Undertale megathread v5 - An award-winning RPG where nobody has to get SPOILERS. YES, that STILL inc
4,993 replies, posted
Maybe for you, but I still want to save [sp]Asriel[/sp] for real this time. Sure, [sp]we "saved" him at the end of True Pacifist, but it rings hollow when he's gonna be forced back to being Flowey and eventually begin that grim cycle all over again now that our determination has left the building.[/sp]
[sp]So in the end, our act of "saving" him was undone, or was momentary at best, and now the Underground is open there isn't much stopping him from becoming Not-Giygas-For-Copyright-Reasons and bringing chaos upon the world. His memories of our friendship might hold him back for a time, but without compassion holding him back he could easily start to "spread his roots" throughout the Overworld.[/sp]
[QUOTE=ironman17;49680894]Maybe for you, but I still want to save [sp]Asriel[/sp] for real this time. Sure, [sp]we "saved" him at the end of True Pacifist, but it rings hollow when he's gonna be forced back to being Flowey and eventually begin that grim cycle all over again now that our determination has left the building.[/sp]
[sp]So in the end, our act of "saving" him was undone, or was momentary at best, and now the Underground is open there isn't much stopping him from becoming Not-Giygas-For-Copyright-Reasons and bringing chaos upon the world. His memories of our friendship might hold him back for a time, but without compassion holding him back he could easily start to "spread his roots" throughout the Overworld.[/sp][/QUOTE]
We've been over this before, [sp]Asriel is already dead, you can't save a corpse. But you can help it redeem itself[/sp]
I'm glad you can't [sp]save Asriel[/sp]. I like some bitter with my sweet.
It's a stronger story for it, IMO.
[QUOTE=ironman17;49680894]Maybe for you, but I still want to save [sp]Asriel[/sp] for real this time. Sure, [sp]we "saved" him at the end of True Pacifist, but it rings hollow when he's gonna be forced back to being Flowey and eventually begin that grim cycle all over again now that our determination has left the building.[/sp]
[sp]So in the end, our act of "saving" him was undone, or was momentary at best, and now the Underground is open there isn't much stopping him from becoming Not-Giygas-For-Copyright-Reasons and bringing chaos upon the world. His memories of our friendship might hold him back for a time, but without compassion holding him back he could easily start to "spread his roots" throughout the Overworld.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I thought earlier that Flowey either wanted to be put out of his misery (kill or be killed) or actually saved (I'm so alone...) and that either option would be a good, honest ending for him. Death is sad but it brings closure, hell I even thought it would be appropriate for Asgore when I first played.
Looking at the genocide ending again, you find out when he begs you to not to kill him that he doesn't want to die; he just wants to be saved from eternity as a flower. And like someone said earlier, he saves humanity by killing Asgore and preventing you from getting the human souls. There's still a good little kid in there begging for help.[/sp]
[sp]TOBY BLS ITS NOT FAIR[/sp]
[QUOTE=red_pharoah;49681000]We've been over this before, [sp]Asriel is already dead, you can't save a corpse. But you can help it redeem itself[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]"Dead". His consciousness is still around so I'd say he's alive, just in different "vessel".
Alphys' lab made this pretty clear. Redemption doesn't mean anything either, even Asriel knows he'll fade back into the darkness full of hate, it can't be helped.[/sp]
The bitterness should come from what you'd need to go through to save them both. The gruelling tasks that tax both the player and their "puppet", doing some twisted stuff all for the sake of one left behind. And hell, at the end [sp]they could be bitter in their own way; past Asriel being disgusted with what you did in order to wind time all the way back to that fateful day to grab his soul, and Flowey wondering why you wasted your time trying to give him a heart when all he needed was the closure you gave him. Plus, both of them could wonder whether you really did it for them, or if you did it to get the happy ending you felt to be a little bit too bitter for your tastes.
You do all of that work for them, and despite saving the original prince and the flowery replicant, giving both of them a second chance at life, they both find it hard to look at you. Congratulations, you saved Asriel AND Flowey, but look at what you had to do to make it happen.[/sp] THAT would be a bittersweet pill to swallow, but it'd give me true closure to that arc.
[QUOTE=ironman17;49681188]The bitterness should come from what you'd need to go through to save them both. The gruelling tasks that tax both the player and their "puppet", doing some twisted stuff all for the sake of one left behind. And hell, at the end [sp]they could be bitter in their own way; past Asriel being disgusted with what you did in order to wind time all the way back to that fateful day to grab his soul, and Flowey wondering why you wasted your time trying to give him a heart when all he needed was the closure you gave him.[/sp]
[sp]You do all of that work for them, and despite saving the original prince and the flowery replicant, giving both of them a second chance at life, they both find it hard to look at you. Congratulations, you saved Asriel AND Flowey, but look at what you had to do to make it happen.[/sp] THAT would be a bittersweet pill to swallow.[/QUOTE]
[sp]But Flowey is Asriel. If you went back and saved Asriel Flowey would never exist in the first place. Right?
Because his essence would never become part of the butter cup flower.[/sp]
[QUOTE=IrishBandit;49680844]I think that the only plot thread that really needs any more development is [sp]Gaster.[/sp][/QUOTE]
It's one of those things that's best kept secret
[QUOTE=ironman17;49681188]The bitterness should come from what you'd need to go through to save them both. The gruelling tasks that tax both the player and their "puppet", doing some twisted stuff all for the sake of one left behind. And hell, at the end [sp]they could be bitter in their own way; past Asriel being disgusted with what you did in order to wind time all the way back to that fateful day to grab his soul, and Flowey wondering why you wasted your time trying to give him a heart when all he needed was the closure you gave him. Plus, both of them could wonder whether you really did it for them, or if you did it to get the happy ending you felt to be a little bit too bitter for your tastes.
You do all of that work for them, and despite saving the original prince and the flowery replicant, giving both of them a second chance at life, they both find it hard to look at you. Congratulations, you saved Asriel AND Flowey, but look at what you had to do to make it happen.[/sp] THAT would be a bittersweet pill to swallow, but it'd give me true closure to that arc.[/QUOTE]
its easy to just go 'it should be like this' but from a writing and game development standpoint, setting that up takes a ton of time to not only make right, but also to give it the weight and time it needs to become impactful.
realistically, how long would have it extended the game to [sp]add a whole new section where you do nondescript 'terrible' things to save Asriel[/sp]? It would have probably not only doubled the game's length but make the plot 10x more convoluted and also would have forced a lot of the game's elements to overstay their welcome more than they already do at points.
The entire reason everyone [sp]loves Asriel so much is not only because of how purely innocent he is at the core, but also because you were far too late to do anything to stop his tragic tale from happening, and you get to witness what happens when purity is corrupted.[/sp]
if we change it to your suggestion, [sp]a lot of what makes Asriel so likable would be lost, especially when he comes back and begins to judge you for your sins, despite him unabashedly loving a person who is practically a demon.[/sp]
besides, [sp] everyone believes that Asriel/Flowey will somehow fall back into the same pit they did before, but the only reason he became a murderer is because he ran out of everything else to do. Now that he has the entire world at large to explore aswell as Frisk's lesson firmly lodged in his memory, its more than likely he wont resort to trying to murder everything again, at least not for several hundred years, and who knows what can happen in that time frame.[/sp]
[QUOTE=LSK;49681203][sp]But Flowey is Asriel. If you went back and saved Asriel Flowey would never exist in the first place. Right?
Because his essence would never become part of the butter cup flower.[/sp][/QUOTE]
pet peeve time: [sp]I am pretty sure that golden flowers are not the same thing as buttercups
buttercups are tiny little things and they only have five petals[/sp]
[QUOTE=LSK;49681203][sp]But Flowey is Asriel. If you went back and saved Asriel Flowey would never exist in the first place. Right?
Because his essence would never become part of the butter cup flower.[/sp][/QUOTE]
The way I was thinking was that [sp]the soul and the essence were two different things. Asriel's dust, what remained of his body, carried his essence and became a part of the first flower, while his soul may have persisted for a while after death before disappearing. Taking the soul just after death wouldn't have affected the dust, and Frisk would struggle their way back to the present with a wailing goatkid soul in tow, leaving that first flower to stew in that dust, be nabbed by Alphys, and get injected with determination to form the soulvessel we know to be Flowey.
Upon returning to the present, Frisk would track down Flowey, after first calming down the soul of Asriel, and entice Flowey to take the soul, or trick him into taking it if need be, allowing Flowey to feel compassion (to a degree, if not fully), and giving Asriel a "vessel" to keep him from dissipating.[/sp]
[QUOTE=ntzu;49681241]its easy to just go 'it should be like this' but from a writing and game development standpoint, setting that up takes a ton of time to not only make right, but also to give it the weight and time it needs to become impactful.
realistically, how long would have it extended the game to [sp]add a whole new section where you do nondescript 'terrible' things to save Asriel[/sp]? It would have probably not only doubled the game's length but make the plot 10x more convoluted and also would have forced a lot of the game's elements to overstay their welcome more than they already do at points.
The entire reason everyone [sp]loves Asriel so much is not only because of how purely innocent he is at the core, but also because you were far too late to do anything to stop his tragic tale from happening, and you get to witness what happens when purity is corrupted.[/sp]
if we change it to your suggestion, [sp]a lot of what makes Asriel so likable would be lost, especially when he comes back and begins to judge you for your sins, despite him unabashedly loving a person who is practically a demon.[/sp]
besides, [sp] everyone believes that Asriel/Flowey will somehow fall back into the same pit they did before, but the only reason he became a murderer is because he ran out of everything else to do. Now that he has the entire world at large to explore aswell as Frisk's lesson firmly lodged in his memory, its more than likely he wont resort to trying to murder everything again, at least not for several hundred years, and who knows what can happen in that time frame.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Gotta agree. [sp]You can't save everyone, that's life. It would also take away a LOT of the emotional impact too. If there's one thing I would never change about Undertale it's the end, as bittersweet as it is that's the moment that brought everything together for me.
You just have to deal with the what ifs.[/sp]
[sp]The Amalgamates have it pretty bad too if you ask me, I think it was kind of fucked up that they DIDN'T get to die. They're a pretty big mystery though we don't know much about them, but I don't see how they (or their families) could be content with that. Seems like a living hell, I wonder if they can even die at all or if they're forced to "live" forever like that.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Yahnich;49681270]id be ok if it'd be super fuckin hard to actually [sp]save asriel, like requiring multiple resets without doing a true reset or smth but overall yeah it's probably better if we can't save him[/sp][/QUOTE]
That's what I was getting at, that by the time you'd set up the right chain of events across the many resets, [sp]with all the "what if I gave this item to Sans" and "what if I told Alphys that I knew about her experiments long before True Lab" and "do I really have to destroy Papyrus' innocence to make him remember his original timeline, even if it makes him have a nervous breakdown?"[/sp] and whatnot, you'd probably be tired of all the repetition and wonder why you've spent so much time on this little project, when you could have moved on and started something else.
You'd be wondering why these new puzzles are so frustrating, why you have to go right back to the Ruins every time you do a reset, why the dog doesn't throw you a goddamn bone, and maybe at one point wonder whether the end result will be worth all of this busywork and bullshit. All of this hard work, will it truly pay off? That's what I imagine it could be like, even if it's a lot of work to earn your final closure. Even though you could easily just stop at any time and say "it's probably not even worth it at this point", with your determination finally having reached its limit.
[QUOTE=ironman17;49681342]That's what I was getting at, that by the time you'd set up the right chain of events across the many resets, [sp]with all the "what if I gave this item to Sans" and "what if I told Alphys that I knew about her experiments long before True Lab" and "do I really have to destroy Papyrus' innocence to make him remember his original timeline, even if it makes him have a nervous breakdown?"[/sp] and whatnot, you'd probably be tired of all the repetition and wonder why you've spent so much time on this little project, when you could have moved on and started something else.
You'd be wondering why these new puzzles are so frustrating, why you have to go right back to the Ruins every time you do a reset, why the dog doesn't throw you a goddamn bone, and maybe at one point wonder whether the end result will be worth all of this busywork and bullshit. All of this hard work, will it truly pay off? That's what I imagine it could be like, even if it's a lot of work to earn your final closure. Even though you could easily just stop at any time and say "it's probably not even worth it at this point", with your determination finally having reached its limit.[/QUOTE]
Some stories just need that bite, it's what separates them from everything else, it's what makes them great.
What if To the Moon or TT's The Walking Dead didn't have their bittersweet endings? They wouldn't be nearly as great as they are now IMO. It's the lingering urge of wanting that happy ending so badly that leaves an impression on you, even though you know it will never happen. That's why they're unforgettable, they don't give you a happy ending just for the sake of it, they do what's best for the narrative as a whole.
[QUOTE=LSK;49681310][sp]The Amalgamates have it pretty bad too if you ask me, I think it was kind of fucked up that they DIDN'T get to die. They're a pretty big mystery though we don't know much about them, but I don't see how they (or their families) could be content with that. Seems like a living hell, I wonder if they can even die at all or if they're forced to "live" forever like that.[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]The families in the True Pacifist ending seem pretty happy that their family members at least came back, though I'd imagine it would be absolute hell to be one of those, and I'm sure the families will be having nightmares for the rest of their lives.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Gunzers6;49681427][sp]The families in the True Pacifist ending seem pretty happy that their family members at least came back, though I'd imagine it would be absolute hell to be one of those, and I'm sure the families will be having nightmares for the rest of their lives.[/sp][/QUOTE]
I thought that was a little strange honestly, it's the one thing that seemed out of place and didn't make sense to me [sp]after everything got all serious anyways.[/sp]
[QUOTE=LSK;49681310][sp]The Amalgamates have it pretty bad too if you ask me, I think it was kind of fucked up that they DIDN'T get to die. They're a pretty big mystery though we don't know much about them, but I don't see how they (or their families) could be content with that. Seems like a living hell, I wonder if they can even die at all or if they're forced to "live" forever like that.[/sp][/QUOTE]
I assume that [sp]their determination will wear off eventually. Even Undyne with her natural determination wasn't able to keep herself alive in a neutral run. Obviously she doesn't have as much as the Amalgamates but she has enough to transform after a very lethal hit in a Genocide run.[/sp]
As for [sp]how the families are okay with their relatives being fused together, IDK. I guess the families are just happy to see their relatives again after thinking they were dead after who knows how long.[/sp]
[QUOTE=ironman17;49681342]That's what I was getting at, that by the time you'd set up the right chain of events across the many resets, [sp]with all the "what if I gave this item to Sans" and "what if I told Alphys that I knew about her experiments long before True Lab" and "do I really have to destroy Papyrus' innocence to make him remember his original timeline, even if it makes him have a nervous breakdown?"[/sp] and whatnot, you'd probably be tired of all the repetition and wonder why you've spent so much time on this little project, when you could have moved on and started something else.
You'd be wondering why these new puzzles are so frustrating, why you have to go right back to the Ruins every time you do a reset, why the dog doesn't throw you a goddamn bone, and maybe at one point wonder whether the end result will be worth all of this busywork and bullshit. All of this hard work, will it truly pay off? That's what I imagine it could be like, even if it's a lot of work to earn your final closure. Even though you could easily just stop at any time and say "it's probably not even worth it at this point", with your determination finally having reached its limit.[/QUOTE]
Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to.
You could say the same of Genocide. You could kill everybody, but you don't [U]have[/U] to. And maybe you could save [sp]Asriel[/sp] for real, but you wouldn't [U]have[/U] to do it.
But it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, either.
Can we not delve into fanfiction type stuff of "this is how we can do x"? We all have things we'd like to change or added but how its done, if it ever gets done, is decided by Toby. He's made it a point that UT is a really personal thing to him so if he ever decided to alter the storyline or endings he would be putting a lot of himself into it.
Writing the "how" part devalues the game's story even if its enticing and interesting to think about. The best thing to do would be to just wait for Toby to randomly drop obscure updates and go from there.
[QUOTE=Sift;49680467]The Ruins looking that way was totally a style choice. There was a (somewhat) complete sprite sheet done for it but went with the old look for a reason (Woah shocking facepunch exclusive here's a unused sprite)
[img]http://oi65.tinypic.com/4j8bra.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]
When you get the time, you should totally see if you could get permission to dump more some time.
I understand that it might be more effort/communication back and forth than it's worth though.
I just have a thing for[sp]detailed NES style sprite art, and that sprite really hits the spot.[/sp]
I decided to put Undertale quotes through Gizoogle.
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54123195/mom1.png[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54123195/MCUndyne.png[/img]
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54123195/mom2.png[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54123195/rapthetragictaleofourpeople.png[/img]
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/54123195/Sansquote.png[/img]
Undertale megathread v5 - An award-winning RPG where nobody has to get SPOILERS. YES, that STILL inc
