Fallout V23: "I got another thread that needs your help." - Games

[QUOTE=Tuskin;49253981]So this happened [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_wNmRI0AzI&feature=youtu.be[/media][/QUOTE] It's like a fucking fast clock going backwards. Maybe it's a time machine.

Some people liked the percentage based checks from previous games and 3 and some people (me included) like the hard stat requirement checks from NV. Both sides have good arguments. My argument for prefering hard checks is because it really means when you character can do something or not, and that's it. If i encounter a very hard lock in the beginning of the game i'm just going to accept that i can't pick it and move on with my life, making a note to come back later. I'm just not good enough for it yet and i need to accept this, no ifs and buts, and that's fine. Maybe that door was a shortcut to end a quest way faster and without it i have to circle around and fight through a bunch of monsters to get to the goal, fine, it's my loss for not being a good lockpicker. I can accept and respect that. Percentage based checks completely ruin this because you can still pick the door even when you're a bumbling idiot with 1 lockpick skill trying to open the door with soap or something like that. Just try enough times and it will open. And if you know that it would save you the time from walking around the entire place, you're going to savescum and pick it. There's nothing stopping you from it so why the hell not? Surely this tells a lot about the players too, but when you have a chance of skipping through stuff or getting better rewards regardless of your merit in doing so, you're going to try it. It's only natural. But when the game outright tells you "this lock is too difficult to you and you won't pick it, this medicine surgery is too advanced for you and if you try something you will only make things worse", you know that you can't and you have to accept it, because that's the way you made your character. I can use amazing guns and hack computers like they're nothing, but i'm not a good doctor or have no lockpicking skills and i have to live with my decisions when i made my character. For modern gaming this is awful because players are god characters that can do everything everytime, but it wasn't like that before and i liked it. It's still a very open debate which i refuse to call any side wrong or dumb though. Both arguments have strong points in their favour.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49254067]pick the door even when you're a bumbling idiot with 1 lockpick skill trying to open the door with soap or something like that. [/QUOTE] [Critical Success!] You pick the door open with a bucket. Bucket stays in your inventory. That would actually make a decent perk, and completely in line with Fallout tradition of crazy perks.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49254084]percentage checks are shit, it makes you feel cheated when you fail the check and you're basically forced to just quicksave before the choice to keep rolling the dice until you win[/QUOTE] Yes exactly. I recall it being different in New Vegas? Your speech level had to be high enough I think. Which I think makes a lot more sense and isn't as much bullshit as percentage checks.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49254084]percentage checks are shit, it makes you feel cheated when you fail the check and you're basically forced to just quicksave before the choice to keep rolling the dice until you win[/QUOTE] This is another bad point for percentage based skill checks that i forgot to add, too. I mean, you spend the entire game investing in your lockpick skill, you even have lockpick equipment, but there's still a random chance that you will goof up (when having a high lockpick skill means that you know how to freaking do this thing - looking at you Fallout 2) and the lock will be jammed. This is bullshit and doesn't reward you accordingly when you specialized your character in something. If i'm a good enough doctor i can diagnose when people are suffering from jet addiction - there's no random chance i'll think he's just tired and let it slide. In my opinion a compromise would be better: there's this lock which is lvl50 and if you have less than 50 lockpick you might still try to lockpick it in the minigame but it will be freaking tough and you will probably fail. but if you have lockpick 50 or more, you will open it - you know how to do it, that's what the skill means.

[QUOTE=war_man333;49254139]Yes exactly. I recall it being different in New Vegas? Your speech level had to be high enough I think. Which I think makes a lot more sense and isn't as much bullshit as percentage checks.[/QUOTE] Yup. And mentats had a reason to exist as a result, for INT checks, non-existent in Fo4.

[QUOTE=gudman;49254168]Yup. And mentats had a reason to exist as a result, for INT checks, non-existent in Fo4.[/QUOTE] Not only mentats but all the magazines and the other drugs and equipment that raised several stats and skills. With the right perks and equips you don't even need to max any skill more than 75 because you can still get to 100 using drugs and equips anyway People complaining about NV checks never bothered to check how many options they gave you to bypass it if you were smart enough. But i guess being smart is too much to ask for gamers these days.

[QUOTE=gudman;49254168]Yup. And mentats had a reason to exist as a result, for INT checks, non-existent in Fo4.[/QUOTE] There is one part with INT checks, on the [sp]USS, where you can jury some broken parts of the ship instead of getting the parts[/sp]

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49254026]fallout: as designed by ganerumo randomly generated loot in every nook and cranny 100% voiced dialog by troy baker and laura bailey all male characters are buff white guys with charming faces all female characters are hot sexy babes dialog options are represented by a pair of lights, 1 being red and one being green, red means negative response, green means positive response everyone holds their weapon like it's a hong kong action film all dialog goes to the farthest extreme, you either say FUCK YEAH or HELL NO all inventory management and skill allocation is done via 1 button or automatically actually fuck skills just have your only skills be "gun" and "trade", with trade being an optional modifier in the options would be an amazing experience for years to come[/QUOTE] You want my honest opinion on what a good system would be ? Okay. - All loot is placed in default locations with no random shit. You know where to go to get the death-dealing super strong fuck-your shit explosive minigun ? You go to get it right away. - All weapons have base damage which increases with a specific proficiency perk. However, some stronger weapons have a proficiency cap, meaning they will be less effective if you don't have the perk at the right level. - No level caps on perks. You can min max like a crazy motherfucker if you want to. - Three voice actors for male characters, three voice actors for female characters, and an option for just no voices. Each speech option must come with at least one fail state, where the character instead mumbles and botches the line super hard. - Based on your SPECIAL and perk selections, your animations are slightly faster for things like unholstering and holstering your weapon, reloading it, crouching and getting up, and jumping. This isn't just a faster animation but a proper different animation based on it. - All weapons (melee, guns, everything) have an "exhausted" state where the player gradually swings slower and takes longer to aim as you keep using them in a single fight. This effect goes away after a certain period of time that gets smaller with better endurance. - You get better chances at different speech checks based on whether or not you wear power armor and whether or not your weapon is holstered. Nice strawman though

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49254156] In my opinion a compromise would be better: there's this lock which is lvl50 and if you have less than 50 lockpick you might still try to lockpick it in the minigame but it will be freaking tough and you will probably fail. but if you have lockpick 50 or more, you will open it - you know how to do it, that's what the skill means.[/QUOTE] Better yet - if you don't have enough, let RNG decide. You have no idea what you're doing with it, so no minigame - you either try to pick the lock with a teddy bear you found in a nearby toilet (what's Bethesda designers' obsession with putting stuff in toilets anyway?) or you luck out and do something properly, but again, you don't know what. [editline]5th December 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Max;49254183]There is one part with INT checks, on the [sp]USS, where you can jury some broken parts of the ship instead of getting the parts[/sp][/QUOTE] Oh yeah, that one part. I almost forgot about it. I liked how there's "[repair]" there somewhere, as if it was a skill or a perk.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49253957]You don't need charisma to coerce people though. You need strength. Or big, mean guns. The thug bouncer isn't blocking you from entering the party because his charisma is off the charts. He's blocking you because he would kick your ass. It's explained by the game but the explanation is shallow. That's not an acceptable excuse. example: [url]http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Terrifying_Presence[/url] you don't need charisma for Terrifying Presence. You just need speech. Which is boosted by but not reliant on Charisma to work.[/QUOTE] Intimidation is absoloutely the domain of charisma. People will just walk right past a bouncer with no charisma, or things will get needlessly physical. Charisma includes your ability to project your authority and to make others listen to you. Speech not being reliant on Charisma is one of the dumbest things about New Vegas. Charisma is absolutely worthless in that game and it's awful.

[QUOTE=gudman;49254204]Better yet - if you don't have enough, let RNG decide. You have no idea what you're doing with it, so no minigame - you either try to pick the lock with a teddy bear you found in a nearby toilet (what's Bethesda designers' obsession with putting stuff in toilets anyway?) or you luck out and do something properly, but again, you don't know what.[/QUOTE] Sure, i don't mind. Make it up to chance, but make it really difficult so savescumming seems more like "i'm wasting 10 hours of my life trying to pick this lock i can't" so you don't detract from people that actually invested in the skill And when people invested on the skill, they pass. Don't make this a random chance. I could have been pumping my guns and speech skills to this point in the game but i didnt because i wanted 50 lockpick to open this door. So don't stop me! If it's a simple lock and i have more than average lockpicking knowledge, i should be able to open it. This is what rpgs are all about, giving weight to your choices. If i needed to convince someone to open this door for me i wouldn't, because instead of putting points in speech i put them all in lockpick, and that's fine. I don't feel cheated, i don't feel betrayed, that was the path i chose. And i'm happy for having the freedom to choose my path and be able or not to get rewards for it. I want my choices to be significant, dammit. That's why i'm playing a RPG and not a FPS.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49253343]Literally it was "If you're going to say the dialogue system did not objectively make the game worse, I think you're playing the wrong game. By the way, has ANYONE SEEN MY BABY DARLING SHAUN, WHERE IN THE GOD DAMN IS HE, YOU TOOK HIM DIDNT YOU?" It limited dialogue options. It limited the story. It limited your character. In what roleplaying game, are those good things? [editline]5th December 2015[/editline] I said it was objectively worse, not that it had to annoy you. Jesus, I hate how "literally" has been shifted to been the entire opposite.[/QUOTE] "objective" you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. the objective was to have a voiced protagonist, and a dialogue wheel akin to that of mass effect and other games. i'd say that was an objective success. git rekt m8. furthermore, fallout has always been an arpg series, you can still roleplay in fallout 4 you twat. if we really want to be technical here, the only "role-playing games" are tabletop stuff like dungeons & dragons. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming / shitposting" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Glent;49254243]Intimidation is absoloutely the domain of charisma. People will just walk right past a bouncer with no charisma, or things will get needlessly physical. Charisma includes your ability to project your authority and to make others listen to you. Speech not being reliant on Charisma is one of the dumbest things about New Vegas. Charisma is absolutely worthless in that game and it's awful.[/QUOTE] Intimidation is a feat of strength. Thinking it's tied to charisma somehow is something Skyrim players would think because all the persuasion stuff were tied to the same path there when they're clearly not. Fallout 1 and 2 disproved that by having your dumb 1 INT 1 CHA character still being able to intimidate people by his raw strength alone and that makes sense. Speech not being reliant on Charisma is not a New Vegas thing so if you want to blame a game for it, blame all of them. Charisma was always a dump stat since F1 But New Vegas added the nerve mechanic so you're wrong, while charisma is still useless, new vegas still is the game that gave it more reason than any of the others before. So i don't really get you rant. I agree with you that Charisma was useless and speech should be more tied to it, but i disagree when you want to blame New Vegas for it when they activelly tried to improve it

[QUOTE=Pops;49254285]"objective" you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. the objective was to have a voiced protagonist, and a dialogue wheel akin to that of mass effect and other games. i'd say that was an objective success. git rekt m8. furthermore, fallout has always been an arpg series, you can still roleplay in fallout 4 you twat. if we really want to be technical here, the only "role-playing games" are tabletop stuff like dungeons & dragons.[/QUOTE] i've never read a post that has been more right when it comes to the dialogue complaints

[QUOTE=Glent;49254243] Speech not being reliant on Charisma is one of the dumbest things about New Vegas. Charisma is absolutely worthless in that game and it's awful.[/QUOTE] No one ever said that the old system was perfect. It was outdated and functioned poorly in a modern game. New system, however, isn't much better, and in places it's just carbon-copy of the old one with fancier exterior - instead of skills you have perks now, and they function exactly the same. I actually find it pretty interesting that Bethesda didn't split Speech into perks with ranks - they did it with everything else.

[QUOTE=Pops;49254285]"objective" you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. the objective was to have a voiced protagonist, and a dialogue wheel akin to that of mass effect and other games. i'd say that was an objective success. git rekt m8. furthermore, fallout has always been an arpg series, you can still roleplay in fallout 4 you twat. if we really want to be technical here, the only "role-playing games" are tabletop stuff like dungeons & dragons.[/QUOTE] There's a very big difference between "objective" and "objectively".

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;49253306]I didn't think the voiced dialogue made the game objectively worse. It didn't make me dislike the game at any point. You assuming I [I]should[/I] dislike the system because [I]you[/I] disliked it is asinine.[/QUOTE] It does make it objectively worse because I don't know what the fuck I'm saying and I have to quicksave before every conversation because what I'm thinking I'll say doesn't match up with what I actually say.

[QUOTE=Max;49254183]There is one part with INT checks, on the [sp]USS, where you can jury some broken parts of the ship instead of getting the parts[/sp][/QUOTE] ya but literally one of the quests is "hey i have the replacement parts over there...or you can just repair it yourself if you want i guess...." its really more of a literal intelligence check when you have to simply open a chest and pull out the replacement parts instead of running around in circles hoping you're smart enough to push buttons

[QUOTE=gk99;49254327]It does make it objectively worse because I don't know what the fuck I'm saying and I have to quicksave before every conversation because what I'm thinking I'll say doesn't match up with what I actually say.[/QUOTE] That's not because of voiced dialogue though, that's just because of shortening the lines to a single word. Completely different problem.

[QUOTE=Ruh-roh;49254289]Intimidation is a feat of strength. Thinking it's tied to charisma somehow is something Skyrim players would think because all the persuasion stuff were tied to the same path there when they're clearly not. Fallout 1 and 2 disproved that by having your dumb 1 INT 1 CHA character still being able to intimidate people by his raw strength alone and that makes sense. Speech not being reliant on Charisma is not a New Vegas thing so if you want to blame a game for it, blame all of them. Charisma was always a dump stat since F1 But New Vegas added the nerve mechanic so you're wrong, while charisma is still useless, new vegas still is the game that gave it more reason than any of the others before. So i don't really get you rant. I agree with you that Charisma was useless and speech should be more tied to it, but i disagree when you want to blame New Vegas for it when they activelly tried to improve it[/QUOTE] If you've played the pre-Bethesda fallout games then you know this is wrong. Charisma innately affects your initial NPC reaction and the number of companions you can have in FO1 and FO2. In tactics, it also affects your promotion rate. In both cases, it affects more than it did in New Vegas, where it only affects Companion Nerve and qualification for two perks. The perks it affects are also much more useful in FO1, 2 and Tactics. [QUOTE=gudman;49254305]No one ever said that the old system was perfect. It was outdated and functioned poorly in a modern game. New system, however, isn't much better, and in places it's just carbon-copy of the old one with fancier exterior - instead of skills you have perks now, and they function exactly the same. I actually find it pretty interesting that Bethesda didn't split Speech into perks with ranks - they did it with everything else.[/QUOTE] Please keep in mind context of original discussion - he's saying that Charisma not being a prerequisite for Terrifying Presence in NV was a good thing (and also using this as an arguement for why intimidation shouldn't be based on Charisma), that's what I am debating against. I'm not saying that FO4's system is better than NV's system.

[QUOTE=gk99;49254327]It does make it objectively worse because I don't know what the fuck I'm saying and I have to quicksave before every conversation because what I'm thinking I'll say doesn't match up with what I actually say.[/QUOTE] I didn't mind because the substance of the line is more important to me than the form.

[QUOTE=gk99;49254327]It does make it objectively worse because I don't know what the fuck I'm saying and I have to quicksave before every conversation because what I'm thinking I'll say doesn't match up with what I actually say.[/QUOTE] I think he's referring to the voiced dialogue, not the dialog choices, which I believe he has said that he would of preferred a different system.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;49254354]voiced dialog sucks because it takes a large part of the budget and provides zero immersion or really anything of substance to the average player no one gave a shit about the lack of it in all previous bethesda games, the fact that it is a major talking point this time around proves that a majority of people are aware it is a detriment on the rest of the system[/QUOTE] voiced characters weren't bad so much as it limited the way you can play the game, i mean if you have to record 1000 lines just to play the game 1 way, then you have to add in all the permutations for doing it every other way possible + the obscure methods that came from perks in previous games

[QUOTE=Pops;49254285] the objective was to have a voiced protagonist, and a dialogue wheel akin to that of mass effect and other games. i'd say that was an objective success[/QUOTE] If you really want to put it like that, then it's an [b]objective[/b] failure because you're playing as a brick with zero personality, unlike Shepard, Jensen and Geralt from Mass Effect and other games. Your character has no opinion, isn't interested in how the world works, doesn't ask questions and is explicitly prohibited by the game mechanics from having defining characteristics unlike their counterparts from Mass Effect and other games.

I've always thought it would be neat if charisma affected the likelihood of being attacked unprovoked. If you radiate confidence and look like you really belong (10 CHR), you might be able to just waltz right through hostile territory without much trouble, and on the flip side if people can't stand the sight of you (1 CHR), you'll get picked on a lot more even in normally peaceful areas, maybe even stolen from. It could also affect your ability to lie or exaggerate, so you can bluff (% chance based on CHR) to pass some dialog checks you otherwise wouldn't be able to. You can flatter to make people more likely to see you positively (and maybe give you things or help you out), you can bully to snuff a friendly or even hostile NPC's confidence (which might make others turn on them or make them flee altogether), the list goes on and on. Charisma could be such a cool stat. [editline]t[/editline] Walking into a Raider camp with 8 CHR: Raider: " HeyheyHEY! Where do you think YOU'RE going? You don't look familiar. " > [ FLATTER ] No need for a shakedown. Your talents could be put to better work than a bouncer, pal. Raider: " What? You... You think so? Nobody's ever said... Y'know you seem okay, I'll vouch for ya. Don't touch my shit and we'll be fine, alright? " > [ BLUFF ] Wow, are you really that thick? You really don't remember me? Raider: " Whoa whoa chill. I just got off a jet high and I'm still kinda buzzin'. Didn't recognize you at first, just gimme a bit to cool down. " > [ BULLY ] Nice face. Would look better with half of it missing. <draw weapon> Raider: "Oh SHIT! Hey hey you made your point, I'll back off! " <raider is demoralized and will avoid you> All three render the whole camp non-hostile.

[QUOTE=Glent;49254359] Please keep in mind context of original discussion - he's saying that Charisma not being a prerequisite for Terrifying Presence in NV was a good thing (and also using this as an arguement for why intimidation shouldn't be based on Charisma), that's what I am debating against. I'm not saying that FO4's system is better than NV's system.[/QUOTE] Yeah, actually I just skipped past the quote, my bad. [QUOTE=Everything;49254388]I've always thought it would be neat if charisma affected the likelihood of enemies attacking you unprovoked. If you radiate confidence and look like you really belong (10 CHR), you might be able to just waltz right through hostile territory without much trouble, and on the flip side if people can't stand the sight of you (1 CHR), you'll get picked on a lot more, maybe even stolen from. It could also affect your ability to lie or exaggerate, so you can bluff (% chance based on CHR) to pass some dialog checks you otherwise wouldn't be able to. You can flatter to make people more likely to see you positively (and maybe give you things or help you out), you can bully to snuff a friendly or even hostile NPC's confidence (which might make others turn on them or make them flee altogether), the list goes on and on. Charisma could be such a cool stat.[/QUOTE] All that wasted opportunity makes me want to cry. Like, really, you can do so much with it, and some of it has already been realized before...

[QUOTE=Glent;49254359]If you've played the pre-Bethesda fallout games then you know this is wrong. Charisma innately affects your initial NPC reaction and the number of companions you can have in FO1 and FO2. In tactics, it also affects your promotion rate. In both cases, it affects more than it did in New Vegas, where it only affects Companion Nerve and qualification for two perks. The perks it affects are also much more useful in FO1, 2 and Tactics.[/QUOTE] You're purposefully downplaying the importance of Nerve, specially in Hardcore mode which was a staple from NV. The companion number is irrelevant because you can have two regardless in NV. Sure, this makes it seems that charisma was nerfed in FNV because of it, but when you take into consideration that 2 companions with several nerve bonuses are way better than 5 meatshield companions like miria, lenny and myron, you know they did it better in FNV. Tactics is a different case, i was just using the main games into consideration but sure, i agree with you. Promotion rate is useful as heck. Still not better than giving nerve bonuses to ED-E and Boone and never having to kill anything again if you don't want to.

[url=http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4472/?]This mod would be better without the fucking Dust Storm, where the shit is the dust coming from?[/url]

[QUOTE=GHOST!!!!;49254468][url=http://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4472/?]This mod would be better without the fucking Dust Storm, where the shit is the dust coming from?[/url][/QUOTE] idk, the billions of acres of undeveloped wasteland????