Killing Floor v8 - Come Out, Come Out Little Pigs! - Games

M79 needs at least the ammo count from the previous killing floor. The low ammo count on it makes it not worth buying at all. Just sacrifice some extra dosh and get the RPG. Really the only way to go for right now.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;49377991]m79 is pretty good tho It's just shit compared to the RPG as always, m79 isn't a demo weapon, it's a sidearm for medic/berserker. Or if you're feeling badass, you can take it as commando with the fast reload zed time perk, and trigger a zed time with the m79, then during zed time you reload, fire again and kill another group of trash, get an extension, rinse repeat. It's fucking awesome but completely inefficient.[/QUOTE] its not that great. maybe on low difficulties its good, but everything is. its completely useless on HOE and mostly useless on suicidal. it feels cool to use, but its easier for medic/zerker to just kill the trash and have a useful weapon instead of a nade launcher. pulverizer medic is fucking incredible on HOE, same with zweihander/pulv zerker.

[QUOTE=Lone_Star94;49378159]M79 needs at least the ammo count from the previous killing floor. The low ammo count on it makes it not worth buying at all. Just sacrifice some extra dosh and get the RPG. Really the only way to go for right now.[/QUOTE] All it needs is a generous price cut to bridge the gap between HX25 and RPG.

Demolitions is pretty bothersome. It's probably the least satisfying perk to use. The RPG doesn't feel meaty like all the other weapons, the M79 could be much more useful, the C4 is basically the same as the first game and the pistol and dynamite is about the only interesting part of it. Particularly as noted above, the ridiculous issues of projectiles flying way off mark or disappearing entirely. It's pretty badly fucked up.

how to fix demo: add the m32

also how to fix demo: make the RPG not do the damage of a bash attack

how to fix demo v3: add a weapon that actually has more than one fucking shot per goddamn mag

Hmm, does demo get any kind of bonus with the Pulverizer's heavy attack? To me it'd make sense if either the demo or support got one. It creates and explosion, but uses shotgun shells. I actually have not looked in to it.

I didn't think any of the perks crossed over. I wouldn't mind the Trenchgun getting the shotgun bonuses if you equip it as Support but minus the fire rounds.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;49379616]the C4 is basically the same as the first game[/QUOTE] NO It has nowhere near the FP destroying power of the Pipebomb and you can't even put it on your head. :cry: This C4 pretender will never compare to the original Pipebomb. My precious.

[QUOTE=Chiv;49380166]NO It has nowhere near the FP destroying power of the Pipebomb and you can't even put it on your head. :cry: This C4 pretender will never compare to the original Pipebomb. My precious.[/QUOTE] It's the same thing, fight me about it. I'll deck you.

[QUOTE=Tomo Takino;49380218]It's the same thing, fight me about it. I'll deck you.[/QUOTE] IMO KF2's C4 is pretty shit compared to KF1's. I really hate how I have to decide if I should blow up all my C4 or not waste any of them because of zeds that are near C4 which are at the end of my detonation queue. They really should just make it detonate those close to your crosshair instead of having some asinine queue system. I really don't care about the wonky stuff you could do with C4 in the previous game but they took 2 steps back trying to take 1 forward, I'd rather have C4 explode on their own rather than being able to manually detonate them but being forced to lay them in a line.

[QUOTE=Chiv;49380166]NO It has nowhere near the FP destroying power of the Pipebomb and you can't even put it on your head. :cry: This C4 pretender will never compare to the original Pipebomb. My precious.[/QUOTE] Pipebomb hats were the fucking best. Also, the first time you pipe-stack a few hundred of them against a door and watch the patriarch evaporate on contact is something you never forget.

[QUOTE=BeardyDuck;49379802]how to fix demo: add the m32[/QUOTE] I worry that adding the M32, on top of fixing what needs to be fixed with demo (disappearing/inaccurate rockets, poor perk choices, m79 being useless, stun grenades being unable to stun FPs during rage animation, weak hx25 outside of normal mode, yadda yadda), it would be too much and make him too strong. I think Tripwire should take baby steps with Demo, and fix/buff what we have now and see where that puts him. Once the RPG fires consistently, the m79 is viable, the grenade pistol is buffed a bit, if he still needs more then the M32 should be considered.

I'd rather have a class that's slightly too powerful than one that you cannot play due to it being so weak.

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;49381573]I'd rather have a class that's slightly too powerful than one that you cannot play due to it being so weak.[/QUOTE] And surely you'd rather have a class that's balanced rather than be too powerful? That's why I say take small steps balancing Demo. Fix what needs to be fixed, and if that puts him at a good spot, then great. If not, consider adding the M32, or the M4 203. That's all I'm saying.

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49381658]And surely you'd rather have a class that's balanced rather than be too powerful? That's why I say take small steps balancing Demo. Fix what needs to be fixed, and if that puts him at a good spot, then great. If not, consider adding the M32, or the M4 203. That's all I'm saying.[/QUOTE] No, not small steps. He needs something drastic. Huge, sweeping buffs across the board. It will be more efficient to have him OP for a bit and see where he's too good, then to continually go "needs a little bit more" until he's passable.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;49381699]No, not small steps. He needs something drastic. Huge, sweeping buffs across the board. It will be more efficient to have him OP for a bit and see where he's too good, then to continually go "needs a little bit more" until he's passable.[/QUOTE] Remember when Berserker was shit? They made him op and now after a few tweaks he's the most balanced class.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;49381699]No, not small steps. He needs something drastic. Huge, sweeping buffs across the board. It will be more efficient to have him OP for a bit and see where he's too good, then to continually go "needs a little bit more" until he's passable.[/QUOTE] I don't see the logic, if they over-buff him they're going to have to tweak him back to balanced anyways. Might as well start with tweaks (although buffing what I suggested would be pretty substantial).

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49381827]I don't see the logic, if they over-buff him they're going to have to tweak him back to balanced anyways. Might as well start with tweaks (although buffing what I suggested would be pretty substantial).[/QUOTE] I'm 99% sure I've said this before, but I'll explain it again. TWI completely fucked up the demo from the start. Giving him no multi-shot weapons and C4 as a tier 2 were both hilariously awful ideas, as well as giving him [I]the[/I] undoubtedly worst tier 1 in the game. He also has far too many weaknesses for how few strengths he has. Most notably is his complete lack of perk weapons that he can reliably use against singular to small groups of trash. He'll either use the 9mm or recently, gunslinger off-perk. I can appreciate how there seems to be a perk that isn't good at trash clear, but the problem comes in in that he honestly isn't good enough against big zeds. Take, for instance, the RPG-7. A hit against a fleshpound will do around 1200-1600 damage, accounting for a few variables such as if you hit him in the head, what level you are, things like that. The trouble is, even with the higher number of 1600, a 6-man sui FP has 6500 health. You'll have to smack him with a grand total of 5 consecutive rockets, and you only get 12. A HoE FP will take another rocket, bringing a total of 6 rockets to down a single enemy. This is assuming he hasn't raged at you and pounded you into the dirt because you have no movement abilities or any survivability at all except for a single perk that only works when you're about to die. He also isn't much good against scrakes, except when he is when you get an RPG impact to the head. I have [I]no idea[/I] why TWI decided to make this stupid, stupid decision, but they did. It basically means that firing your RPG at a scrake's head is a gamble between wasting an incredibly valuable rocket to either chunk for a good bit of HP or have it be completely ineffectual, because he has explosive resistance but the impact does extra damage. The fact that you're forced to get a headshot with a rocket also means that this kind of thing is pretty much just a waste of a rocket if the scrake is raged. Oh, and both Hans and Patriarch have explosive resistance. Lovely. Demo is completely worthless against them. His perk choices are also laughable. Mostly at rank 15. This one shouldn't even be an option, one perk gets rid of one of the demo's biggest weaknesses and the other is one of the most useless perks in the whole game. The rank 10 perks are pretty poor, too. Explosive damage is pretty much just Hans' grenades and Patriarch's rocket, both things that are telegraphed and designed to be avoided rather than tanked. Riddle me this as well, the perk has more benefit if you're all huddled together, but if you're all huddled together against an explosive, which is by defintion an area of effect, why would you even do it? Nevermind what I established earlier in that demo is completely worthless against the boss characters. Rank 20 is also dumb. An admittance that the demo's weapons are so bad that the game will give you an incentive to use other, good, weapons. Rank 25 takes the cake though. Would you want your explosives to stumble more, or.. do massive damage? It is kind of notable that many people (such as myself) believe that nuke is the only thing keeping the demo from being basically a waste of disk space. Usually, I'm actually in favour of slowly buffing something until it's from usable to viable, but the thing is, demolitions isn't usable. He is complete garbage, and you're gimping yourself by playing him. I would rather him be momentarily overpowered and actually useful than have this destroyed tower assembled one brick at a time.

Demo would benefit from a quick reload perk like Gunslinger, Support and commando have if they insist to keep him with single shot weapons Will give him more time to dish out damage against Fleshpounds before they can rage and get too close to deem rockets useless Can i also say i NEVER got the bonus EXP for killing a FP? That's because your rocket isn't the killing blow 9 times out of 10

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49381827]I don't see the logic, if they over-buff him they're going to have to tweak him back to balanced anyways. Might as well start with tweaks (although buffing what I suggested would be pretty substantial).[/QUOTE] problem with doing minor tweaks and such is that this is tripwire. each minor tweak is gonna take several months.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;49381963]I'm 99% sure I've said this before, but I'll explain it again. TWI completely fucked up the demo from the start. Giving him no multi-shot weapons and C4 as a tier 2 were both hilariously awful ideas, as well as giving him [I]the[/I] undoubtedly worst tier 1 in the game. He also has far too many weaknesses for how few strengths he has. Most notably is his complete lack of perk weapons that he can reliably use against singular to small groups of trash. He'll either use the 9mm or recently, gunslinger off-perk. I can appreciate how there seems to be a perk that isn't good at trash clear, but the problem comes in in that he honestly isn't good enough against big zeds. Take, for instance, the RPG-7. A hit against a fleshpound will do around 1200-1600 damage, accounting for a few variables such as if you hit him in the head, what level you are, things like that. The trouble is, even with the higher number of 1600, a 6-man sui FP has 6500 health. You'll have to smack him with a grand total of 5 consecutive rockets, and you only get 12. A HoE FP will take another rocket, bringing a total of 6 rockets to down a single enemy. This is assuming he hasn't raged at you and pounded you into the dirt because you have no movement abilities or any survivability at all except for a single perk that only works when you're about to die. He also isn't much good against scrakes, except when he is when you get an RPG impact to the head. I have [I]no idea[/I] why TWI decided to make this stupid, stupid decision, but they did. It basically means that firing your RPG at a scrake's head is a gamble between wasting an incredibly valuable rocket to either chunk for a good bit of HP or have it be completely ineffectual, because he has explosive resistance but the impact does extra damage. The fact that you're forced to get a headshot with a rocket also means that this kind of thing is pretty much just a waste of a rocket if the scrake is raged. Oh, and both Hans and Patriarch have explosive resistance. Lovely. Demo is completely worthless against them. His perk choices are also laughable. Mostly at rank 15. This one shouldn't even be an option, one perk gets rid of one of the demo's biggest weaknesses and the other is one of the most useless perks in the whole game. The rank 10 perks are pretty poor, too. Explosive damage is pretty much just Hans' grenades and Patriarch's rocket, both things that are telegraphed and designed to be avoided rather than tanked. Riddle me this as well, the perk has more benefit if you're all huddled together, but if you're all huddled together against an explosive, which is by defintion an area of effect, why would you even do it? Nevermind what I established earlier in that demo is completely worthless against the boss characters. Rank 20 is also dumb. An admittance that the demo's weapons are so bad that the game will give you an incentive to use other, good, weapons. Rank 25 takes the cake though. Would you want your explosives to stumble more, or.. do massive damage? It is kind of notable that many people (such as myself) believe that nuke is the only thing keeping the demo from being basically a waste of disk space. Usually, I'm actually in favour of slowly buffing something until it's from usable to viable, but the thing is, demolitions isn't usable. He is complete garbage, and you're gimping yourself by playing him. I would rather him be momentarily overpowered and actually useful than have this destroyed tower assembled one brick at a time.[/QUOTE] He lacks weapons that can efficiently deal with small groups of trash because small groups of trash are not his job. The only trash he should be shooting at is trash that your team's primary trash cleaners don't see or can't deal with. RPG is very good at bailing your team out if they are getting swarmed. It is true that it takes 6 rockets to kill a 6 man HoE fleshpound, but this assumes that the 5 other players are just sitting there watching. On top of this, using the RPG alone is one of the worst ways you could deal with a Fleshpound, Demo does wayyy more damage using his grenades, C4, and RPG together. A good tactic is stick 2 C4 on the FP, detonate one, and switch to the RPG while he rages. When he exits the rage animation, stun him with an on-contact grenade, shoot an RPG round at him, then switch to C4 and detonate the other. This will remove a little over half of a 6 man HoE FP's health, before it even has a chance to touch you. If the other 5 players on your team have been focusing him while you do this, he will be dead by the time you detonate the second C4. If 5 other players can't deal with half of a Fleshpound, that's not on the Demo. Scrakes have never been Demo's prey. The only time he should be engaging Scrakes is when nobody else can because they are dead. The fact that Demo even has a chance to kill a 6 man HoE Scrake with 3 rockets is pretty generous I think. I agree with you about the bosses, Demo is really needlessly neutered on bosses. And the perks are bad too, they need work. But really I don't think Demo is as bad against FPs as people say. Could he use buffs? Yes, definitely. Is the perk complete worthless waste-of-a-player-slot garbage? No, I don't think so.

Nah, he completely sucks. I don't understand how it's okay to go through all this [quote] A good tactic is stick 2 C4 on the FP, detonate one, and switch to the RPG while he rages. When he exits the rage animation, stun him with an on-contact grenade, shoot an RPG round at him, then switch to C4 and detonate the other. This will remove a little over half of a 6 man HoE FP's health, before it even has a chance to touch you.[/quote] to only get rid of half his health. What the hell? Why not just MWG gun him to death or right click his lights out with a pulveriser? Oh yeah, because firebug and zerk aren't shit and demo is. RPG is very good at bailing your team out if they get swarmed, yes I agree. It also is probably one of the most ludicrously expensive ways of doing so. Medics can do this with their grenade, as can a firebug spraying fire and causing zeds to explode. Even supports have automatic shotguns that they can panic fire with. Demo is a hugely expensive perk that pretty much doesn't do anything well. I can't justify playing him at all, especially now that flex thing has been turned off.

[QUOTE=slashsnemesis;49382082]He lacks weapons that can efficiently deal with small groups of trash because small groups of trash are not his job. The only trash he should be shooting at is trash that your team's primary trash cleaners don't see or can't deal with. RPG is very good at bailing your team out if they are getting swarmed. It is true that it takes 6 rockets to kill a 6 man HoE fleshpound, but this assumes that the 5 other players are just sitting there watching. On top of this, using the RPG alone is one of the worst ways you could deal with a Fleshpound, Demo does wayyy more damage using his grenades, C4, and RPG together. A good tactic is stick 2 C4 on the FP, detonate one, and switch to the RPG while he rages. When he exits the rage animation, stun him with an on-contact grenade, shoot an RPG round at him, then switch to C4 and detonate the other. This will remove a little over half of a 6 man HoE FP's health, before it even has a chance to touch you. If the other 5 players on your team have been focusing him while you do this, he will be dead by the time you detonate the second C4. If 5 other players can't deal with half of a Fleshpound, that's not on the Demo. Scrakes have never been Demo's prey. The only time he should be engaging Scrakes is when nobody else can because they are dead. The fact that Demo even has a chance to kill a 6 man HoE Scrake with 3 rockets is pretty generous I think. I agree with you about the bosses, Demo is really needlessly neutered on bosses. And the perks are bad too, they need work. But really I don't think Demo is as bad against FPs as people say. Could he use buffs? Yes, definitely. Is the perk complete worthless waste-of-a-player-slot garbage? No, I don't think so.[/QUOTE] lots of problems with that though. first off, fleshpounds never come alone. there will always be a lot of shit accompanying them. so while your dream scenario might be nice, it will never work. with the fleshpounds insane bullet resistance, your team will use up a huge amount of their ammo taking them out, and ammo is scarce in HOE. really really scarce. and there are shitloads of zeds in every round. another problem is that since they can't effectively kill trash, they're going to be useless for most of the rounds. this means you HAVE to dump money into them in order for them to be even somewhat useful. which you can't do, because you have to dump money into the medic to get them an AR by round 2-3, dump money to commandos for scars, etc. you just can't afford it. demo is just worthless, its literally a meme perk, more than support it. you pick demo if you want to be useless. a zerker with a pulverizer is just a better demo, every single time. the ONLY reason demo got picked is because of nuke, and they nerfed that into oblivion. literally no HOE team picks them up, and I've played with a shitload.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;49382127]Nah, he completely sucks. I don't understand how it's okay to go through all this to only get rid of half his health. What the hell? Why not just MWG gun him to death or right click his lights out with a pulveriser? Oh yeah, because firebug and zerk aren't shit and demo is. RPG is very good at bailing your team out if they get swarmed, yes I agree. It also is probably one of the most ludicrously expensive ways of doing so. Medics can do this with their grenade, as can a firebug spraying fire and causing zeds to explode. Even supports have automatic shotguns that they can panic fire with. Demo is a hugely expensive perk that pretty much doesn't do anything well. I can't justify playing him at all, especially now that flex thing has been turned off.[/QUOTE] It's okay to use 4 explosives to halve a FP's health within seconds because 1.) You have 5 other players who can do the rest and 2.) you're halving its hp before the Fleshpound even has a chance to touch anyone. And if your team is competent, he's dead before he can touch anyone. That's huge. And it's okay to use a rocket to bail your team out because one click and they are dead. Instant. Effortless. Medic grenades, Firebug spray, and support shotguns all take time and aim. Such a powerful get out of jail free card is worth the rocket.

[QUOTE=Naught;49382187]lots of problems with that though. first off, fleshpounds never come alone. there will always be a lot of shit accompanying them. so while your dream scenario might be nice, it will never work. with the fleshpounds insane bullet resistance, your team will use up a huge amount of their ammo taking them out, and ammo is scarce in HOE. really really scarce. and there are shitloads of zeds in every round. another problem is that since they can't effectively kill trash, they're going to be useless for most of the rounds. this means you HAVE to dump money into them in order for them to be even somewhat useful. which you can't do, because you have to dump money into the medic to get them an AR by round 2-3, dump money to commandos for scars, etc. you just can't afford it. demo is just worthless, its literally a meme perk, more than support it. you pick demo if you want to be useless. a zerker with a pulverizer is just a better demo, every single time. the ONLY reason demo got picked is because of nuke, and they nerfed that into oblivion. literally no HOE team picks them up, and I've played with a shitload.[/QUOTE] Sounds like the vast majority of the problems are stemming from HOE rather than the classes.

[QUOTE=pebkac;49374918]I feel like the siren resistance skill is essential to playing demolitionist, once you're level 15 you can just get into a siren's face and blow her up easily.[/QUOTE] I think it's essential cause sometimes you see a nice big juicy mob of zeds all grouped up and there's that one slut siren in the middle ready to deny your rocket and ruin your day.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;49382583]Sounds like the vast majority of the problems are stemming from HOE rather than the classes.[/QUOTE] except that basically every other class is just fine in HOE. only demo and to a lesser extent support are bad in HOE, and demo is pretty meh in suicidal as well.

[QUOTE=Samiam22;49381963]I'm 99% sure I've said this before, but I'll explain it again. TWI completely fucked up the demo from the start. Giving him no multi-shot weapons and C4 as a tier 2 were both hilariously awful ideas, as well as giving him [I]the[/I] undoubtedly worst tier 1 in the game. He also has far too many weaknesses for how few strengths he has. Most notably is his complete lack of perk weapons that he can reliably use against singular to small groups of trash. He'll either use the 9mm or recently, gunslinger off-perk. I can appreciate how there seems to be a perk that isn't good at trash clear, but the problem comes in in that he honestly isn't good enough against big zeds. Take, for instance, the RPG-7. A hit against a fleshpound will do around 1200-1600 damage, accounting for a few variables such as if you hit him in the head, what level you are, things like that. The trouble is, even with the higher number of 1600, a 6-man sui FP has 6500 health. You'll have to smack him with a grand total of 5 consecutive rockets, and you only get 12. A HoE FP will take another rocket, bringing a total of 6 rockets to down a single enemy. This is assuming he hasn't raged at you and pounded you into the dirt because you have no movement abilities or any survivability at all except for a single perk that only works when you're about to die. He also isn't much good against scrakes, except when he is when you get an RPG impact to the head. I have [I]no idea[/I] why TWI decided to make this stupid, stupid decision, but they did. It basically means that firing your RPG at a scrake's head is a gamble between wasting an incredibly valuable rocket to either chunk for a good bit of HP or have it be completely ineffectual, because he has explosive resistance but the impact does extra damage. The fact that you're forced to get a headshot with a rocket also means that this kind of thing is pretty much just a waste of a rocket if the scrake is raged. Oh, and both Hans and Patriarch have explosive resistance. Lovely. Demo is completely worthless against them. His perk choices are also laughable. Mostly at rank 15. This one shouldn't even be an option, one perk gets rid of one of the demo's biggest weaknesses and the other is one of the most useless perks in the whole game. The rank 10 perks are pretty poor, too. Explosive damage is pretty much just Hans' grenades and Patriarch's rocket, both things that are telegraphed and designed to be avoided rather than tanked. Riddle me this as well, the perk has more benefit if you're all huddled together, but if you're all huddled together against an explosive, which is by defintion an area of effect, why would you even do it? Nevermind what I established earlier in that demo is completely worthless against the boss characters. Rank 20 is also dumb. An admittance that the demo's weapons are so bad that the game will give you an incentive to use other, good, weapons. Rank 25 takes the cake though. Would you want your explosives to stumble more, or.. do massive damage? It is kind of notable that many people (such as myself) believe that nuke is the only thing keeping the demo from being basically a waste of disk space. Usually, I'm actually in favour of slowly buffing something until it's from usable to viable, but the thing is, demolitions isn't usable. He is complete garbage, and you're gimping yourself by playing him. I would rather him be momentarily overpowered and actually useful than have this destroyed tower assembled one brick at a time.[/QUOTE] I've honestly never considered whether or not he's underpowered. I've always just enjoyed blowing shit up too much to think about it.