So, I managed to find myself a really good deal on the core books of D&D 5th edition, so I picked that up; I'm intrigued in using it to introduce new players to the hobby, and since I've been tasked with starting a boardgame/roleplaying club at my uni, I feel that this might be a sound investment.
Also, I do like the idea of streamlining the various chunky bits of D&D so who knows, I might just actually really enjoy this; the reviews certainly make it seem like a renaissance of old school D&D goodness.
[QUOTE=Muggi;49617382]So, I managed to find myself a really good deal on the core books of D&D 5th edition, so I picked that up; I'm intrigued in using it to introduce new players to the hobby, and since I've been tasked with starting a boardgame/roleplaying club at my uni, I feel that this might be a sound investment.
Also, I do like the idea of streamlining the various chunky bits of D&D so who knows, I might just actually really enjoy this; the reviews certainly make it seem like a renaissance of old school D&D goodness.[/QUOTE]
concerning your goblin hotel application you just PM'd to me
you're hired
to anyone else, position of Reception manager has been taken please don't send me any more applications concerning this position
[QUOTE=Muggi;49617382]So, I managed to find myself a really good deal on the core books of D&D 5th edition, so I picked that up; I'm intrigued in using it to introduce new players to the hobby, and since I've been tasked with starting a boardgame/roleplaying club at my uni, I feel that this might be a sound investment.
Also, I do like the idea of streamlining the various chunky bits of D&D so who knows, I might just actually really enjoy this; the reviews certainly make it seem like a renaissance of old school D&D goodness.[/QUOTE]
I hear a lot of people saying that it's very old-school D&D, but honestly that's just complete and utter bullshit.
It is very streamlined and simplified, though. Personally I'm never going to be able to enjoy it as much as I enjoy other games because of that, and other reasons, but I think it's pretty much the perfect gateway drug into tabletop RPGs.
[QUOTE=elowin;49617430]I hear a lot of people saying that it's very old-school D&D, but honestly that's just complete and utter bullshit.
It is very streamlined and simplified, though. Personally I'm never going to be able to enjoy it as much as I enjoy other games because of that, and other reasons, but I think it's pretty much the perfect gateway drug into tabletop RPGs.[/QUOTE]
Yup, this is also why I've been very skeptical about jumping ship to 5th from Pathfinder; it seems they sacrificed options for simplicity, which is understandable, since it can be quite a clusterfuck keeping track of all the things players do with their characters in PF, and the rules associated with these customizations (if you don't set restrictions as a GM, of course). But, it is also why I love it; you can make five fighters and have them be fundamentally different in PF/3.5, which is just freaking cool. The wealth of (free) options and rules are just staggering and cool as heck.
But, as stated, I definitely see the issue people might have with this, especially new players. And D&D 5th is a young system; there will more than likely be some form of expansion of options, even if Wizards aren't planning anything of the sort in the near future (hell, with the GM guild and SRD being a thing now, options are already starting to trickle in)... as long as they don't pull a 5.5 out of their ass, but that seems unlikely right now.
Also, gotta admit, the final straw that broke my will to not buy the new D&D was when they announced the new Ravenloft stuff, which is like one of my favorite D&D settings.
[QUOTE=elowin;49617430]I hear a lot of people saying that it's very old-school D&D, but honestly that's just complete and utter bullshit.
It is very streamlined and simplified, though. Personally I'm never going to be able to enjoy it as much as I enjoy other games because of that, and other reasons, but I think it's pretty much the perfect gateway drug into tabletop RPGs.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Muggi;49617480]Yup, this is also why I've been very skeptical about jumping ship to 5th from Pathfinder; it seems they sacrificed options for simplicity, which is understandable, since it can be quite a clusterfuck keeping track of all the things players do with their characters in PF, and the rules associated with these customizations (if you don't set restrictions as a GM, of course). But, it is also why I love it; you can make five fighters and have them be fundamentally different in PF/3.5, which is just freaking cool. The wealth of (free) options and rules are just staggering and cool as heck.
But, as stated, I definitely see the issue people might have with this, especially new players. And D&D 5th is a young system; there will more than likely be some form of expansion of options, even if Wizards aren't planning anything of the sort in the near future (hell, with the GM guild and SRD being a thing now, options are already starting to trickle in)... as long as they don't pull a 5.5 out of their ass, but that seems unlikely right now.
Also, gotta admit, the final straw that broke my will to not buy the new D&D was when they announced the new Ravenloft stuff, which is like one of my favorite D&D settings.[/QUOTE]
dnd5e sacrifices a lot
simplifications i dislike
- shields
- feats
- removal of charging
- non-stacking advantages
- proficiency (removal of BAB is great, replacing it with ANOTHER arbitrary number is not so great)
- fewer movement options
- fewer creature-specific mechanics
simplifications i like
- separating movement from an action
- saving throws
- not having to take power attack on every single melee character
- finesse being built into the weapon
- crit success on anything that rolls a hit dice
- grappling rules that aren't a COMPLETE clusterfuck that required a literal flowchart to get through
- removal of number bloat (one of my favourite classes in PF was Samurai, but every attack had about 3-4 modifiers on it and it got real tiresome working out which ones applied at which time - and that was one of the better classes for it)
At the end of the day, I'll play PF for a different reason than I'll play 5E. I've been having a blast with 5E, but there's obviously things that will make me pick up PF again.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49617511]dnd5e sacrifices a lot
simplifications i dislike
- shields
- feats
- removal of charging
- non-stacking advantages
- proficiency (removal of BAB is great, replacing it with ANOTHER arbitrary number is not so great)
- fewer movement options
- fewer creature-specific mechanics
simplifications i like
- separating movement from an action
- saving throws
- not having to take power attack on every single melee character
- finesse being built into the weapon
- crit success on anything that rolls a hit dice
- grappling rules that aren't a COMPLETE clusterfuck that required a literal flowchart to get through
- removal of number bloat (one of my favourite classes in PF was Samurai, but every attack had about 3-4 modifiers on it and it got real tiresome working out which ones applied at which time - and that was one of the better classes for it)
At the end of the day, I'll play PF for a different reason than I'll play 5E. I've been having a blast with 5E, but there's obviously things that will make me pick up PF again.[/QUOTE]
The system does seem to be build around the "rule of cool" in my perspective, which might explain the simplification of the movement system and the introduction of advantage/disadvantage system; to allow more GMs to make those decisions without possibly breaking other rules... Not that the rules ever stopped me from making "rule of cool" decisions in my PF campaigns; as a matter of fact, I highly encourage it.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49617511]dnd5e sacrifices a lot
simplifications i dislike
- shields
- feats
- removal of charging
- non-stacking advantages
- proficiency (removal of BAB is great, replacing it with ANOTHER arbitrary number is not so great)
- fewer movement options
- fewer creature-specific mechanics
[/QUOTE]
-Yea, It'd be nice to have more variation in shields, there's literally one.
-No way, the feat system in 5e is way better than Pathfinder. Feat taxes are not fun.
-Charging is a feat now
-Probably to avoid advantage-stacking focused builds
-They consolidated all the arbitrary numbers into 1 arbitrary number for everything
-Not sure what you mean, there's some extra action options in the DMG
-Not sure what you mean here either, creatures tend to have abilities that the players cannot get.
There's no way I'd go back to Pathfinder now, 5e is just too much of an improvement.
[QUOTE=IrishBandit;49617829]-Yea, It'd be nice to have more variation in shields, there's literally one.
-No way, the feat system in 5e is way better than Pathfinder. Feat taxes are not fun.
-Charging is a feat now
-Probably to avoid advantage-stacking focused builds
-They consolidated all the arbitrary numbers into 1 arbitrary number for everything
-Not sure what you mean, there's some extra action options in the DMG
-Not sure what you mean here either, creatures tend to have abilities that the players cannot get.
There's no way I'd go back to Pathfinder now, 5e is just too much of an improvement.[/QUOTE]
it's definitely a case of YMMV
I 100% agree on feat taxes, but there's a huge amount of customisation that came with the large pool of feats that a fair few PF players lament
I know that charging is a feat, but I liked it as a combat option for approaching in PF available to everyone.
Proficiency is definitely better, but a question that I get asked a lot as a DM is 'what do I add for Proficiency' just because people are unfamiliar with the growth of it, and what exactly it applies to (spellcasting is one I get asked about a lot)
I haven't read the extra action options in the DMG, I'll give em a look.
don't get me wrong, i absolutely love 5E and think it's overall an improvement, but it's not a replacement for everyone. (it is for me, but not for some of my friends)
[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;49616918]maybe they read the advert wrong[/QUOTE]
Oblivious characters are the best characters (limit one per party, because otherwise it's just dumb).
My favorite character is still my paladin of Khorne.
(We transitioned the game from Black Crusade to Pathfinder, which is how such a character could even exist)
I played him as a hammed-up fantasy version of Judge Dredd - who needs judges and juries when the executioner is right here? He was absolutely convinced that Khorne was a god of justice and law - and also completely oblivious to how the rest of the party was chaotic evil. Party members being kept in jail, awaiting trial for terrorism (they blew up the fantasy equivalent of the World Trade Center)? Obviously a corrupt government that must be fought - quick, fetch the alchemist's fire and a ballista, we're recreating the car chase from The Dark Knight. Archon descends from heaven to try to stop the madness? Clearly a demon in disguise - time for a three-story elbow-drop.
Khorne was willing to let the whole "good and order" thing slide because of all the chaos and death that inevitably followed the party, and my character in particular. I like to think he found it all quite funny - I know I did.
So yeah, a pacifist assassin could be a great character.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49617944]Oblivious characters are the best characters (limit one per party, because otherwise it's just dumb).
My favorite character is still my paladin of Khorne.
(We transitioned the game from Black Crusade to Pathfinder, which is how such a character could even exist)
I played him as a hammed-up fantasy version of Judge Dredd - who needs judges and juries when the executioner is right here? He was absolutely convinced that Khorne was a god of justice and law - and also completely oblivious to how the rest of the party was chaotic evil. Party members being kept in jail, awaiting trial for terrorism (they blew up the fantasy equivalent of the World Trade Center)? Obviously a corrupt government that must be fought - quick, fetch the alchemist's fire and a ballista, we're recreating the car chase from The Dark Knight. Archon descends from heaven to try to stop the madness? Clearly a demon in disguise - time for a three-story elbow-drop.
Khorne was willing to let the whole "good and order" thing slide because of all the chaos and death that inevitably followed the party, and my character in particular. I like to think he found it all quite funny - I know I did.
So yeah, a pacifist assassin could be a great character.[/QUOTE]
No, it absolutely cannot.
It doesn't matter if the other characters are the ones doing the violence, it doesn't matter if you think the target deserves death, it doesn't matter if not killing them would lead to way more violence, it doesn't matter if you cause their death without it technically being you who killed them. It's not pacifism. You cannot actually be a pacifistic assassin, it's literally not possible.
[QUOTE=elowin;49617993]No, it absolutely cannot.
It doesn't matter if the other characters are the ones doing the violence, it doesn't matter if you think the target deserves death, it doesn't matter if not killing them would lead to way more violence, it doesn't matter if you cause their death without it technically being you who killed them. It's not pacifism. You cannot actually be a pacifistic assassin, it's literally not possible.[/QUOTE]
Let me rephrase it, because you're being so pedantic about this: "an assassin who thinks he's a pacifist".
In Shadowrun, don't you suffer mental breakdowns and shit if you go against those roleplay things? Like if you picked someone who refused to kill civilians, and then he ended up killing a civilian, so he would have to roll or feel like shit forever or something?
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49618047]Let me rephrase it, because you're being so pedantic about this: "an assassin who thinks he's a pacifist".[/QUOTE]
That's not even remotely the same though. He picked the pacifist negative quality, not the "I'm an idiot who thinks he's a pacifist" negative quality. Your example is completely irrelevant to what you were replying to.
I love the adaptability of 5e. I'm thinking my next campaign will be a sci-fi setting. There will be space travel and stations and colonies and whatnot, but weapons technology will still favor swords and shit. Bows, crossbows, hand crossbows, etc will be replaced with various blaster types, magic will still exist, be prevalent, and probably be the explanation for the most advanced technologies.
And everything I've thought of so far seems very easy to adapt. I'm mostly doing this for a change of tone. My current campaign is standard dark fantasy geared towards saving all reality and blah blah blah. Huge stakes with occasional rewards in the form of artifacts and spells and such, but just finding gold and wealth means little in this campaign. I want it to be different for my next one. My players will not be fighting to save the universe, but to carve out a little piece of it for themselves. I'll have monetary rewards, repair fees, upgrades, etc.
5e's systems are so freely adaptable that making this transition shouldn't be too difficult. I may have to make some tweaks to some character classes and such, but nothing major.
[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;49618221]I love the adaptability of 5e. I'm thinking my next campaign will be a sci-fi setting. There will be space travel and stations and colonies and whatnot, but weapons technology will still favor swords and shit. Bows, crossbows, hand crossbows, etc will be replaced with various blaster types, magic will still exist, be prevalent, and probably be the explanation for the most advanced technologies.
And everything I've thought of so far seems very easy to adapt. I'm mostly doing this for a change of tone. My current campaign is standard dark fantasy geared towards saving all reality and blah blah blah. Huge stakes with occasional rewards in the form of artifacts and spells and such, but just finding gold and wealth means little in this campaign. I want it to be different for my next one. My players will not be fighting to save the universe, but to carve out a little piece of it for themselves. I'll have monetary rewards, repair fees, upgrades, etc.
5e's systems are so freely adaptable that making this transition shouldn't be too difficult. I may have to make some tweaks to some character classes and such, but nothing major.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think a lot of systems are easily adaptable into various themes they may not have been designed for; I've run steampunk, victorian thriller games with pathfinder, and lovecraftian bullshit mystery games in a modern day setting. Really, it's just about giving the various rules different explanations and such. Admittedly, it was fairly easy to do this in PF, what with the huge variety of rules and add-ons and such.
i accidentally turned to the Sci-Fi section of the 5E DMG and was confused as all hell
pretty damned awesome that they actually statted future tech.
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49618047]Let me rephrase it, because you're being so pedantic about this: "an assassin who thinks he's a pacifist".[/QUOTE]
Then you don't take the pacifist quality, you just roleplay it, because pacifist has very clear rules that says you're totally opposed to violence. Negative qualities in Shadowrun give you extra karma (XP basically), you take these downsides to have more to spend on positive qualities, skills, attributes, gear, etc. It's a balance thing.
[QUOTE=Jrose14;49618050]In Shadowrun, don't you suffer mental breakdowns and shit if you go against those roleplay things? Like if you picked someone who refused to kill civilians, and then he ended up killing a civilian, so he would have to roll or feel like shit forever or something?[/QUOTE]
They're mechanical as well as for roleplay, if you don't really like the mechanics of it you can just have your character act that way without the rules kicking you in the dick because the rest of the team are murderhobos.
[quote]To hurt another is to mar the soul. This quality represents two levels of moral inflexibility that prevent the character from delivering, or allowing others to deliver, harm to another being.
At the 10 Karma level, the character avoids violence not performed in self-defense. The character will not participate in runs involving wetwork and may try to dissuade other team members from doing so. Non-lethal attacks (gel rounds, tasers, flash-bangs, stun spells, etc.) are still considered “violent,” and may only be used in self-defense—after an opponent has clearly attacked the character, other team members, or innocent bystanders.
At the 15 Karma level, the character will not commit any violence regardless of provocation or threat to themselves or others. If the character commits any act of violence they are stricken with a powerful sense of guilt and suffer a –1 dice pool modifier to all tests involving Mental attributes until the character succeeds at a Charisma + Willpower (20, 1 day) Extended Test. If the character does not succeed at the test within seven days, they lose 1 point of Willpower or Charisma, whichever is higher. The loss is permanent, but the –1 dice pool modifier to tests involving Mental attributes goes away. If the character actually kills someone (or even thinks they did), the dice pool modifier becomes –2, the Extended Test interval changes to 1 week, and the character’s Mental Limit is decreased by 1.[/quote]
Also to give you a better idea of how it balances, being blind or deaf, severe PTSD, and stress triggered epilepsy are also worth 15 karma in SR5.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49618375]i accidentally turned to the Sci-Fi section of the 5E DMG and was confused as all hell
pretty damned awesome that they actually statted future tech.[/QUOTE]
Now that is something I din't know about; I always did love the option of including sci fi stuff in my fantasy settings, just to mix things up. I even bought the technology guide for PF, but haven't gotten a chance of using it yet.
Does the section include jetpacks?
I'd say things like PF/D&D are one of the harder systems to adapt. You've got to either heavily restrict or heavily adapt the available classes, if magic is completely removed from the setting then it has some balance/mechanical impacts on the rest of the game and it's also pretty hard to make more recent versions of D&D feel gritty without just making it feel like a low level game since the systems are just flat out not designed for high lethality.
Though of course, it's doable and it definitely fits with any high action and adventure games especially ones that have some form of magic but I would go for other more universal systems if I wanted to just learn one system and never have to worry about learning others.
[QUOTE=Muggi;49618389]Now that is something I din't know about; I always did love the option of including sci fi stuff in my fantasy settings, just to mix things up. I even bought the technology guide for PF, but haven't gotten a chance of using it yet.
Does the section include jetpacks?[/QUOTE]
can't remember off the top of my head, but it stats modern-ish tech like automatic rifles and then ultra-future tech like antimatter rifles (3d6 or d8 damage or something like that?)
I remember there's a picture of someone with a jetpack, so it might well stat it
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49618409]can't remember off the top of my head, but it stats modern-ish tech like automatic rifles and then ultra-future tech like antimatter rifles (3d6 or d8 damage or something like that?)
I remember there's a picture of someone with a jetpack, so it might well stat it[/QUOTE]
Holy shit, halflings with jetpacks. This is now something that most happen in my campaign.
It always weirds me out when high technology is only marginally better than low.
Almost ready for the first session of Only War with me as a GM. This is gonna be so fun.
It will take place in a Hivecity with some Miami Vice-vibes to it. Including nightclubs and combat chems.
Turns out Tech Priests can start out with a Baleful Eye.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;49618409]can't remember off the top of my head, but it stats modern-ish tech like automatic rifles and then ultra-future tech like antimatter rifles (3d6 or d8 damage or something like that?)
I remember there's a picture of someone with a jetpack, so it might well stat it[/QUOTE]
Just use boots of flying as a basis. You don't need separate stats for every single item in existence, you can always reflavor shit.
[QUOTE=elowin;49618119]That's not even remotely the same though. He picked the pacifist negative quality, not the "I'm an idiot who thinks he's a pacifist" negative quality. Your example is completely irrelevant to what you were replying to.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know pacifism is an actual rules-enforced thing in SR. I thought we were just talking about characterization.
[QUOTE=elowin;49618537]It always weirds me out when high technology is only marginally better than low.[/QUOTE]
Probably because if you make it too powerful, the game turns into low-level d20 Modern or Call of Cthulhu
Aka whoever goes first and is able to land a hit will probably instantly kill the other guy, necessitating a mountain of spare characters
oh man I wish I realised they had modern guns in there, now I don't need to refluff stuff for my 80's miami cop show campaign
page 268
i'd post the stats but i'm not sure how legal it'd be - the antimatter rifle is pretty damned potent though
[QUOTE=gman003-main;49618579]I didn't know pacifism is an actual rules-enforced thing in SR. I thought we were just talking about characterization.[/QUOTE]
It's Shadowrun, if it had any more rules there'd be a composure test to resist ordering fast food on stake outs.
[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;49618585]Probably because if you make it too powerful, the game turns into low-level d20 Modern or Call of Cthulhu
Aka whoever goes first and is able to land a hit will probably instantly kill the other guy, necessitating a mountain of spare characters[/QUOTE]
well to be fair
that's probably what combat should be at low levels
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