Killing Floor v8 - Come Out, Come Out Little Pigs! - Games

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49786319]If you're genuinely satisfied with KF2 in it's current state and it's state throughout it's early-access life, you have a really low bar for video games.[/QUOTE] That's a stupid thing to say. The game isn't finished but it's certainly pretty well polished in the gameplay, weapon handling, graphics, sound, map design and characterization. But I have a 'low bar' for video games because I'm content the game is decent now and expect it to improve intime instead of impatiently tapping my foot expecting everything to be done when I want it to be?

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;49788499] But I have a 'low bar' for video games because I'm content the game is decent now and expect it to improve intime instead of impatiently tapping my foot expecting everything to be done when I want it to be?[/QUOTE] Yes! I mean... Uh, n... Dammit, you got me in a real bind here.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49788667]Yes. Look at rust, it is the Bastian for how early access should be done. Tripwire could follow suit easily.[/QUOTE] You realized satisfied means pleased, and you can be pleased with the game in it's current state yet expect and want it to improve like they said it would? Nice job assuming everyone who enjoys the game as it is but wants it to be better has low standards.

[QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49788883]If you're pleased with demo, I guess it is the perfect game for you[/QUOTE] Oh, cool. You can point out where I said that. Maybe it's behind where I said people (like me!) want the game to improve.

I don't feel like arguing anymore, no, but yes I tend to get irritated when people think I have poor taste in games when I happen to enjoy a game yet don't consider it amazing and think parts of it are bad and need to be fixed.

I like how people are mad that is taking some time to create the updates and contents for it :v:

[QUOTE=KayoDuck;49789455]I like how people are mad that is taking some time to create the updates and contents for it :v:[/QUOTE] hello I work with many 3d artists and animators on a daily basis it doesn't take this long

So I've been out of the loop for a while, is sharpshooter going to be the only perk next time or is it being paired with martial artist?

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;49789463]hello I work with many 3d artists and animators on a daily basis it doesn't take this long[/QUOTE] If creating content or even a game was just that, no need to worry about programming, balancing, creating design, testing, creation of concepts and application then sure wouldn't take so long [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=PotatoArmada;49789482]So I've been out of the loop for a while, is sharpshooter going to be the only perk next time or is it being paired with martial artist?[/QUOTE] They didn't mention anything about Martial if i'm correct, so probally they are focusing on Sharp this time

[QUOTE=KayoDuck;49789484]If creating content or even a game was just that, no need to worry about programming, balancing, creating design, testing, creation of concepts and application then sure wouldn't take so long[/QUOTE] Concept Design doesn't really take long considering that the weapons they make are based of real life weapons, so if anything the conceptualization stage should be even shorter. Modelling does take it, and so does animating the model, but IIRC the animations are mocapped at 200 FPS, and the mocapping can be done at the same time someone is actually making the model. Programming at this point is pretty much changing a few variable names and such, they literally have a template for weapons and just stick them in. We talked about Balancing before, but for whatever reason TWI decides to internally test everything before consumers get any of it. I understand testing for the purposes of debugging, but it seems like they're testing for balancing purposes which feels like should be the community's job (AKA everyone who bought into Early Access, which makes us Alpha/Beta testers). Other games typically release some update and patch out a necessary buff/nerf as needed. It just adds more work for them because so far none of the weapons on release were properly balanced, meaning they had to spend time creating a patch after all their testing was done. They could be so much faster than this, but at this point it just seems like they're acting leisurely.

[QUOTE=huntingrifle;49789946]Concept Design doesn't really take long considering that the weapons they make are based of real life weapons, so if anything the conceptualization stage should be even shorter. Modelling does take it, and so does animating the model, but IIRC the animations are mocapped at 200 FPS, and the mocapping can be done at the same time someone is actually making the model. Programming at this point is pretty much changing a few variable names and such, they literally have a template for weapons and just stick them in. We talked about Balancing before, but for whatever reason TWI decides to internally test everything before consumers get any of it. I understand testing for the purposes of debugging, but it seems like they're testing for balancing purposes which feels like should be the community's job (AKA everyone who bought into Early Access, which makes us Alpha/Beta testers). Other games typically release some update and patch out a necessary buff/nerf as needed. It just adds more work for them because so far none of the weapons on release were properly balanced, meaning they had to spend time creating a patch after all their testing was done. They could be so much faster than this, but at this point it just seems like they're acting leisurely.[/QUOTE] In design i mean how the level works, where is set, why is set in there. For a character would be his nationality, his style, his story and other stuff. For weapons how is going to work, is going to be for which tier, there will be alternative fire, the ways this weapon could be used and a lot of stuff. It's not just "hey, draw this gun so we can model" you need to study and explore what you have in your head, if it's going to work in-game, if fits for it. Programming is not so simple champ, even more with features like the GORE system and the aim system. Even if you just ctrl+c and ctrl+v on the code it can cause some conflict and bugs. To be honest the amount of time they are taking to create the content is the same amount of time that a game like CS:GO or PD2 takes to get some content, like an update or a DLC

Programming for weapons is simple, map design is a different story. Sure, developing a map is difficult to conceptualize and actually create, but the amount of time it takes to get an update feels like some things are put on the back burner until Goal A is reached, instead of working on everything simultaneously. CS:GO gets weekly or biweekly patches, PD2 gets new content bi-weekly for the most part, so it's definitely not that hard to change the AI behavior of Hans, or even just change his damage/health values and push an update out. It could take them a day's worth of code rewriting to fix Hans, so why aren't they doing it? But I digress, I'll keep myself occupied on SheepKF's server and other games until another update hits, no point getting upset over something that won't change (as in TWI's scheduling).

[QUOTE=KayoDuck;49789484]If creating content or even a game was just that, no need to worry about programming, balancing, creating design, testing, creation of concepts and application then sure wouldn't take so long [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] They didn't mention anything about Martial if i'm correct, so probally they are focusing on Sharp this time[/QUOTE] God damnit it's EARLY ACCESS Even when they take so long they release turds much too similiar to the Demolitionist. I'm sure absolutely no one would complain if we got quickly showered in unbalanced perks, at least we'd have something to try out and actually have feedback to give on them

Battlefield 4 produces 70+ weapons to an insane quality yet kf2 barely manages 3.

[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49791242]Battlefield 4 produces 70+ weapons to an insane quality yet kf2 barely manages 3.[/QUOTE] It didn't have 70+ at launch though

[QUOTE=DEMONSKUL;49791279]It didn't have 70+ at launch though[/QUOTE] So what? it still had infinitely more weapons than KF1 / KF2

[QUOTE=KayoDuck;49789455]I like how people are mad that is taking some time to create the updates and contents for it :v:[/QUOTE] It's not the maps, new classes, or even the weapons that bother me. [sp]Maps are never an issue once an SDK comes out. We're already getting a ton of user-created ones of varying quality.[/sp] It's the fucking inexcusable rate they're working at to balance [I]anything.[/I] I don't have a long and experienced game design background, but I've sure as shit done enough general leg work and dabbling with mods (for many different engines) to know how piss easy it would be for them to roll out some very simple changes - such as unfucking Hans' HP scaling and broken attack damage. Or to play around with some of the variables to make classes/perks more interesting instead of inherently boring and linear. Instead that kind shit festers for [I]months[/I] while we get occasional pittance puddles of "b-but we're working on it", "look at our cool charts", and "game development is [I]very[/I] difficult );" That's why I'm pissed. I'm pissed because I love the game and the massive potential it has, but it's being handled incompetently at a glacial pace. I don't get pissed at bad games because I just move on, but poor development choices are something people have a very legitimate right to get mad at and raise a stink over - especially if it might change things. [sp]I'm also pissed that "Early Access done Right" has turned into yet-another example of "Early Access used as a shield for bad decisions."[/sp]

[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49791242]Battlefield 4 produces 70+ weapons to an insane quality yet kf2 barely manages 3.[/QUOTE] Whoa there, cowboy. Should I remind you what kind of a broken turd was BF4 on release?

[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49791242]Battlefield 4 produces 70+ weapons to an insane quality yet kf2 barely manages 3.[/QUOTE] EA DICE has 560 employees Tripwire Interactive has 50

[QUOTE=DEMONSKUL;49791279]It didn't have 70+ at launch though[/QUOTE] Not to mention DICE is a much larger and much better funded studio than tripwire, they probably have more animators, and 3D artists at their disposal. [editline]22nd February 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=RenegadeCop;49791475]Smaller teams have done more in a shorter time[/QUOTE] Evidently not...

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49791438]EA DICE has 560 employees Tripwire Interactive has 50[/QUOTE] I'm a student and I could produce weapon assets faster than Tripwire. Which isn't hard considering it takes them 2 months to produce 3 weapons. Defend everything else all you want I will argue you at every turn over how slow their weapons department is.

I just want them to stop bringing out balance fixes only paired with big content updates I can do without big content updates, but balance demo for gods sake

[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49791242]Battlefield 4 produces 70+ weapons to an insane quality yet kf2 barely manages 3.[/QUOTE] Keep in mind all of the weapons in the same class have the same damage and they just change things like recoil and fire rate. There's tons of useless weapons in BF4.

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49791438]EA DICE has 560 employees Tripwire Interactive has 50[/QUOTE] You can't defend tripwire. They became lazy after EA launch because they received a large sum of money before the game was even done. IIRC They planned to have it all finished by November of last year and out on console as their schedule that came out around the time of Early Access.

[QUOTE=Destroyox;49794823]Keep in mind all of the weapons in the same class have the same damage and they just change things like recoil and fire rate. There's tons of useless weapons in BF4.[/QUOTE] But the same could be said for Commando's weapons when the base EA was released, and the same for Gunslinger and Support. I've looked at the unpacked model and animation files, everything has the same naming scheme for animations so you literally could copy+paste the code for one weapon to another and change some variables. BF4 was animated by hand in a 3D program, KF2 is mocapped so animating it is even faster than most studios.

[QUOTE=huntingrifle;49795399]But the same could be said for Commando's weapons when the base EA was released, and the same for Gunslinger and Support. I've looked at the unpacked model and animation files, everything has the same naming scheme for animations so you literally could copy+paste the code for one weapon to another and change some variables. BF4 was animated by hand in a 3D program, KF2 is mocapped so animating it is even faster than most studios.[/QUOTE] Mocap isn't an end all be all. You still need to keyframe things or it'll look like shit. Also some of BF4's animations are less quality than KF2's, so doing it all keyframed wasn't worth it for them. Also remember that KF2 has its animations at hundred of fps and are in extreme detail. Tripwire is a much smaller studio but they've actually made their guns look better and more authentic than DICE ever managed. And you're really going to say a convenient naming scheme for animations is them being lazy?

Mocapping is much, much faster though. Of course KF2's animations are better quality, but programming-wise it's almost a copy+paste situation, so no one can argue that "coding the weapons" should take very long the way TWI is doing it.

[QUOTE=huntingrifle;49795527]Mocapping is much, much faster though. Of course KF2's animations are better quality, but programming-wise it's almost a copy+paste situation, so no one can argue that "coding the weapons" should take very long the way TWI is doing it.[/QUOTE] I'd prefer they have a small amount of weapons at first and then balance them, rather than throwing 30 weapons into a class and seeing which one is the most op like in BF4. I mean that kind of shit started happening towards the end of KF1, so I hope they don't repeat the same mistake because "Man wouldn't it be so cool if they added a bunch of guns. I like guns"

They should've just adopted a model like the Space Engineers guys have. They release an update every week on Thursday, no matter how small and/or insignificant it may be. They most commonly send out basic bugfix patches and additions to the tutorial system, but every so often they'll add a major feature such as planets, DX11 support and ship atmospheres. New minor additions and fixes every so often with a big update every few months that change a lot of how the game itself works keeps the game nice and fresh. TWI needs to look at them and start using a constant update scheme like that for small stuff while working on big stuff in the background. Letting the game stagnate for 2-3 months at a time is a fucking terrible way to develop a game. The big content packs (I hate calling them that) get a small cluster of bugfixes and balancing post-release, then fuckall for a significant fraction of the year. I haven't touched the game since the Gunslinger update, and even then it was barely at all as it added another layer of unbalanced horseshit, as well as poor design choices that I can't stomach at all, like the new handgun sound FX.

Did a demo player rape their wives and mothers? What the hell?