That group in that mission is quite weird
You can wave an entire fleet of destroyers, frigates, corvettes, carriers, whatever in their face and they won't give a shit until you fire one shot at something.
The game is really taking the piss though and lulling you into a false sense of security because [sp]unless you get lucky or have played HW before you won't realise that a Heavy Cruiser, 10 ish Ion Cannon Frigates and corvettes have just flanked your Mothership under the map and blown it up before you can say "wait, what the fuck?"[/sp]
To be honest by that point the game really loses all challenge [sp](aside from the annoyances of the graveyard) up until the 3 Heavy Cruisers in the final mission, but even then you can just send 2 Heavy Cruisers and Destroyers that will easily win that fight
I was really disappointed with the final mission because I expected to see the map flooded in ships, but you get a "reveal the entire map" unit in the mission before that immediately points out the inaccuracy of that, and showed the flanking fleets coming 15 minutes before they arrived[/sp]
Particularly in the mission Nightlord's talking about I'm just left scratching my head how the Devs ever thought having to deal with a Carrier and mediocre Strike Craft swarm was ever going to be a challenge. It isn't, because I learned 6 missions before that 20-30 Multi-Gun Corvettes will wreck any fighter or corvette groups the game throws at you, period.
...i'm not really enjoying this game's combat... at all. I heard it was "rock paper scissors"-y, but that's not the issue yet, although it makes the campaign pretty boring because I guess the idea is you just spam "planes", ignoring frigates and corvettes, for the first 6 or 7 missions?
It's just...mushy? Slowness of pace isn't completely the issue either, it's just that nothing happens decisively. Fights are just big, disengage-able furballs and the economy is so slow that there's really no "push pull". I'm not very happy with how large ship combat works either; everything is so short range and ships (at least Hiigaran ones? Terran? Idk what their name is) are designed so much with a front-towards-enemy approach that they just sit in front of each other, shooting for 5 or 10 minutes, instead of drawing some kind of naval parallel and letting ships circle each other from a distance. Module damage was something else I might suggest the game would benefit with. A lot boils down to short range combat, low player control, and slowness. I'm not even looking for the "bang dead" quickness of Starcraft; I'm very familiar with slow pace games (typically for realism purposes), things are just too soft. Nothing is potent.
The game is a solid 5 or 6 out of 10 for me right now. I want to keep at it and see where the game goes when it pans out, maybe look at mods, but it's been a frustrating and frankly boring experience so far.
[editline]4th March 2015[/editline]
I'm not a fan of starting with a bigass factory mothership either. It degrades the "start from the bottom up" feeling the game could, and tries, to have.
[editline]4th March 2015[/editline]
And as far as learning goes, I'm also not really a fan of how [I]so [/I]many stats are hidden. I want to see firerates, turret counts, turret locations, attack type (stationary, orbit, cloud, etc), damage per shot, bonuses like "stronger armor in front", if it has repair bays, how many, what ships fit, can you dock with it, [B]etc[/B]. You just have to eyeball a ship [I]after[/I] you research/build it, then randomly experiment with it. They don't even really have names, either. I didn't realize that my "Assault Frigate" was actually a "Flak Frigate", other than the implication with its given "strengths", which didn't mean much up until that point, until it a VO crewman called it out...after it died. That would have been a useful nuance to understand before building 4 of them.
Beat the HW2 campaign. The last mission felt more like a final mission than what the HW1 campaign's one was. The HW2 one was annoying as[sp]I kept losing because I couldn't maintain forces on the flanks to stop the missiles getting through as my ships would either be destroyed or would attack other targets when I had them set on aggressive. I kept forgetting about one of the paths so missiles would get through.[/sp]
After about 6 attempts I realized that[sp]Sajuuk has the ability to hyperspace so I just jumped it onto each of the platforms and beat the shit out of them and then the Vaygr fled like the little bitches they are. Each of my previous attempts I kept trying to engage the capital ship fleet head on in the middle to try and push through but kept losing too many ships and missiles kept sneaking through the middle path because of my ships focusing fire on the capitals and losing all my strike craft in that area. The flanks kept letting missiles through because I had strike craft set on aggressive and they kept getting pulled away by enemy strike craft and frigates when i wasn't looking.[/sp]
OK guys I mean of course everyone is going to disagree with me if they're still in the HW thread, but can I get some solutions? (or counterarguments, depending on how you look at it) I want to like the game [I]a lot[/I].
Anyone else thinking this may have something to do with my player control frustration?
[video=youtube;Cx0uxR2kZy8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx0uxR2kZy8&feature=share[/video]
Honestly for the story i love it since it looks so nice, but as a game homeworld classic was way better
Is there a way to capture fighters and corvettes? The only thing my Salvage corvettes do is move right up to them, there's no capture order.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47262440]OK guys I mean of course everyone is going to disagree with me if they're still in the HW thread, but can I get some solutions? (or counterarguments, depending on how you look at it) I want to like the game [I]a lot[/I].[/QUOTE]
To start with a general statement that addresses most of your comments: I will say that if you're playing HW1 Remastered, it has a lot of problems because they tried to shoehorn a ton of things into HW2 in a way that doesn't work. Homeworld 2 plays a lot better in Remastered because it's not trying to be something it isn't.
They tried to port things that don't make sense anymore in the HW2 engine (e.g. individual fighters), and others that just poorly implemented (e.g. flight AI conflicting with weapon design).
As a fore-warning, this will likely turn into a Homeworld Remastered rant as many of the comments are related to Homeworld 1's awkward transition into Homeworld 2's engine.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47261021]...i'm not really enjoying this game's combat... at all. I heard it was "rock paper scissors"-y, but that's not the issue yet, although it makes the campaign pretty boring because I guess the idea is you just spam "planes", ignoring frigates and corvettes, for the first 6 or 7 missions?[/quote]
Homeworld 1 Remastered is significantly spammier than it should be because you build and control fighters individually. You especially get the feeling of spam when it turns into a big awful mess and all you're doing is just building fighters and sending them to battle to replace them as they get shot down. This is wrong on so many levels, but for a lot of nuanced reasons I don't want to get into.
All I'll say is that that doesn't happen in HW1 or HW2.
[quote]It's just...mushy? Slowness of pace isn't completely the issue either, it's just that nothing happens decisively. Fights are just big, disengage-able furballs and the economy is so slow that there's really no "push pull".[/quote]
The campaign doesn't follow the same flow as skirmish/multiplayer battles do. That applies to basically all RTS campaigns. In campaign you fight against a predefined set of enemies that doesn't expand. On the big furball comment, see above for individual fighters stuff. It's worth noting too that Interceptors (and fighters in general) are much less lethal against each other than they used to be. Partly because of accuracy, but mostly because the flight AI is completely different.
[quote]I'm not very happy with how large ship combat works either; everything is so short range and ships (at least Hiigaran ones? Terran? Idk what their name is) are designed so much with a front-towards-enemy approach that they just sit in front of each other, shooting for 5 or 10 minutes, instead of drawing some kind of naval parallel and letting ships circle each other from a distance.[/quote]
In Homeworld 1, all the ships had forward facing armaments and would instead just strafe around targets. In Homeworld 1, capital ships had weaker armor on the sides and rear. In Remastered, armor is the same all-round and ships aren't as active in moving around. However, most HW1 capital ships in Remastered will still strafe around when engaging a target if you tell them to move while they're in combat.
In Homeworld 2 (and HW2R by exension), ships no longer strafe at all and instead have turrets. The best example of this is the HW2 Gunship versus the HW1 Heavy Corvette. The Gunship has two 360 degree rotating turrets on top and bottom and circles a target when it fights. The Heavy Corvette has two forward facing turrets and it would (in Classic) circle strafe a target so as to not just sit still and be an easy target.
In general, Hiigaran ships in Homeworld 2 use turrets and prefer to broadside, especially the Destoyer. In Homeworld 1 Classic (and sometimes in Remastered), all the ships had forward mounted weapons and preferred to strafe.
[quote]Module damage was something else I might suggest the game would benefit with. A lot boils down to short range combat, low player control, and slowness. I'm not even looking for the "bang dead" quickness of Starcraft; I'm very familiar with slow pace games (typically for realism purposes), things are just too soft. Nothing is potent.[/quote]
I'm just going to have to disagree with almost all of that. I think HW2's combat (and both Remastered games by extension) is far, [I]far[/I] too fast when it comes to capital ships.
I will say though that Homeworld 2 added subsystems you could target and destroy for the larger ships. Destroyers can have their engines shot out, and Battlecruisers can have their weapons disabled.
[quote]I'm not a fan of starting with a bigass factory mothership either. It degrades the "start from the bottom up" feeling the game could, and tries, to have.[/quote]
I don't know what to tell you other than I disagree.
[quote]And as far as learning goes, I'm also not really a fan of how [I]so [/I]many stats are hidden. I want to see firerates, turret counts, turret locations, attack type (stationary, orbit, cloud, etc), damage per shot, bonuses like "stronger armor in front", if it has repair bays, how many, what ships fit, can you dock with it, [B]etc[/B]. You just have to eyeball a ship [I]after[/I] you research/build it, then randomly experiment with it.[/quote]
I don't know, I found the designs and roles to be very intuitive. While I don't think what you're complaining about is a real problem, I wouldn't mind more detailed weapon stats either.
I will say though that in Homeworld 1, the build screen would show you a preview of the ship you were building and if it has landing pads it is always immediately obvious. They are huge brightly colored squares. Hangars were similarly bright blue entrances. The research screen also had a description of what you were researching that you could bring up which had a lot more flavor text about what it was and what it was for.
[quote]They don't even really have names, either. I didn't realize that my "Assault Frigate" was actually a "Flak Frigate", other than the implication with its given "strengths", which didn't mean much up until that point, until it a VO crewman called it out...after it died. That would have been a useful nuance to understand before building 4 of them.[/QUOTE]
Everything is named pretty obviously if you ask me. The only two that are kind of vague in HW1 are Assault Frigate, which as it sounds is just a general purpose frigate, and the Support frigate which can both repair and refuel. Although, fuel doesn't matter anymore in Remastered. I guess the Taiidan Defense fighter would be one too as it's not really clear what it does until you use it. It shoots down incoming bullets and missiles. Or at least, that's what it did in Classic anyway.
Also that Assault/Flak frigate thing comes from the Assault Frigate using the Flak Frigate audio from Homeworld 2. There was no such thing in HW1, and an Assault Frigate is not a Flak Frigate in any way. Their roles do not overlap. Although, in HW Remastered it is better at shooting down fighters than it used to be.
I hate sounding like one of those "bah humbug" purists, but if you want the real Homeworld experience, play Classic. In every way other than art and (debatably) UI, it's better. To be honest though, I think you would like Homeworld 2 (Remastered) more.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47262440]OK guys I mean of course everyone is going to disagree with me if they're still in the HW thread, but can I get some solutions? (or counterarguments, depending on how you look at it) I want to like the game [I]a lot[/I].
Anyone else thinking this may have something to do with my player control frustration?
[video=youtube;Cx0uxR2kZy8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx0uxR2kZy8&feature=share[/video][/QUOTE]
Most of your problems come from playing the remaster of HW 1 instead of the classic campaign. Gearbox basically ported HW 1 to HW 2's engine which fucked up HW 1 considerably.
In HW Classic:
- Strike craft maintain formation, and tactics actually influence the way they fly and shoot instead of just determining under what conditions they return fire.
-Capital ships such as frigates have different armour levels on all their facings, such that their front armour is strongest and their rear is weakest.
-Ships don't have identity issues. Your assault frigate is NOT a flak frigate, but due to being ported to the HW 2 engine it is occasionaly identified as such.
All of these issues can be found in the remaster of HW 1. HW 2 works fine, but if you want to play the first game just play the classic version so it actually works as intended.
Other issues:
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47261021]I'm not a fan of starting with a bigass factory mothership either. It degrades the "start from the bottom up" feeling the game could, and tries, to have. [/QUOTE]
Your mothership is actually quite weak. And your tech level starts out quite low. That's where your sense of being the underdog comes from. You're a fleet of exiles pitted against the ruling interstellar empire. I will admit that once you unlock heavy cruisers the feeling is diminished, but frankly at that point you've earned the right to feel like the commander of a war fleet.
Then again this point is really subjective so I dunno.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47262440]And as far as learning goes, I'm also not really a fan of how [I]so [/I]many stats are hidden. I want to see firerates, turret counts, turret locations, attack type (stationary, orbit, cloud, etc), damage per shot, bonuses like "stronger armor in front", if it has repair bays, how many, what ships fit, can you dock with it, [B]etc[/B]. You just have to eyeball a ship [I]after[/I] you research/build it, then randomly experiment with it. [/QUOTE]
I'm not sure what to make of this. The armour thing I already explained, an infact the game explicitly tells you that on mission 5, I believe. On everything else, well, this just isn't that kind of game. You get a picture of the ship in the build screen, so you can look at all the stuff it has, and you get a bunch of numbers under the pictures so you get a rudimentary sense of how much health and firepower it has, and a few other stats like mass and how much coverage it's weapons grant it.
I'm not sure what else to say other than to play the classic versions of the campaign instead of the remaster. You may want to read part 2 of the manual, in particular section 8 which has tons of information on ships which you may be interested in. I'm pretty sure it should be in your game folder, but I'm leaving links just in case. Part 1 of the manual is just backround information on the setting, but I recommend reading it anyway as it's pretty darn cool and gives you more of a feel for the people in the ships you command.
[url]http://www.homeworldaccess.net/downloads.php?cat_id=9&download_id=33[/url] - Part 1
[url]http://www.homeworldaccess.net/downloads.php?cat_id=9&download_id=32[/url] - Part 2
Just discovered this:
[URL="http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=401723873"]http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=401723873[/URL]
Looks like someone is working towards fixing the issues such Assault Frigates being too good at killing Strike Craft, and the strafing.
Quote about strafing:
[QUOTE]- Kushan and Taiidan Corvettes now attempt to 'strafe' their target as in Homeworld with their noses facing the target for best weapons coverage. This should fix the angle of fire issues with Homeworld faction corvettes, and I've also made them stick together more, but sadly I can't make them stick together in formations. These should perform much closer to their Homeworld classic behaviour, though. EXPERIMENTAL. [/QUOTE]
There's at least two similar mods to what I was working on that I've tried on the Workshop. I'm obviously biased, but because mine uses all the numbers directly from HW1, I think mine is the most faithful and "classic" feeling, especially when it comes to weapon stats such as rate of fire, muzzle velocity, and burst length. However I haven't had the time to work on AI behaviors.
I really haven't had much time to work on it at all. I have too many projects and too little free time.
[url="http://steamcommunity.com/games/244160#announcements/detail/222138638563266680"]Patch 1 is out[/url], including a lot of campaign bugfixes, fixed HW1 weapon sounds and lowered Vaygr strikecraft Kamikaze damage.
They still need to fix the mouse smoothing. This is 2015 and its an RTS none the less, homeworld should not have any mouse smoothing at all. Needs an option for hardware cursor.
But on the bright side, borderless window now works if you download some borderless window applications.
[QUOTE=Marik Bentusi;47265609][url="http://steamcommunity.com/games/244160#announcements/detail/222138638563266680"]Patch 1 is out[/url], including a lot of campaign bugfixes, fixed HW1 weapon sounds and lowered Vaygr strikecraft Kamikaze damage.[/QUOTE]
Honestly the fact that they use the original sounds now makes me really happy.
Really hopeful for the future for this
Friend wanted to know "What patch version is Homeworld Classic?" If it could be posted publically here that'd be great too, I don't check my messages.
[QUOTE=Frankerest;47272971]Friend wanted to know "What patch version is Homeworld Classic?" If it could be posted publically here that'd be great too, I don't check my messages.[/QUOTE]
1.06.1 is the listed patch version on Gearbox's Homeworld classic.
For some reason there's more render and screen tearing in it then my original disk version.
I hate having to consult the [I]grand list of population[/I] for my building decisions.
I'm finding HW2:R to be much more enjoyable than HW1:R, in any case.
[editline]7th March 2015[/editline]
Just so it doesn't go unnoticed: thank you Why and wolfos, your posts helped a lot in orienting myself. I haven't tried HW1 classic yet but I plan on that next.
[QUOTE=Mbbird;47274455]I'm finding HW2:R to be much more enjoyable than HW1:R, in any case.[/QUOTE]
Can't say I'm surprised: I strongly preferred HW1 but of the Remastered games HW2 plays better. It's as simple as the engine being designed to play the sequel and it really shows.
HW2 Feels more fast pace, resource collectors also move quicker. The only downside however maybe I'm early on in the campaign but it feels repairing is a chore since you can only use the weak resource collectors to repair. But again I'm early in the campaign so hopefully there might be other ships that can repair.
[QUOTE=Toyokunari;47274558]HW2 Feels more fast pace, resource collectors also move quicker. The only downside however maybe I'm early on in the campaign but it feels repairing is a chore since you can only use the weak resource collectors to repair. But again I'm early in the campaign so hopefully there might be other ships that can repair.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe there are other ships that can repair. If I recall correctly, however, capital ships can auto repair themselves slowly overtime. Fighters and corvettes also dock quicker so they're a bit faster to repair inside a production ship.
I beat HW2R some days ago. As other people reported, the "epic" sound that plays when [sp]the planet killers[/sp] appears doesn't play. Also the "Bring Sajuuk to bear" sounds different.
Overall I find this good. Let's see if Gearbox can continue improving stuff.
Is it normal to get 21 assault frigates from the Ghost Ship?
[QUOTE=Unib5;47290360]Is it normal to get 21 assault frigates from the Ghost Ship?[/QUOTE]
I thought the Ghost Ship never produced anything more than the Destroyer and 3-4 Frigates it starts with
[QUOTE=Dr.Critic;47290795]I thought the Ghost Ship never produced anything more than the Destroyer and 3-4 Frigates it starts with[/QUOTE]
I got exactly 21 Assault Frigates (plus the normal other stuff), made taking the Ghost Ship control field down very difficult because Assault Frigates really put the hurt on strike craft. I had only 5 attack bombers left.
Ship count scales based on your fleet size. The more ships you have, the more ships you fight.
[QUOTE=Gunner th;47291213]Ship count scales based on your fleet size. The more ships you have, the more ships you fight.[/QUOTE]
Dynamic difficulty. That's why for some people they found more than three assault frigates at mission 3 for example.
I believe there are mods to disable it.
The reason why HW2 becomes so annoying is because of the scaling difficulty
Which is why bringing 3 Sajuuks and 7 Dreadnoughts to Bear through cheats is the best way to say "fuck you" to that bs.
I really hope HW gets like a Starcraft 2-esque arcade where people can make a bunch of gamemodes to just have fun with and not be super serious about the multiplayer.
thats another thing i've noticed
No one wants to compstomp, everyone on multiplayer is super competitive and really love to criticize you for no reason.
So i like to turtle and you like to rush, who cares?
Why do most maps in the Skirmish have fuck all resources? Like 30 per asteroid, 60 if you set the multiplier High. It makes most maps impossible to play.
"Failed" (aka restarted because I lost most of my crafts) the second mission (HW1R) thrice before I realized you weren't supposed to kill the carrier....
[QUOTE=I am Error;47294651]Why do most maps in the Skirmish have fuck all resources? Like 30 per asteroid, 60 if you set the multiplier High. It makes most maps impossible to play.[/QUOTE]
Because Gearbox fucked up on that part
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