Killing Floor v8 - Come Out, Come Out Little Pigs! - Games

[QUOTE=thisguy123;49781949]The department responsible for creating graphical assets is not the same as the department responsible for balance changes and new classes. Steam already has a very comprehensive SDK for random drops and crates that is very easy to plug into, which I assume KF2 is using. As a result cosmetics are, as is often the case, a result of the art team not having anything better to do while the software developers get to work And no, before you even ask "perhaps the art team can help with the new update"... fuck off... fuck RIGHT off! The art team will do everything they can to the latest project target, when it was around the rise of the incinerate and detonate update, very few new assets were needed after the update shipped. heck the people responsible for modelling the patriarch and the people responsible for making weapon textures are two separate groups, so while Johnny was making sure the boils on Kevin's arm were the right shade of green, Susan had nothing else to do beside slap digicamo on the AA-12 and call it a day. Susan can't much around with Johnny's models else it might screw over Johnny's workflow. Conversely once Johnny is done sculpting Kevin's buttocks he can't REALLY put doshcamo on one of Susan's guns as Susan has her own project goals to follow and would rather not other people poke their noses in what she's doing. Now if while Susan was waiting for Johnny to finish up with Kevin's denim jockstrap and made a few silly camo patterns for the microwave gun and it linked to the steam SDK for item drops that let tripwire rake in a few extra pennnies, is that so much of an issue? It's efficient use of staff is what it is, rather that sit on her hands Susan can contribute to the project without meddling with other project aspects. It's NEVER a case of one person = one unit of universal labour. No doubt if tripwire though that micro-transactions would heavily impact the progress of KF2's development they would not have done it. I would wager that progress on KF2 would be as slow now, with or without the micro-transactions.[/QUOTE] I never thought of weapon skins this way, this actually clarifies a lot for me.

[QUOTE=Naught;49781976]they scheduled the console release for the end of 2015, basically saying it would be done by then.[/QUOTE] Not fair for you to make your own assumptions and then bitch when things don't meet your self imposed deadlines... sure they are late on the console release but delays happen... it happened with Xcom 2 and while it's a good game and solid a a rock in terms of core gameplay it needed some time in the oven for optimisation and bug-fixes.

[QUOTE=benzinxrm;49780649]Explain to me how Kf2 is nonfunctional and how tripwire are dishonest?[/QUOTE] the biggest issue is that tripwire takes too much time with EVERYTHING they do. you can ignore the whole 'early access done right :^)' which was extremely vague, and ended up being content updates every 4+ months. you can ignore the microtransactions. but it just feels like they dont even care about the balance of their game. how long has demo been shit, and how long ago did they say they'd buff them? like, since a month after release. but all they've done is nerf it to make it even more shit than before, and after they talked about having all this stuff ready, now they dont have jack ready and theres no way in hell its going to be out by the time sharpshooter is. they talked about new voicelines for fleshpounds and such back when the fucking firebug/demo perk got released and we haven't heard anything about that. they're treating this early access game like a completely finished product, adding these 'free content' updates extremely slowly. they didn't say shit about this from the beginning, and they keep saying little things that never come to fruition. I even remember a dev talking about how we'd get some more weapons when the game came out of beta, but that never happened. things are just so stagnant and the 'meta' is so stale because of the slowness of balancing and their boner for medic, that theres literally nothing else to talk about except those big elephants in the room, microtransactions and the boringness. you don't make a toxic community out of nothing, most of the time its the devs fault.

[QUOTE=Naught;49782039]hey're treating this early access game like a completely finished product, adding these 'free content' updates extremely slowly. they didn't say shit about this from the beginning,[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]“This is the Steam Early Access for Killing Floor 2. The game is what we consider a "polished beta" and is ready for you to play, just with a reduced set of content"[/QUOTE] Really now.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;49782012]Not fair for you to make your own assumptions and then bitch when things don't meet your self imposed deadlines... sure they are late on the console release but delays happen... it happened with Xcom 2 and while it's a good game and solid a a rock in terms of core gameplay it needed some time in the oven for optimisation and bug-fixes.[/QUOTE] "Self-imposed" by tripwire themselves, right ? It's on the steam page. They set a goal and missed it badly, people who invested in the game are going to complain. It's as simple as that. Knowing the ugly history of early access i'd rather have a hostile, whiny community than a bunch of apologists who ensure that everything is OK and they're doing their best. The latter didn't help starbound one bit.

[QUOTE=benzinxrm;49782194]Really now.[/QUOTE] uh yea, really now? what about it? when it takes 4-6 months between every patch, being called a 'free content update' it just sounds so pretentious right off the bat. oh thank you for putting a base part of the game in for free, tripwire overlords :^) its bullshit that they say it to make sure people know its free, they could just call it an update. they're doing it on purpose to make it sound bigger than it really is. [QUOTE=thisguy123;49782012]Not fair for you to make your own assumptions and then bitch when things don't meet your self imposed deadlines... sure they are late on the console release but delays happen... it happened with Xcom 2 and while it's a good game and solid a a rock in terms of core gameplay it needed some time in the oven for optimisation and bug-fixes.[/QUOTE] it wasn't imposed by me, it was imposed by tripwire themselves. they said it would be out by the end of 2015 and thats what the community expected, so no shit they'd get pissed if it was clear that half the game was missing by the end of 2015.

[QUOTE=honestfam;49782285]"Self-imposed" by tripwire themselves, right ? It's on the steam page. They set a goal and missed it badly, people who invested in the game are going to complain. It's as simple as that. Knowing the ugly history of early access i'd rather have a hostile, whiny community than a bunch of apologists who ensure that everything is OK and they're doing their best. The latter didn't help starbound one bit.[/QUOTE] But tripwire actually has a track record of supporting their games and finishing shit. [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Naught;49782325]uh yea, really now? what about it? when it takes 4-6 months between every patch, being called a 'free content update' it just sounds so pretentious right off the bat. oh thank you for putting a base part of the game in for free, tripwire overlords :^) its bullshit that they say it to make sure people know its free, they could just call it an update. they're doing it on purpose to make it sound bigger than it really is.[/QUOTE] Calling it free content update is better pr for people who aren't following Kf2 or don't have an understanding of early access, it's also what they've called every update for Red orchestra 2, even the one that fixed game optimization.

It doesn't matter if the art department is separate from the programming department and don't pull resources from each other when they do micro transaction stuff, the important thing to look at is they decided to go ahead and release inane items with annoying rarity levels like every other goddamn game. They want to charge people for that, whatever, but they should get their asses in 1st gear before they blow all their money making rainbow headbands.

[QUOTE=Naught;49782325] it wasn't imposed by me, it was imposed by tripwire themselves. they said it would be out by the end of 2015 and thats what the community expected, so no shit they'd get pissed if it was clear that half the game was missing by the end of 2015.[/QUOTE] While I was never one to allow any company to have any semblance of faith, when the steam early access description reads. [quote]This Early Access game is not complete and may or may not change further. If you are not excited to play this game in its current state, then you should wait to see if the game progresses further in development[/quote] You must accept that development may not go the way you think it might go or even the developers might think it might go. Development is never a cut and dry thing, it's impossible to predict even roughly when you might finish something or if you might run into a series of snags. One small bug can become three when you patch it can become five when you fix those. A bugfix can in and of itself be unexpectedly bugged. I will agree with you that the term "early access done right" was pretty silly, they created some kind of paradoxical vague absolute there and it meant nothing while promising everything.

[QUOTE=benzinxrm;49782329]But tripwire actually has a track record of supporting their games and finishing shit. [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] Calling it free content update is better pr for people who aren't following Kf2 or don't have an understanding of early access, it's also what they've called every update for Red orchestra 2, even the one that fixed game optimization.[/QUOTE] but when is it going to be finished? its been a year and theres still a load of things to add and its clear they probably wont even be done by the end of this year. no shit people are going to complain because of that. the balancing is awful across the board, but based on how long it takes for them to do anything, its gonna be another year before the game actually has some nice balance to it for all difficulty levels. and its not necessarily better pr at all, mainly because people should just look at the fucking steam page and see that theres no more dlc to buy, meaning that the update was free. and it doesn't make tripwire look like they're special for giving you this free content update.

If the balance is TRULY awful across the board then why can I successfully play any class and win Suicidal down? If so many classes are having trouble with hoe doesn't that mean Hoe should be tweaked? I'm not saying demo/support a great, but they're far from completely unplayable. As for PR its better than having No PR at all, and not announcing HEY NEW FREE SHIT IN THIS GAME. [editline]20th February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Jarokwa;49782364]lol at defending tripwire[/QUOTE] I guess I must be a shill, sorry for not joining the outrage circlejerk that the game isn't done when I want it to be so it'll never be done.

The "when" of it is the entire fucking point, tripwire can't just abandon a game because they're not two-man indie game developer #589, they obviously won't do that but leaving it without updates for months isn't OK. They're past their late 2015 goal, only half of it is done and very little balancing was done in-between. If you don't see that as worthy of complaints then i'm sorry to say it but you might be shilling a little bit, yeah.

They're certainly valid complaints but not requiring the level of hostility and outrage people have over them. I'd understand if the game was a broken unplayable mess but in it's current stage it simply isn't. Especially this mentality that tripwire are these terrible people that are awful liars and killed my dog, when all they're really guilty of is misjudging how long it would take them to finish their game.

im pretty sure you're exaggerating everything to the nth degree, I haven't seen any of that on here or reddit. idk about the official forums, because all official forums are garbage for every game. there just isn't anything to talk about besides the lack of updating, but its friendly discussions for the most part. and it normally starts up because theres either someone talking about hans, or someone coming back after months of not touching the game only to find out that literally nothings been done.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;49781556]I like KF2, but my favourite class from the first game still isn't done, one of the current classes is useless, the progress on content really has been very slow, and yet they are already charging for gold plated guns and fancy masks?[/QUOTE] I doubt the programmers who implemented this system were holding back progress anywhere else, the gameplay programmers are a different bunch. Content-wise most of the stuff is community made and voted on, so no development resources lost there either. I'd argue the primary thing stretching resources and delaying content is the fact that they're developing [I]two[/I] games at once: Killing Floor 2 and Rising Storm: Vietnam. They're not a large studio, but they have two games in development at the same time.

I guess you guys are right, but I still can't shake the feeling you know?. Even if it didn't actively slow development, when devs start looking for ways to cash in before the product is actually complete, it creates mistrust for their intentions.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;49782922]I guess you guys are right, but I still can't shake the feeling you know?. Even if it didn't actively slow development, when devs start looking for ways to cash in before the product is actually complete, it creates mistrust for their intentions.[/QUOTE] I doubt many people saw the update and went 'oh boy, microtransactions!' kinda like how it was for tf2 and csgo and dota and such. it may be due to the lack of popularity because of their slow development cycle that more or less forced their hand in putting this system out early. who knows.

I thought it was more disappointing that they just copied csgo's microtransaction system that takes advantage of people with gambling addictions.

Yeah I hate microtransactions that rely on RNG and gambling to get anywhere. Would have been so much better to put a little store in where you could just flat out buy items, like with the classic foster suit. The steam marketplace kinda does this but the "value" of items is decided by players so you can't get anything cool unless you want to spend a questionable amount of cash on virtual items.

You know boys, when I saw this thread had forty new posts, expected something to actually have taken place. Shame on you.

[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49783022]You know boys, when I saw this thread had forty new posts, expected something to actually have taken place. Shame on you.[/QUOTE] Hasn't this thread been like this since May? :v:

[QUOTE=ZakkShock;49783022]You know boys, when I saw this thread had forty new posts, expected something to actually have taken place. Shame on you.[/QUOTE] I also normally don't expect people to always keep posting this "I expected something" post, but here you are :v:

I think it's mostly the fact that it feels a lot more polished than most early access games, even though it's obviously missing quite a few elements (perks and maps mostly), and is in need of some rebalancing.

[QUOTE=fulgrim;49782922]I guess you guys are right, but I still can't shake the feeling you know?. Even if it didn't actively slow development, when devs start looking for ways to cash in before the product is actually complete, it creates mistrust for their intentions.[/QUOTE] Think of it this way, would you rather KF2 have insufficient funding and end up stagnating in development or forcing the devs to ask for more money or would you rather they have micro-transactions and end up with more profit? At the very least skins and the like are an incentive for devs to support games for longer and extend their lifespan by adding free gameplay content in addition to paid cosmetics. While I'm not trying to say cosmetics are a universal good thing they do have some upsides that people can reap benefits from even if they do not partake. To put it bluntly, in order for devs to make good money from micro-transactions the game needs to be good enough that people keep playing it. [editline]21st February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49786319]If you're genuinely satisfied with KF2 in it's current state and it's state throughout it's early-access life, you have a really low bar for video games.[/QUOTE] It's NEARLY as good now as KF1 was at launch... albeit we need some rebalancing and tweaking and a few extra maps/ A perk or two would be nice. Sure... the slow approach was not as well received as they thought it would be and suffered from content drought at the start but when the ship a new update at least it's well polished and the game feels less like a tech demo. Yes it could be better, it could be SO much better but as far as some early access games go it's certainly done pretty well, if each update is as good as the ones we have thus far then the final KF2 product at launch will be pretty damn good.

Can we please just redo Hans, he's just absolute balls

[QUOTE=thisguy123;49786430]Think of it this way, would you rather KF2 have insufficient funding and end up stagnating in development or forcing the devs to ask for more money or would you rather they have micro-transactions and end up with more profit? At the very least skins and the like are an incentive for devs to support games for longer and extend their lifespan by adding free gameplay content in addition to paid cosmetics. While I'm not trying to say cosmetics are a universal good thing they do have some upsides that people can reap benefits from even if they do not partake. To put it bluntly, in order for devs to make good money from micro-transactions the game needs to be good enough that people keep playing it. [/QUOTE] I've seen a few people use this excuse and I just can't understand how it can even remotely be seen as logical. Tripwire got their money when people bought the game through EA, how is it fine to you that Tripwire got their paycheck just for putting their unfinished game on EA and that microtransactions while still in EA are justified so they "don't run out of money and have the incentive to actually finish their game"? And while yes microtransactions are completely optional and don't affect the gameplay (we'll see for now, we've seen how KF1 turned out) it's guaranteed that a lot of people will still buy into it which just looks like Tripwire is trying to nickel and dime their game before it's even completed. If you say that Tripwire has problems with money (after people paid full price for the game) before the game is even complete, then maybe they manage their resources poorly, or maybe it's just plain greed who knows. I'm pretty much rambling at this point. You can agree or disagree with whatever you want, but you can't justify microtransactions so early in development without finding the idea ridiculous to some extent.

[QUOTE=Gamaz;49786797] If you say that Tripwire has problems with money (after people paid full price for the game) before the game is even complete, then maybe they [mB]anage their resources poorly[/B], or maybe it's just plain greed who knows. [/QUOTE] I doubt tripwire have problems with money but development is a very fickle thing, especially when they don't have the backing of a larger publisher it's impossible to account for exactly how much money they will need to see the game through to the end. And here's another thing, a lot of games like this these days are never actually "done" they never reach a point where development just stops because the game is "finished" they will constantly be adding, updating and working on the game as time goes by. In that sense they need a sustainable revenue stream that goes beyond just people buying the game one off. That money is finite where the development cycle of KF2 is indefinite, who knows when they will finally stop working on it? At least this way they don't have to resort to begging for money or they end up pulling a Peter Molleneux.

[QUOTE=Zeos;49786494]Can we please just redo Hans, he's just absolute balls[/QUOTE] [url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=116416[/url] [QUOTE] Something else I want to touch on today is another longer term change we are looking at (that may take some time to materialize) - a refinement pass on Hans. Beyond looking at his melee damage which we know the community has more immediate concerns about we’ve been looking at the overall battle flow and how we can improve it. This is an outline of what we are investigating: The primary change would be to allow players to interrupt the Hans healing phase potentially shortening or stopping the heal from happening. Along with this change we are looking at changing up how he chooses to engage players when he decides he wants to heal, mixing it up from a straight rush into his chosen target. Our goals here are to make players feel more invested in all stages of the combat while keeping it exciting and challenging. [/QUOTE] soon

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;49780753]they're dishonest because they oversold their ability to develop the game, in the FAQ they stated they would, under good conditions have the game be done by the end of 2015[/QUOTE] Tripwire have been doing this since the dawn of time. This is nothing new. They always finish their games, albeit a few years later than stated.

[QUOTE=Chiv;49787107][url]http://forums.tripwireinteractive.com/showthread.php?t=116416[/url] soon[/QUOTE] soon and tripwire don't go together, especially when they say themselves that its "another longer term change we are looking at (that may take some time to materialize)" meaning we might get a hans makeover in 4 or so months at the earliest.