Fallout V23: "I got another thread that needs your help." - Games

[QUOTE=bananarBanana;49307678]its gonna feel weird having modded quests where your character doesnt say anything but lets be honest most if not all quest mods were kinda rubbish[/QUOTE] quest mods for F3 were the only thing that kept me playing it because it sure as hell wasn't the COMPELLING main quest that came with the game not everything around are willow and loverslab mods you know on the top of my head pucemoose and mike hancho quest mods top most of the similar quests included in the game by bethesda

The Witcher 3 had a search area for most quests rather than a marker but you also had geralt's equivalent of detective mode to find points of interests and track things within that area. It was a fairly good compromise, although it did feel quite irritating at times. However the level design in Fallout 4 is a lot more vertical and has a lot more going on in any given space so specific map markers to know whether you are above or below the objective is necessary in some locations.

[QUOTE=coyote93;49307713]Guys, the problem with the fo4 dialogue is not that it is only 4 choices. The problem is that almost all of the choices leads to exactly the same response. Sure, you can be "sarcastic" or friendly or neutral about it, but the conclusion is the same, you will do what the person requests.[/QUOTE] You mean exactly like how most of the quests went in Fallout 3 and New Vegas ? You either say no and the quest giver waits for you to say yes or you say yes and the quest begins. If the quest is somehow major and essential for the main quest to continue, you can't say no forever because you ultimately have to move forward with the MQ. And in most cases there's the added option of just shooting everyone in the face like in Fallout 3 or New Vegas.

[QUOTE=coyote93;49307713]Guys, the problem with the fo4 dialogue is not that it is only 4 choices. The problem is that almost all of the choices leads to exactly the same response. Sure, you can be "sarcastic" or friendly or neutral about it, but the conclusion is the same, you will do what the person requests.[/QUOTE] Just the principle of "we need to have the same number of dialogue options every dialogue" is already restricting enough. Sometimes you just need a yes or no option. Sometimes you need a lot of options to ask about a lot of stuff. There's no set rule forcing you to put the same number of options regardless of what is being discussed, that only leads to cutting stuff when you needed more content and giving you different options for the same things when you needed less.

[QUOTE=coyote93;49307713]Guys, the problem with the fo4 dialogue is not that it is only 4 choices. The problem is that almost all of the choices leads to exactly the same response. Sure, you can be "sarcastic" or friendly or neutral about it, but the conclusion is the same, you will do what the person requests.[/QUOTE] Story aside this system still sucks ass, oh you accidentally pressed cure me instead barter, can you back out to barter? No, you must say goodbye and then start talking again.

[QUOTE=bananarBanana;49307678]When it comes to mods, obviously its gonna feel weird having modded quests where your character doesnt say anything but lets be honest most if not all quest mods were kinda rubbish[/QUOTE] Actually, having "No Voice mod" isn't weird at all if you also disable the "Dialogue Camera" thingy from the game's own options. [media]https://youtu.be/4UoI49DR6Jw?t=27s[/media] (Skip to like 0:27 up to 4min, this guy's format in the videos is like as if talking to a child, trying to get mods to work. There's a certain value what this in Gopher guy does, bunch of instructional vids too.) I don't use it personally, there's also a Lite version of this dialogue mod that retains the 4-way menu, but with the actual lines spoken visible. Didn't know the Lite version existed until now. I will keep the voice and dialogue camera though.

The biggest restriction the 4 option system puts is when it comes to asking questions. Each time you talk to someone they practically have one option that's just lore exposition but sometimes (especially during the main quest) you'll get a character who really stops all dialogue, awkwardly asks you if you have questions, and you get like three questions instead of just one as usual. The previous system was also pretty weird and lead to some awkward dialogue ("I want to talk about something else"..."Goodbye.") though.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307716]You mean exactly like how most of the quests went in Fallout 3 and New Vegas ? You either say no and the quest giver waits for you to say yes or you say yes and the quest begins. If the quest is somehow major and essential for the main quest to continue, you can't say no forever because you ultimately have to move forward with the MQ..[/QUOTE] What? You don't need to even do anything but a) confront benny somehow and b) fight the hoover dam battle to finish New Vegas if you don't want. Even in the main quest. Goodsprings? No need, get your info and leave if you want. Primm? Just get the info from Beagle and go. Novac? Get if from Manny or from his terminal. And the list goes on. You don't even need to start the quests properly and when you do you have several ways to complete and to react to them I'm again forced to question if you ever played New Vegas because you sure don't look like you did.

Well for instance Caesar won't completely turn you down even if you say no to him, he'll tell you to fuck off but you can still go back to him if you want to go for his quests - until you've fucked him over and actually made an enemy out of the legion, that is. Also being able to skip quests and hop forward in the story isn't related to how dialogue works. If you tell manny you'll get info some other way, unless you actually get that info some other way or just move forward, he'll still be readily available to give you the quest. Practically speaking, you rarely if ever get locked out of a quest because you said no. You're usually told to come back when you've changed your mind, which can be never if you wish to.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49307685]quest mods for F3 were the only thing that kept me playing it because it sure as hell wasn't the COMPELLING main quest that came with the game not everything around are willow and loverslab mods you know on the top of my head pucemoose and mike hancho quest mods top most of the similar quests included in the game by bethesda[/QUOTE] no main quest in a fallout game has been compelling, try to cherry pick a little better.

[QUOTE=coyote93;49307713]Guys, the problem with the fo4 dialogue is not that it is only 4 choices. The problem is that almost all of the choices leads to exactly the same response. Sure, you can be "sarcastic" or friendly or neutral about it, but the conclusion is the same, you will do what the person requests.[/QUOTE] (Not directed at you, just felt like quoting your post fit with the theme.) You can hate on the voiced protagonist as much as you want, but ultimately that's not at all why the dialogue in Fallout 4 seems worse off than before. Hell you can even chalk it up to the 4-choices limit, but even then that's not the core problems. Time and time again Fallout 4 fails because of the writing. Not only is the "wheel" awful because it's vague as all hell (I mean come on "Sarcastic", "Shawn" like what the hell?) but there are hardly times where there's actually even 3 choices, usually it's 2 and a lot of the time just one. At that point why even bother? Witcher 3 most of the time only had 2 choices, but at least they weren't trying to hide it behind "Sarcastic" option. I hate to keep on banging about it but Fallout 4's greatest mishap is in the writing department by far, because it ultimately touches on most of the game's aspects in some way. The radiant quests are really irritating because of the writing, going to Sanctuary can feel inane because of the writing, nobody gives a single fuck about Shawn because of the writing, etc. When the greatest part about your writing is a couple mentions of a guy with a vivid imagination going around "gunning" people down with his "motorcycle", something's gone wrong.

[QUOTE=Pops;49307754]no main quest in a fallout game has been compelling, try to cherry pick a little better.[/QUOTE] Fallout didn't started with 3 you know

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49307762]Fallout didn't started with 3 you know[/QUOTE] no shit sherlock but running around the wasteland to fetch some water dispenser thing isn't SO EPIC 10/10 I CAME CHILDREN either

[QUOTE=Pops;49307771]no shit sherlock but running around the wasteland to fetch some water dispenser thing isn't SO EPIC 10/10 I CAME CHILDREN either[/QUOTE] The Master, who's that? Also how in the diddly ducks can you say something so blatantly wrong. It's your subjective opinion that they haven't been compelling. Hell, someone could find Fallout 4's main quest compelling and while I would question their tastes, they're not inherently wrong.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307749]Also being able to skip quests and hop forward in the story isn't related to how dialogue works. If you tell manny you'll get info some other way, unless you actually get that info some other way or just move forward, he'll still be readily available to give you the quest.[/QUOTE] He gives you the quest out of his interest, not because the game is forcing you to pick it. He says it himself "Now that you have the information you need you have no reason to do this for me, but you look like a nice guy so can i still tell you about it?". And you can tell him to fuck off anyway Same with Caesar, the only reason he doesn't lock you out of doing his quest later if you say no is for gameplay reasons, not related to the dialogue system itself. The choices are still there and so are the several different ways of doing them, unlike F4. It's far from being the same thing.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49307774]He gives you the quest out of his interest, not because the game is forcing you to pick it. He says it himself "Now that you have the information you need you have no reason to do this for me, but you look like a nice guy so can i still tell you about it?". And you can tell him to fuck off anyway Same with Caesar, the only reason he doesn't lock you out of doing his quest later if you say no is for gameplay reasons, not related to the dialogue system itself. The choices are still there and so are the several different ways of doing them, unlike F4. It's far from being the same thing.[/QUOTE] I'm 99% sure theres at least one point in both the caesar and house main quests where a dialogue option to refuse to do what they ask results in them turning hostile

[QUOTE=bananarBanana;49307781]I'm 99% sure theres at least one point in both the caesar and house main quests where a dialogue option to refuse to do what they ask results in them turning hostile[/QUOTE] I remember Elijah having one "Are you sure that you're going to disobey me?" "Yeah i'm a player character, there's no way you would ki-" bang

Caesar still lets out that he's not even sure whether you refusing to help him is serious or just a bad joke, and he gets visibly mad at you refusing his offer. Point being, dialogue in fallout has almost always been "yes I want your quest" or "no I don't want your quest right now", and has very rarely had any moment where saying no is absolutely 100% definitive and leads to fully losing all possibility to do that quest. Dead Money's practically the only point in New Vegas where outright refusing a quest will lead to instant failure and that's just a funny quip, it's a forced yes with a funny twist on saying no just like how running away from the vault in Fallout 4 will get your ass blasted to hell immediately.

[QUOTE=I am Error;49307772]The Master, who's that? Also how in the diddly ducks can you say something so blatantly wrong. It's your subjective opinion that they haven't been compelling. Hell, someone could find Fallout 4's main quest compelling and while I would question their tastes, they're not inherently wrong.[/QUOTE] and it's your subjective opinion that i'm wrong. if we really want to be technical fallout 1's main quest is just a long fetch/kill quest. i'm not saying bethesda somehow corrected that, but they've pretty much done the same thing since the beginning and people like to throw on the nostalgia goggles every time a new entry is made.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307788]Caesar still lets out that he's not even sure whether you refusing to help him is serious or just a bad joke, and he gets visibly mad at you refusing his offer. Point being, dialogue in fallout has almost always been "yes I want your quest" or "no I don't want your quest right now", and has very rarely had any moment where saying no is absolutely 100% definitive and leads to fully losing all possibility to do that quest.[/QUOTE] it can lead to different rewards or options within the same quest e.g peaceful vs aggressive option

[QUOTE=bananarBanana;49307794]it can lead to different rewards or options within the same quest e.g peaceful vs aggressive option[/QUOTE] I don't exactly remember whether there was any dialogue toward Caesar or House in New Vegas that was basically "yeah I'll kill you now" since I never picked these options to begin with. I know for sure that you can turn House hostile immediately by using the terminal to access his containment chamber, and it has like two or three different stages of confirmation before it lets you actually commit to that decision. You can complete a bunch of side quests in Fallout 4 by going aggressive. Since you can now interrupt dialogue at any point having a specific dialogue option for initiating combat is a bit redundant since you can just pull your gun and shoot someone in the head as they talk.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307788]Caesar still lets out that he's not even sure whether you refusing to help him is serious or just a bad joke, and he gets visibly mad at you refusing his offer. Point being, dialogue in fallout has almost always been "yes I want your quest" or "no I don't want your quest right now", and has very rarely had any moment where saying no is absolutely 100% definitive and leads to fully losing all possibility to do that quest. Dead Money's practically the only point in New Vegas where outright refusing a quest will lead to instant failure and that's just a funny quip, it's a forced yes with a funny twist on saying no just like how running away from the vault in Fallout 4 will get your ass blasted to hell immediately.[/QUOTE] It doesn't have to be a matter of "doing the quest or not" It can be a matter of "doing a quest this way or being locked out of that possibility" which is only possible when the quest have multiple ways of being solved (something F4 lacked) You can still complete ghost town gunfight by refusing to help Cobb, you just can't complete it for the powder gangers anymore. You can still give Primm a new sheriff if you're hostile with the NCR, you just don't have the option of asking for their help anymore. Beyond the Beef can be completed in thousand of different ways with you being locked of different outcomes if you goof up during it. That's the point.

[QUOTE=Pops;49307793]and it's your subjective opinion that i'm wrong. if we really want to be technical fallout 1's main quest is just a long fetch/kill quest. i'm not saying bethesda somehow corrected that, but they've pretty much done the same thing since the beginning and people like to throw on the nostalgia goggles every time a new entry is made.[/QUOTE] It's not subjective at all. If you were to just say "I don't find them compelling" it'd be fine, but you're trying to say none of them are compelling as a fact, as pointed by you telling him to cherry pick a little better. Also if you go that route no story is compelling. They all boil down to something simple and dull, which is why people tend to not do that.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307807] You can complete a bunch of side quests in Fallout 4 by going aggressive. Since you can now interrupt dialogue at any point having a specific dialogue option for initiating combat is a bit redundant since you can just pull your gun and shoot someone in the head as they talk.[/QUOTE] but then from a roleplaying point of view if you're playing the badass snarky protagonist then you can say a one-liner to the boss before you blast their head off

To be honest the amount of options you have to solve a quest isn't tied to dialogue but to how the quest is built. Bethesda has never given as many options regarding quest completion as Obsidian which is deplorable but it's not linked to dialogue having four or six or ten options. Bethesda's quests in Fallout 3 are practically always do it the good way, do it the evil way, or shoot your way out of it. See for instance the Arefu quest where you can convince Vance to let the kid go, steal his keys/password/whatever, or shoot everyone and loot their dead bodies to advance further. The fact you could ask Vance about six different things when you meet him doesn't give the game any more options as to how you actually complete the quest.

there is also the fact that companions will like or dislike you reacting in a certain way e.g if you pick the sarcastic or negative reply you may piss off some of your companions There are times when only 1 or 2 dialogue choices are needed ("yes" or "no") and there are times when more are needed (asking for more information about something) with always having [I]exactly[/I] 4 options it then becomes in the first case "yes" "no" "sarcastic" "why?" and in the second you're limited to three questions, or some multiple of it if theres brancing dialogue paths

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49307821]To be honest the amount of options you have to solve a quest isn't tied to dialogue but to how the quest is built. Bethesda has never given as many options regarding quest completion as Obsidian which is deplorable but it's not linked to dialogue having four or six or ten options.[/QUOTE] Giving you more choices and flavour in dialogue can lead to some fun or interesting backstory that helps you in the resolution of the quest though. The extended dialogue gives you enough information about Vault 22, Hildern and Angela Williams/Keely to help you pick your decision not only in that quest but for the Sharecroppers Farm one too. Just having a "Go to vault 22 pick some data for me" and "sarcastic - yes - no - vault 22?" option would greatly detract from this

[QUOTE=I am Error;49307809]... Also if you go that route no story is compelling. They all boil down to something simple and dull, which is why people tend to not do that.[/QUOTE] That's the exact reason I often find most people that complain about radiant quests to be somewhat un-thoughful in their argument. Really, no mater how you spin in, any type of quest that was build for game longevity, and doesn't have the human touch, will always boil down to either get item, kill guy, clear area, or some combination of the three. Come to think of it, one could argue that most actual quests are simply fancy versions of that. Sure beth could make them so you don't at least feel like that's all you're doing, but in reality that is all you'll be doing. :v:

[QUOTE=bananarBanana;49307823]there is also the fact that companions will like or dislike you reacting in a certain way e.g if you pick the sarcastic or negative reply you may piss off some of your companions There are times when only 1 or 2 dialogue choices are needed ("yes" or "no") and there are times when more are needed (asking for more information about something) with always having [I]exactly[/I] 4 options it then becomes in the first case "yes" "no" "sarcastic" "why?" and in the second you're limited to three questions, or some multiple of it if theres brancing dialogue paths[/QUOTE] When only two options are needed (yes/no) the two other options are either a slightly more polite no, and asking whoever you're talking to what they would do which I thought was a really nice feature to have in a game like this. Being able to ask what other people would do and hear their advice was pretty neat imho.

honestly fallout 4 has just made me really hopeful that they'll get the guys from obsidian or somewhere else to come back and expand on the base that bethesda has made like obsidian did with NV The game is there, it just needs a better overarcing story to tie it all together, and some minor improvements to gameplay here and there (which could be done in dlc)