Killing Floor v8 - Come Out, Come Out Little Pigs!
4,998 replies, posted
Some of us would rather just play and not conserve ammo a lot
At least we don't have inventory tetris
Another thing that I already think it will affect the gameplay with the Patriarch will be the doors. They already changed it for the FleshPound and Scrake.
Hans has gotten pretty easy with the right classes now, but he's still intensely boring next to the Patriarch.
Patriarch had a lot of huge tells for everything. Melee pushed you back. If you died, you usually deserved it or were the last one left.
Hans on the other hand, save a few goofy attacks (the stand-still super stabs and the like), winds up being extremely fast, combo-y, and he tends to glue to you during melee until you either die or break LoS. It feels frustrating, and half my deaths these days are either because he refused to get off my ass for a solid minute, or I get slapped by a melee attack that does insane damage for no discernible reason. The only reason I don't bitch about him more is because typically a single Level 20 Berzerker with a personal medic can shut down Hans rather easily.
But that's still nothing to say about a boss that gets "ha ha i'm invincible now~" phases, which are garbage no matter how you slice it.
[QUOTE=ashxu;49158363]Hans does have tells and his grenades have an arm time. His rifles are not lethal unlike Patty's minigun. The only problem with Hans is his shield/healing period. You could very easily kill Patty early if you had enough lvl6 people as he can't put up a shield and he's still vulnerable when running away and healing.[/QUOTE]
The tells are insanely short though, atleast from what I renember. Maybe they fixed it now but last I played he just pulls it out and that's it. Patriarch had to line it up, actually wind up the gun, load the RPG, etc. His grenades are ok, but they're a bit spammy.
And yeah, that's the thing. If you've a skilled set of dudes, you can kill Patriarch fast. If you've a skilled set of dudes, you're fucked anyways with Hans because of the little artificial waiting periods. It's just silly.
[QUOTE=AlphaAGENT;49158380]Hans is unfun to fight, I agree. If you're being chased by his goose chase melee attack, it's basically GG unless your team is competent enough to keep him off you/damage him quickly enough. His melee shouldn't have no I-frames and hit that quickly, basically ensuring a near-instant kill.
I'm assuming in the latter part you're talking about Commando. Commando is a trash killer, if you're spending more than 1-2 rounds (depending on your gun, of course) on trash zeds like Clots and Gorefasts, you aren't efficiently taking care of trash. The SCAR basically 1 shots all trash zeds with headshots, which is what you should be going for majority of the time. I cant speak for others, but to ensure first shot and followup accuracy, I stay on Semi-Automatic.[/QUOTE]
The thing is that it's not fun. From what I recall in original KF, I had atleast 2 extra mags for all of my auto guns and running out of ammo in a single wave, even on higher difficulties despite how unviable Commando could get, was pretty hard to pull off.
You could spray fire for funnies pretty reliably without having to worry about ammo, specially since ammo boxes were way more plentiful and also refilled a good amount. Sure, methodically clicking on dudes' heads was also a thing and was indeed the best way to play CMD, but it wasn't the most fun thing in the world. For that you had Sharpshooter.
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49158235]You are free to provide them with feedback at any time
[img]http://i.imgur.com/iioOj9K.png[/img][/QUOTE]
That doesn't really work though? I've seen glaring issues make it from day 1 to release on early access titles with plenty of talk on the forum. It's okay though I feel really involved in the development because I got to vote for some skin packs!!! okay, sarcasm aside I trust tripwire to make this game and I don't think they needed early access to make that happen, regardless, their methods are sort of defeating the purpose. (Unless the purpose is to secure some funds and to have people chime in after they've "fleshed out" content to their liking.)
a big problem as well is that they take so fucking long to do anything, even balance updates. demo has still been useless outside of nuke since day 1 of its release. firebug still has double splash. zerker/medic are still fucking crazy. and it takes them several months to deal with any of it. same with all the bugs and whatnot.
I wonder if they'll officially launch the game after all the perks are done, or if they'll take 6 months or so to rebalance all of them.
[QUOTE=Naught;49160440]a big problem as well is that they take so fucking long to do anything, even balance updates. demo has still been useless outside of nuke since day 1 of its release. firebug still has double splash. zerker/medic are still fucking crazy. and it takes them several months to deal with any of it. same with all the bugs and whatnot.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that they seem to want to not release any updates unless they are essential for running the game or content updates
Which is a terrible thing
They should really just regulate Balance patches and not let months go by for them
Balance doesn't equal content, so it shouldn't be grouped alongside it
I thought they made it clear that they wanted to do early access differently and focus on having it be a stable early look at the game, rather than throwing out unfinished content and seeing what breaks.
[quote]"We do not subscribe to the view that things that go into Early Access should be broken," Wilson said. "Yeah, there's probably going to be the odd, lurking bug. But at that point, we're asking people to part with their money, and they should not be getting a broken product. I think that's where a number of people are going wrong with Early Access. They're treating it like a paid beta." [url]http://www.gamespot.com/articles/killing-floor-2-dev-says-early-access-games-should/1100-6427868/[/url][/quote]
[QUOTE=GammaFive;49160825]I thought they made it clear that they wanted to do early access differently and focus on having it be a stable early look at the game, rather than throwing out unfinished content and seeing what breaks.[/QUOTE]
Right click > Properties > Betas > Opt in, would literally please everyone. Just push your buggy dev build into a separate branch so people who want can get it early. Instead they're doing their own thing while pretending it's Early Access so people can't write negative reviews on how the game is dull and lacking.
[QUOTE=errur;49160902]Right click > Properties > Betas > Opt in, would literally please everyone. Just push your buggy dev build into a separate branch so people who want can get it early. Instead they're doing their own thing while pretending it's Early Access so people can't write negative reviews on how the game is dull and lacking.[/QUOTE]
How are they only pretending it's early access? The game is very much unfinished and still in development. And to suggest that it's anywhere near logical to criticize an early access game for being lacking is completely idiotic.
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49161157]How are they only pretending it's early access? The game is very much unfinished and still in development. And to suggest that it's anywhere near logical to criticize an early access game for being lacking is completely idiotic.[/QUOTE]
Since Early Access released, it's been more of a thing where you're paying to test the game out in it's pre-release stages, bugs and all. Sure it's a 50-50 roll as to whether the game dev will actually finish the project, but from big name companies like Tripwire you've got some degree of certainty.
The thing is, we're not paying to test anything. We're just paying to get the most literal and basic definition of early access, which while ok, will only hurt the game in the long run; why bugtest with like 2 in-house goonies when you've got thousands of them who bought your game?
People still criticize EA games for being unfinished, you know. That's just a thing that happens.
[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;49164017]Since Early Access released, it's been more of a thing where you're paying to test the game out in it's pre-release stages, bugs and all. Sure it's a 50-50 roll as to whether the game dev will actually finish the project, but from big name companies like Tripwire you've got some degree of certainty.
The thing is, we're not paying to test anything. We're just paying to get the most literal and basic definition of early access, which while ok, will only hurt the game in the long run; why bugtest with like 2 in-house goonies when you've got thousands of them who bought your game?
People still criticize EA games for being unfinished, you know. That's just a thing that happens.[/QUOTE]
Why do you say we aren't testing anything? This is taken straight from the early access info section on the store page:
[quote]We see Early Access as an opportunity to involve you, the community, and actually incorporate your feedback as we balance and put the finishing touches on the game. ...
...So this is what we primarily want from Early Access and the Killing Floor community: help us balance the game right. We need as many players in the game as possible and your feedback to achieve this. We will start with 4 Perks, with their Perk weapons, plus a few off-Perk weapons, playing across just 3 of the final levels. We'll be recording a lot of analytic data during Early Access (what weapons you use, where you die, where you die again and again, plus so much more - but NOTHING personal or that allows us to identify individuals).[/quote]
We are in fact helping Tripwire greatly simply by playing the game. Any bugs you find you are encouraged to post them on the official tripwire forums or the kf2 steam group. This notion that we aren't testing anything is ridiculous.
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49164085]Why do you say we aren't testing anything? This is taken straight from the early access info section on the store page:
We are in fact helping Tripwire greatly simply by playing the game. Any bugs you find you are encouraged to post them on the official tripwire forums or the kf2 steam group. This notion that we aren't testing anything is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
You're joking right? Every single piece of development, Q&A, bugtesting and bugfixing is done internally. When they release an update, it's as polished as it could be. There's no feedback loop since all the requests for balance tweaks are going unheard. They're obviously going to fix the one or two bugs that got past their 5 month long dev cycle.
You're not testing anything. You're just playing. You wouldn't even know this was an EA title; the EA launch was as if the game had just come out and the devs started to work on a regular update schedule. Everything's polished, everything's done and they're not really listening to anything. "Ammo count's a bit low, can we get some more please?" [I]Surely this means you want even less ammo[/I]
Sure it's noble that they're releasing a polished EA title, but this clearly isn't what most players are looking for. You might be happy with just playing the game, but some people want to actually help out with development and see a better vision of the game realized.
[QUOTE=MrHeadHopper;49164162]You're joking right? Every single piece of development, Q&A, bugtesting and bugfixing is done internally. When they release an update, it's as polished as it could be. There's no feedback loop since all the requests for balance tweaks are going unheard. They're obviously going to fix the one or two bugs that got past their 5 month long dev cycle.
You're not testing anything. You're just playing. You wouldn't even know this was an EA title; the EA launch was as if the game had just come out and the devs started to work on a regular update schedule. Everything's polished, everything's done and they're not really listening to anything. "Ammo count's a bit low, can we get some more please?" [I]Surely this means you want even less ammo[/I]
Sure it's noble that they're releasing a polished EA title, but this clearly isn't what most players are looking for. You might be happy with just playing the game, but some people want to actually help out with development and see a better vision of the game realized.[/QUOTE]
Let me again quote the store page
[quote]So this is what we primarily want from Early Access and the Killing Floor community: help us balance the game right.... ...We'll be recording a lot of analytic data during Early Access (what weapons you use, where you die, where you die again and again, plus so much more - but NOTHING personal or that allows us to identify individuals)[/quote]
[quote]For Killing Floor 2 Early Access feedback players can reach us a number of ways to communicate their thoughts & feedback:
The Official Killing Floor 2 Forums
The Killing Floor 2 Official Steam Game Group
Come and take part on our Social Media Channels:
Facebook
Twitter”[/quote]
"You're not testing anything. You're just playing."
Let me ask you this. How do you test the balance of a game?
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49164265]Let me again quote the store page
"You're not testing anything. You're just playing."
Let me ask you this. How do you test the balance of the game?[/QUOTE]
Slash as much sense as this makes on paper this simply isn't what's happening.
A few months back I put up a bunch of bug reports on their forum. I even offered some possible causes and how to solve each one. This was before Incinerate and Detonate even came out. Come a few weeks prior to their next content pack, it [I]still[/I] isn't fixed.
One of the bugs in question was something as game breaking as counting a player as alive if they're in the ready room when a wave starts, multiplying ZED health, quantity, and frequency for the players that are actually playing.
If we're testing a game I'd expect our feedback to actually have some weight. You're taking HeadHopper's "we're just playing" statement [I]way[/I] too literally. He means that it feels as if we're pushed away from the development process as much as they like to tell us we're really part of it. I'm gonna take a page out of their early access too seeing as you omitted probably the biggest and most important point of it:
[QUOTE]perfect gameplay balance can only come from large scale play testing[/QUOTE]
Yep, you're damn right it does. You can't test things in house and call it a day. That's the point he was trying to make. And they're doing exactly that. Granted I don't know what kind of complicated algorithms they have working to record our statistics, but if we have a large scale of people complaining about something and they still haven't done anything to fix it I think it's safe to say they aren't listening to their own words.
If you think I'm shit picking I'm nearing my 200th hour in the game and I don't have plans to stop. It's a fun game and in no way do I regret the money I put into it, but let's not pretend that something is happening when it really isn't.
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49161157]How are they only pretending it's early access? The game is very much unfinished and still in development. And to suggest that it's anywhere near logical to criticize an early access game for being lacking is completely idiotic.[/QUOTE]
Well okay, it is ~technically~ early access since you access the game early, but it doesn't bring anything else early access stands for. They may have their own idea about what early access is, which is essentially releasing different beta builds. Like back in the day when there was no reliable way to easily update games unless they had a launcher with an auto updater.
[i]"B-but you're playing the game to work out balance and bugs before the game is fully released!!"[/i]
What difference does that make if it's early access or full release? It's nothing more but formalities because the game isn't lacking features, there are no placeholders for anything, there are no big obvious features missing, it's only lacking content that doesn't necessarily change anything only add more variety to the same.
What do they gain from doing it this way? Early money and less negative press for them if the game isn't right? People would complain if the game was unbalanced after release and they'd make changes to improve it just as they do now and did to kf1. They've added and changed things plenty in KF1, which only boomed in popularity years after release, being a very solid game, full of content and being discounted heavily on sales.
There is a reason this discussion keeps coming up all the time.
I had a theory about TW having financial issues only based on the fact that they quadrupled KF1 dlc prices some time before KF2 release. Maybe they only released KF2 as it was because they needed money boost?
It's totally baseless and I have nothing firm to support it. Just a thought I had.
[QUOTE=Sini;49165325]I had a theory about TW having financial issues only based on the fact that they quadrupled KF1 dlc prices some time before KF2 release. Maybe they only released KF2 as it was because they needed money boost?
It's totally baseless and I have nothing firm to support it. Just a thought I had.[/QUOTE]
Well, they did mention that selling the KF1 skin packs at that price was pretty much not netting them any profit (thus the price increase)
[QUOTE=NitronikALT;49165344]Well, they did mention that selling the KF1 skin packs at that price was pretty much not netting them any profit (thus the price increase)[/QUOTE]
Why increase price almost 5 years later?
Edit: I mean did they only realize it that late?
[QUOTE=NitronikALT;49165344]Well, they did mention that selling the KF1 skin packs at that price was pretty much not netting them any profit (thus the price increase)[/QUOTE]
How can you not make money from skins? The effort to produce them is a days pay, tops.
[QUOTE=ZombieDawgs;49165374]How can you not make money from skins? The effort to produce them is a days pay, tops.[/QUOTE]
Seems like it was an issue with taxes given the way it was worded
0,99€ is already a pretty low price, and if you consider that they weren't getting all of them as profit...
[QUOTE=Sini;49165368]Why increase price almost 5 years later?[/QUOTE]
Maybe the situation was becoming unsustainable? I'm not their accountant. Do keep in mind that at the time of the first skin packs coming they weren't even developing RO2, I think (so that means they had even less expenses to deal with)
[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49164265]
"You're not testing anything. You're just playing."
Let me ask you this. How do you test the balance of the game?[/QUOTE]
and yet medic is still as bullshit as it was from the beta of the game and has only gotten buffed, even after all the complaints, since beta. its obvious that they don't listen to people offering suggestions. this isn't a real early access title, its just something that was released unfinished so they could get money flowing in. and its obvious that the data that they've been recording is nothing but bullshit because they've been doing buffs and nerfs where it wasn't needed. support is practically useless and it wasn't even that great beforehand, etc.
The whole EA thing wouldn't bother me (as much) if Tripwire could "balance" themselves out of a paper bag.
Scrakes and FPs are angry fairies in small servers, and senseless ammo dumps in large ones.
Hans is a tired joke.
Berzerker went full 180 from comedy hurr class to practically overpowered.
Support, a class that was already middle of the road or worse, got slapped with nerfs.
Demo released as garbage and still reeks of it.
And this is to say nothing of a perk system seemingly drawn up by a child where out of 60 something choices, there are only a few sets that are actually trade-offs, everything else being an objective upgrade over the others. It's almost like the person behind the perks never even touched the game or put more than a passing thought into it. The tweaks not only come slowly, they often just fuck stuff up more except the 'zerker flip from bad to broken.
Yeah, wow-ee, 20% more damage with single-shot modes when a single shot removes the head of every bit of trash in the game, but still won't drop a crawler - I totally need to take that over the exact same 20% damage buff to auto-fire that I need to use in a real panic. Ho boy, 3HP regen on a kill when I could just have another straight up fucking 100HP right then and there. Hurrrrr
I always laugh at people that tell me [I]"WELL SINGLE SHOT IS FOR PEOPLE THAT KNOW HOW TO AIM" [/I]and then fail to realize you can single shot with automatic mode
I know perks are a thing but I literally don't pay attention to them. They'd be better off merging them into the perk at this point.
Everyone's talking about balance like KF1 was the most balanced thing ever. But remember for a long time Medic had only 1 gun, and firebug was completely useless until flare guns came along, and you have to spend actual money to get those.
Basically the games fine, shits cooperative, who gives a fuck about balance. The shit classes will inevitably be buffed but it makes more sense to bring classes in line when you have all the classes in game.
[sp]Inb4 bitching about taking years to add classes[/sp]
the game isn't fine and a lot of people care about balance. not everyone plays on normal and hard, sorry.
