PAYDAY 2 V9 - 900% More Chromatic Aberration and Lens dirt Edition - Games

[QUOTE=Loadingue;50656837]Fuck me, I forgot how people don't like RNG. RNG is not necessarily bad. The whole game is about RNG, it's just a question of balancing.[/QUOTE] They made it hard as hell to compensate for stealth going wrong. Either you move as fast as you can in your hefty gear and hope you dont get spotted or you're geared for stealth and get shat on the minute cops appear. Some don't mind restarting 5 times in a row, others not so much. If that were fixed or improved somehow, then maybe that pager RNG would be fine.

maybe if you could somehow trick the police into saying it's a 'false positive' on some heists it'd make sense and it would possibly add to strategies on the heist

[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;50656916]RNG works in some places and doesn't in others Pagers being tied to RNG would mean you couldn't reliably employ a certain strategy so it doesn't. You'd be able to kill 7 or 4 and it would be a gamble each time, meaning resets would be even more plentiful[/QUOTE] You're missing the point. The point is that you can't form a strategy based on effectively killing guards. Avoiding them is always the better option, but if you end up having to kill one, RNG may play in your favour by not triggering the pager, depending on the way you neutralize him. In the worst case, it plays as it does now. In the best case, you get second chances. That's why this bit of RNG works in my opinion. Don't want to risk getting fucked by RNG? Don't risk killing a guard. That in particular should be a gamble, because it makes sense for it to be.

What's the point of changing the current system if the better option is still to avoid killing guards?

Dominating a guard shouldn't trigger his pager, but aside from that I think the current system is fine. They should add camera operators on heists that don't have them though (framing frame comes to mind) I don't really want a rework that allows you to "stealth" a heist without any consequences because you got lucky and didn't trigger more than 4 pagers. Running around on a stealth map with everyone dead isn't very exciting.

[QUOTE=PaperMartin;50657543]What's the point of changing the current system if the better option is still to avoid killing guards?[/QUOTE] Because why shouldn't it be it? Stealth has always been like that, it makes sense. Better stealth shouldn't mean you can just go on a rampage and kill guards as you wish. My point is making the pager system less rigid, less linear. Less frustrating.

[QUOTE=Recurracy;50655498]I gotta admit I too kicked someone once for really fucking up... But we told numerous times already what was going to happen and when he can put the ingredient in. It was Proverkill HM, he picked up the Cs while another guy picked up Mu and Hcl. Despite being told numerous times to wait he still threw in the Cs in the wrong vat as soon as he could. He then said 'i dident know :D' I mean there's accidentally making a mistake... And then there's doing this.[/QUOTE] One time I was stealthing framing frame online, it was day 3 and we were at the vault. Someone was helping me with the bags and whatnot, and when the vault opened, I told him to wait and not to go in until someone gets the computer. he walks right in as soon as it opens and triggers the alarm

I am legitimately puzzled as to how you could get rid of the absolute 4 pager limit without making it too easy. One of the root problems is that 4 pagers is too little to be fun on some heists, and too much to make sense, or too much for some other heists. Is a heist-specific pager system necessary? I think not. There should be a (difficult) way to not have a pager trigger. What about ECMs? That would make sense. The pager won't trigger if you melee an unalerted guard while an ECM is active? I have no idea how fair that would be.

I don't see what's wrong with the 4 pager limit, why is it so frustrating for you?

[QUOTE=DS_;50657690]I don't see what's wrong with the 4 pager limit, why is it so frustrating for you?[/QUOTE] On one side, you have heists like Bank Heist, Four Stores, Jewelry Store. On those, the 4 pager limit is irrelevant since you won't find more than 4 guards. On the other side, you have almost every single other heist with 5 to 20 guards. At some point you find yourself in the situation where you've killed 4 guards and you tell yourself "if only I could just kill one more." And sometimes you're even forced to do it with the choice of nothing but going loud or restarting. But you can't because there's an arbitrary pager limit that doesn't make sense in-universe. And there's no way around it.

[QUOTE=Loadingue;50657733]On the other side, you have almost every single other heist with 5 to 20 guards. At some point you find yourself in the situation where you've killed 4 guards and you tell yourself "if only I could just kill one more." And sometimes you're even forced to do it with the choice of nothing but going loud or restarting. But you can't because there's an arbitrary pager limit that doesn't make sense in-universe. And there's no way around it.[/QUOTE] And the solution to that is to avoid killing these 4 guards in the first place

[QUOTE=Loadingue;50657733]On one side, you have heists like Bank Heist, Four Stores, Jewelry Store. On those, the 4 pager limit is irrelevant since you won't find more than 4 guards. On the other side, you have almost every single other heist with 5 to 20 guards. At some point you find yourself in the situation where you've killed 4 guards and you tell yourself "if only I could just kill one more." And sometimes you're even forced to do it with the choice of nothing but going loud or restarting. But you can't because there's an arbitrary limit that doesn't make sense in-universe. And there's no way around it.[/QUOTE] It's (usually, not talking about bugs here) not the game's fault if you fuck up 4 times or decide to kill 4 guards then fuck up without any pagers left. Like you said, it's best not to kill a guard in the first place. You're only really forced to kill a guard when they go stationary for no reason (shadow raid, framing frame), it should be fixed.

Except that it's not that simple. The heists are designed so that guards are in your way, and the game wants you to kill them. Look at the guard positioning and pathing in the Alesso Heist. You don't always have to kill guards, but sometimes you do. And yet you talk as if completing heists without killing a single guard is no problem. Is it really? How exactly do you complete Big Bank without killing a single guard?

[QUOTE=Loadingue;50657876]Except that it's not that simple. The heists are designed so that guards are in your way, and the game wants you to kill them. Look at the guard positioning and pathing in the Alesso Heist. You don't always have to kill guards, but sometimes you do. And yet you talk as if completing heists without killing a single guard is no problem. Is it really? How exactly do you complete Big Bank without killing a single guard?[/QUOTE] You don't complete Big Bank without killing a single guard, you kill the guards in the main lobby and avoid the ones in the pre-vault areas, it's difficult and tedious but that's not the pager system's fault. Same in Alesso, you kill the guy in the DJ booth and the basement guards and avoid the rest, again, it's your fault if you get spotted by the other ones. There's a limit to how many times you can fuck up, and some heists are just less forgiving than others. If anything, it's the level design that fucks you over, not the pager system.

You can also clear both Big Bank and Alesso without killing any guards. In Big Bank, I believe the server room and timelock are no longer uncool triggers. The pyro room guard on Alesso is trickier, but still doable. I really don't think the 4 pager limit needs adjustment- to the extent that the designer wants to give the player more leeway, they can use beat cops, who don't have pagers. [QUOTE=fendermcbender;50653732]none of that sounds particularly fun especially since every twist is coupled with "but wait, there's more!" also there's a reason every computer hack/mandatory drill in stealth is relatively short -- unpredictable enemy pathing + instant detection is not fun[/QUOTE] There are 2 guards on the upper level of day 2 that can path by the computers. This is usually the first two guards that players take out, since they make navigating the map much, much easier. [QUOTE=Lone_Star94;50653878]I feel like you never played Framing Frame on loud. That computer hack sucks, it's not even fun. Having to restart a 400 sec hack from scratch is way too punishing for the players to be fun. Most of your heists don't even sound fun, just adding tedious baby sitting shit is not how you make a fun heist.[/QUOTE] Per the description, the stealth hack is not 400 seconds. You're not restarting the 400 from scratch if enemies get to the power boxes. More generally, loud objectives in payday 2 are almost universally defending points for a period of time, or moving bags. That's what the game [I]is[/I].

I'll probably get disagreed with a bunch but I can't stand payday 2 stealth I love stealth games to death I grew up on hit man and metal gear and found comfort in splinter cell as an adult and I cannot stand anything higher than Bank heist Payday 2 is at its core a horde shooter and playing it stealth always seems like I'm breaking the rules of the game The 4 guards rule is frustrating but at least makes sense. If you want to see what stealth looks like with out a pager limit its called Big Oil day one and as cool as it is its also completely ridiculous The kdea of robbing a bank with your friends silently is really fun but stealth is more often than not the one guy who's watched general badass videos runs forward while the rest of you sit near a drill or twiddle your thumbs And then for God's sake if you're in stealth and it's going perfect hurry the drills up waiting 5 minutes every time I want to grind gold is killing me What bothers me most of all and I guess it's "realistic" but unlike any other stealth game you get spotted boom it's over In metal gear or splinter cell if you get spotted you choose between fleeing the scene or staying to fight your way through to the objective Payday fleeing is off the table because we have a job to do but theoretically we could stay to fight but because Stealth requires you to bring your incredibly gimped perk deck and 3 conceal guns, no one on the planet ever does, which creates monstrously frustrating scenarios where you'll be stealthing a mission cor 40 minutes and then opps, someone got spotted, send in the thermal drill you all die

[QUOTE=Finale;50658029]Per the description, the stealth hack is not 400 seconds. You're not restarting the 400 from scratch if enemies get to the power boxes. More generally, loud objectives in payday 2 are almost universally defending points for a period of time, or moving bags. That's what the game [I]is[/I].[/QUOTE] Yeah but that's just over 13 minutes of sitting on your ass shooting guards if you didn't finish either hack. That's a long fucking time. [editline]6th July 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Dick Slamfist;50658122]I'll probably get disagreed with a bunch but I can't stand payday 2 stealth I love stealth games to death I grew up on hit man and metal gear and found comfort in splinter cell as an adult and I cannot stand anything higher than Bank heist[/QUOTE] My personal biggest problem with PAYDAY stealth is that guards really seem to be able to spot you way too easily in casing mode. Like if you're wearing any sort of armor that's fair game because that shit should be a dead giveaway but when you're running suits it's like they have proximity x-ray vision for guns. [editline]a[/editline] It'd be great if there was a way to just not take a primary to reduce your chance to get spotted. You lose your main fuck-shit-up gun but it makes it easier to case shit. [editline]a[/editline] Besides, a silenced Deagle is fine for taking out guards when you're stealthing.

Well, I give up. The 4 pagers limit is probably a consequence, not a cause of what makes stealth unsatisfying. There are more questionable things about stealth that were mentioned by Dick Slamfist.

[QUOTE=gk99;50658138]Yeah but that's just over 13 minutes of sitting on your ass shooting guards if you didn't finish either hack. That's a long fucking time. [/QUOTE] 6.667 minutes. The hacks can and should be run simultaneously. Again, "sitting on your ass shooting cops" is what the loud game is about.

I think the 4 pagers limit is fine. If it wasn't there, it'd be way too easy. I think it'd be better just to have infinite number of civs coming from time to time or answering phones or cars that pass in front of the bank, just some more stuff to look out for that could screw you from start to finish instead of the "clear this area, then you litteraly can't fail" we have right now. I've kicked people back when I started the game but it was the opposite ; I kicked the high-level ones because I wanted to discover the game on my own and not get carried by someone who knows all the objectives by heart.

Also bumping into security guards causing an instant alert is silly Sometimes it happens totally on accident And this is pedantic but I've always never understood the logic of having to be masked up to be able to rewire cameras or lockpick

[QUOTE=Dick Slamfist;50658412] And this is pedantic but I've always never understood the logic of having to be masked up to be able to rewire cameras or lockpick[/QUOTE] I think originally it was because if someone sees you doing something suspicious without your mask at they could remember your face and identify you, this of course no longer makes any sense in the era of sunglasses and tiara's but before that, in the first game especially there was more a sense of secrecy, making a point of wiping the cameras when you went into a recorded area with no mask

No witnesses

I still like the idea of a variable pagers limit that's set per heist, not just a hard four for any. Not RNG but how many pagers you get in a heist is different in a heist to heist bases. So you'd get bain telling you each time "He belived that line" if you still have a few left "He still doesn't suspect anything" going on to "He's starting to get suspicious" and "He's catching on to something being off." right down to the out and out "That was your last chance, next time he'll call it in." That way larger maps are less of a pain when it comes to dodging a million guard that seem to converge and get stuck in a really awkward place and smaller maps are not rendered super easy by being able to depopulate them.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;50658849]I still like the idea of a variable pagers limit that's set per heist, not just a hard four for any. Not RNG but how many pagers you get in a heist is different in a heist to heist bases. So you'd get bain telling you each time "He belived that line" if you still have a few left "He still doesn't suspect anything" going on to "He's starting to get suspicious" and "He's catching on to something being off." right down to the out and out "That was your last chance, next time he'll call it in." That way larger maps are less of a pain when it comes to dodging a million guard that seem to converge and get stuck in a really awkward place and smaller maps are not rendered super easy by being able to depopulate them.[/QUOTE] Increased pagers for some maps sure, but I think decreased for others too, Jewlery store should have 2 for both guards, also The Ukrainian job which can have 3 guards should still have 2 for that extra challenge since it's the Pro version

yeah, the bigger heists could use an extra 2 pagers at most

[QUOTE=Ruby_Axe;50658868]Increased pagers for some maps sure, but I think decreased for others too, Jewlery store should have 2 for both guards, also The Ukrainian job which can have 3 guards should still have 2 for that extra challenge since it's the Pro version[/QUOTE] Indeed, how many guards you can kill should scale with hiest in both directions.

[QUOTE=Dick Slamfist;50658412]Also bumping into security guards causing an instant alert is silly Sometimes it happens totally on accident[/QUOTE] Funnily enough, though bumping into guards makes you mask up, it is possible to not fully alert them afterwards. You can test to by going into car shop and walking up the staircase. You can bump into the guard there, be still get upstairs without him going uncool. This basically doesn't come up otherwise though.

That's the most painfull escape on the entire game, right? I failed 4 times, 4/4 are bugs: - 2 times safes get stuck on the ground, 1 time the safe bug in the truck and we can't get it out, the last time something like my print, the helicopter just don't go... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bjqjMDH.jpg?1[/IMG] Sorry the shitty quality, when you resize on imgur, everything goes crazy

[QUOTE=SirArucard;50659526]That's the most painfull escape on the entire game, right? I failed 4 times, 4/4 are bugs: - 2 times safes get stuck on the ground, 1 time the safe bug in the truck and we can't get it out, the last time something like my print, the helicopter just don't go... [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/bjqjMDH.jpg?1[/IMG] Sorry the shitty quality, when you resize on imgur, everything goes crazy[/QUOTE] Every single time I do this, no one gets in the van immediately and they all start dying one by one. So I just hide in the building next to it, wait for them to bleed out then get in. Every. Single. Time.