your game better be worth it (and from the look of it, the game in question was a pretty unremarkable low budget puzzle game. Steamspy reports only 3% of players went over the 2 hours mark), or you're going to have to deal with the consequences of taking such a huge risk[/QUOTE] Thank you, this is what I was trying to get at in so many words. Even if it sounds harsh, I think the guy expected too much for too little effort. Being an indie developer has always been something of a struggle, you don't get to quit your day job, push out a baby-tier puzzle game and go "okay! Time to rake in my millions!". You build your game as a passion project while you work your day job and hope that when you finally finish it and launch, you make enough money to start developing something full-time. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=J!NX;51509765]TBH I feel like Minecraft is always unfair to talk about when it comes to indie games Notch was bored and making random shit, people liked it and it exploded. Many years down the road he succeeded in selling that thing he made while bored to a multi-billion dollar company. It's literally the ideal success story. He was lucky enough to have exactly what everyone wanted. How many devs can you name that have that fortune? Most struggle just getting a good idea out there. Notch just happened to make something people couldn't get enough of. I don't think his struggle was quite the same as others. Not that it didn't exist of course. He didn't have to worry about marketing like others did.[/QUOTE] You definitely can't use Minecraft as an example of how [I]much[/I] success a game will have, but the basic development formula was there. You work for free in hopes of finding something that people actually enjoy and are willing to spend money on.

It's one thing for an already established developer to make a VR title without making a profit and an entirely different thing for a literally who indie developer to do the same thing. Also, can we please stop acting like exclusivity is the only way to offer subsidization for games? Don't act like Oculus has any goodwill by purchasing exclusivity (even if it is just timed) from developers. The same goes for Valve and their VR "loans".

Just tried The Unspoken. Great fun, but it'll be a while before my fights consist of more than panicky spell spamming in an effort to out-dps my opponent :v: [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Stents*;51509960]Also, can we please stop acting like exclusivity is the only way to offer subsidization for games? Don't act like Oculus has any goodwill by purchasing exclusivity (even if it is just timed) from developers. [/QUOTE] They're not a charity, but they are putting a lot more money into this industry than they're getting out of it for yeaaaars. Zuck also knows that so we at least don't have to be afraid they'll be dumped for losing so much of FB's money before they get an honest shot at building a self-sustaining VR industry.

[QUOTE=Clavus;51510045]Just tried The Unspoken. Great fun, but it'll be a while before my fights consist of more than panicky spell spamming in an effort to out-dps my opponent :v: [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] They're not a charity, but they are putting a lot more money into this industry than they're getting out of it for yeaaaars. Zuck also knows that so we at least don't have to be afraid they'll be dumped for losing so much of FB's money before they get an honest shot at building a self-sustaining VR industry.[/QUOTE] The caged flying monkey thing that steals spell-balls from your enemy is so good. I just spent about two hours in SuperHot VR. I can't recommend it enough! The price is steep for its length, but I've not had that much fun playing a videogame in years. It had me falling and crawling on my floor to dodge bullets all over the place. Taking off my headset and it being dark outside was surreal. [editline]10th December 2016[/editline] I'm going to miss this large empty apartment space. [editline]a[/editline] [quote][vid]https://giant.gfycat.com/SillyReflectingKilldeer.webm[/vid][/quote]

Anyone got any good suggestion for Vive mods for pre-existing games? I'm talking Vivecraft, Penumbra VR.. that sort of thing, not some half-assed added VR support.