Star Citizen Megathread v. procedurally-generated deadlines - Games

[QUOTE=Dwarden;52996108]lets hope self-hosted don't end as P2P ... we know how badly it ended for E:D ...[/QUOTE] That doesn't make sense, though. Elite is P2P because [I]all of Elite[/I] is P2P. If you interact with other players, it's via P2P instancing. The whole game was released with P2P in mind. Star Citizen, on the other hand, uses a client-server model for the Persistent Universe, meaning there is already a dedicated server binary available. Once the game is out of beta and the server has been cleaned up to release quality, it shouldn't be a multi-year effort to make a locally-hosted one-instance dedicated server for players. Making self-hosted servers P2P makes no sense because CIG would have to rewrite the entire netcode to support a completely new way of networking with other players that is not used anywhere else in the game service. I'm confident that CIG would just break the promise and say "sorry, we can't give you self-hosted servers because ..." before they said decided to write a P2P server into the client.

[QUOTE=Hezzy;52994796]Teaser looked great! Although I'm not sure why your character quietly mouths the choice on screen and then says something completely different when you select it??[/QUOTE] Getting some PTSD flashbacks to Fallout 4. Hopefully there's an option to turn the inner voice off.

@elixwhitetail don't take me wrong, i'm just scared about the p2p downfalls and cheap shortcuts ... hell i would even pay another 20 buck just for right to run secure dedicated node instead of p2p (that covers both ED and SC and anything else) btw. while ED was built around p2p it actually can run sort of like with dedicated server it has systems like e.g. relayViaServer etc. which remove P2P and it could have client running as server (shocking) sadly FD simply decided it's easier to not give such power to community they could also create blackbox (pre-made running within VM) for big communities to run now i'm just talking about the encounter and combat netcode part not the economy or BGS nor similar ...

I get that you would hate to see P2P infect Star Citizen and I'm on your side on this, it'd be the worst thing. But I really, really don't think you have anything to worry about. CIG would have to write a completely new P2P netcode suite for that, when they've already got the better solution (a dedicated server they can package up and release) in long-term development because they also need it for the main PU server grid. And they'd be making this shitty new P2P system for... no good reason except to break promises, because they already [I]specifically[/I] promised they would release a dedicated server. They use dedicated servers and they promised they'd release a non-clusterable dedicated server for players to run private servers with. This is a pretty straightforward A->B situation, and to suggest they'd have the brain damage to skip giving out the dedi binary and instead cobble together some stupid P2P solution nobody wants is not at all straightforward or logical. Especially since CIG owes their entire existence to the backer community, while Frontier acts more like a traditional studio and is responsible first to their shareholders. It'd be suicide for CIG to not only break their promise of releasing a dedicated server but saddling private servers with terrible P2P handicaps.

As excited as I am for SC, I'm just as excited for the modding potential it has. If it meets expectations, and so far it looks like it's going to, the mod potential is enormous... total conversion mods could make the next Star Wars Galaxies.

[url=https://medium.com/@baron_52141/star-citizen-delays-as-a-content-creator-98c5235adf4e]Bad News Baron (SC streamer) wrote an article[/url] on his thoughts of the game as a content creator focused on Star Citizen

[QUOTE=Daemon White;52997937][url=https://medium.com/@baron_52141/star-citizen-delays-as-a-content-creator-98c5235adf4e]Bad News Baron (SC streamer) wrote an article[/url] on his thoughts of the game as a content creator focused on Star Citizen[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Star Citizen discussion is largely met with skepticism among streamers and youtubers outside of Chris Roberts’ fandom, and for good reason: outwardly, development looks like a disaster. The mainstream news that gets around is generally bad news. CIG’s live presentations are troubled at best and embarrassments at worst. Poor framerates, crashes, and buggy builds stand out as crippling even in the age of early access game titles. Most large streamers I’ve talked to at Twitch events dismiss it as a game that will never be released.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]I should say CIG is a company with the best intentions. I say this as someone who, in the course of my work, has had opportunity to get to know some of the staff in various offices and has gotten to peek behind the curtain a fair few times. The assets they show the public, let alone those that are playable, are only a small fraction of what they have completed in house at any given time. Where one aspect of the game seems to be in development hell, another aspect in another studio might be ahead of schedule. It’s a development hydra. For my part, I know just enough to not worry about the game releasing. They’ll do it, and I can say that with confidence. They might piss off everyone in the process, but they’ll get the thing done. If I didn’t truly believe that there’s strong potential for a steady career as a content creator when the game is released I wouldn’t be wasting years of my life chasing down live streaming as a career path. Perspective: I started engaging the Star Citizen community when I was 25. By my estimates, I might be 32 when the game releases. Even now, a couple of outwardly incredible appearing months of income around holiday season updates are tempered by months upon months of below minimum wage work. I am fully cognizant of the risk I’m taking. It’s a luxury I can afford to take — at this stage of my life, I have no dependents.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Where CIG gets into trouble is their habit of routinely overpromising and underdelivering with their updates. This isn’t intentionally malicious behavior — there is an unbridled enthusiasm and optimism at the management level that, while sometimes endearing, is terrible for PR. Every time a date for an update is given, they 100% believe they’ll hit that date. And then the date goes by. So they change it up, maybe alter the way they present their schedule. And then that falls down too. It often feels like the only thing CIG is ever on time for is another fundraising opportunity. But here’s the truth of the matter: Chris Roberts is, fundamentally, incapable of compromising his belief that every aspect of development should be transparent. Everything is put out there on full display, including the failures. And yet, we can’t say it’s bad for business, because it’s that very quality that may be driving the game’s absurdly successful funding despite complications. It’s no secret that eccentrics often make the best leaders, even if they need others to reign them in. Chris Roberts has that special Elon Musk kind of crazy. Chris’ vision and track record with the beloved Wing Commander series of games brought the classic space sim fans, now financially independent and with disposable income to back projects they believe in. (I’ve been lucky enough to be one of those fan funded projects.) As the game blew past funding goals and milestones, the scope of the title has evolved and shifted into something nearly unrecognizable from the original kickstarter pitch. No, it is not the game original backers pledged for. It’s now, for better or worse, the single largest technological and creative endeavor the video game industry has ever seen.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The reality, like it or not, is that the game is funded. It’s happening. It is progressing. Nothing will change that at this point — not even big scary headlines about the latest setback. Now it’s a matter of managing noise and expectations. Star Citizen isn’t the Jesus Game some think it is. Nor is it a scammy cash grab as others like to insist. It’s a passion project that attracts the same people to work on it as those who want to back it: people who believe in the vision.[/QUOTE] Well fucking said.

The PTU is aparently available to all backers atm

Confirmed on Spectrum. [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-3-0-0-all-backers-test"]PTU 3.0 is open to all backers.[/URL] [B]Important:[/B] 3.0 uses the new delta-capable launcher, which means you need to download and install the new launcher, the old 2.6.3 launcher's PTU tab does not give you a 3.0 build. The first time you download the PTU you will need to download the whole ~40GB; patches after that are delta and in this PTU they've usually been under 600MB. [QUOTE=CIG Will Leverett]Download the installer at [URL="https://install.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen-prerelease/RSI-Setup-1.0.0-ptu.31.exe"]https://install.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen-prerelease/RSI-Setup-1.0.0-ptu.31.exe[/URL]. - While this is installing, copy your account to PTU at [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/account/copy/ptu"]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/account/copy/ptu[/URL]. - You will get your temporary PTU password delivered in email. [B]PLEASE NOTE: This process is subject to heavy load and may take up to an hour![/B] - 3.0.0 Patch Notes: [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-patch-3-0-0-ptu"]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/star-citizen-patch-3-0-0-ptu[/URL] - New Default Controls Scheme: [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-default-control-changes"]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-default-control-changes[/URL] - PTU Frequently Asked Questions: [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-frequently-asked-questions"]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-frequently-asked-questions[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52997996]Well fucking said.[/QUOTE] I agree, especially with: [quote] Where CIG gets into trouble is their habit of routinely overpromising and underdelivering with their updates. This isn’t intentionally malicious behavior — there is an unbridled enthusiasm and optimism at the management level that, while sometimes endearing, is terrible for PR. Every time a date for an update is given, they 100% believe they’ll hit that date. And then the date goes by. So they change it up, maybe alter the way they present their schedule. And then that falls down too. It often feels like the only thing CIG is ever on time for is another fundraising opportunity. But here’s the truth of the matter: Chris Roberts is, fundamentally, incapable of compromising his belief that every aspect of development should be transparent. Everything is put out there on full display, including the failures. And yet, we can’t say it’s bad for business, because it’s that very quality that may be driving the game’s absurdly successful funding despite complications.[/quote] I feel it can be fairly well agreed upon by those who criticize SC in a just fashion - not a "lol its never releasing! vaporware! reeee!" critique - that a lot of SC's slipping in deadlines and release dates is almost certainly due to poor scope management and communication between front-facing elements of the company and lower-level dev leads. Scope creep is inevitable, to some degree, in long-running projects with big aspirations like this one. Scope creep isn't a bad thing per se, but you need to do one or all of these three things: increase budget, increase staffing, delay end of project. Poor communication is honestly just super common with games I think, but in this case its not actually these communicators and front-end managers setting fixed release dates or deciding what does and does not make the cut (thankfully). [quote] It’s no secret that eccentrics often make the best leaders, even if they need others to reign them in. Chris Roberts has that special Elon Musk kind of crazy.[/quote] To be fair, I'd say Elon is more of a smart executive less so than he's a dreamer. This comes across in a lot of his interviews, and he's been uh a bit more rigid on meeting a number of his company's deadlines and schedules in terms of internal decisions. I haven't personally talked to CIG employees, but I've talked to / known a few SpaceX employees. Elon might be reigned in by industry pressure and requirements, but I dunno I think Chris still gets a bit of a loose leash lol. Nothing wrong with that though, as I agree with the last quote. It'll absolutely happen, eventually. The question is just [I]when[/I] ;p [editline]22nd December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52998014]Confirmed on Spectrum. [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/ptu-3-0-0-all-backers-test"]PTU 3.0 is open to all backers.[/URL] [B]Important:[/B] 3.0 uses the new delta-capable launcher, which means you need to download and install the new launcher, the old 2.6.3 launcher's PTU tab does not give you a 3.0 build. The first time you download the PTU you will need to download the whole ~40GB; patches after that are delta and in this PTU they've usually been under 600MB.[/QUOTE] speaking of, lol. Guess I know what I'm doing before I head back for the holidays. Does the offline trick still work, or is there a new guide?

Chris has the Elon Musk crazy, but he doesn't have the slavedriving that Musk has, or if he does, his production managers don't let him treat the employees on their teams the way he'd want when it comes to crunch/overtime. That being said, I know that at least some CIG employees have been coming in on weekends and working evenings for over a month to crunch out the bugs in 3.0 and to get the holiday presentation ready. And Chris is willing to let a deadline slide rather than demand people work more hours, whereas actual rocket science doesn't necessarily have that level of slack. The current fake-offline trick of using CheatEngine works, as far as I know, but it is a violation of the Terms of Service to use CE to fuck with the client, just like any hack fucking with the client is against the rules. Now that PTU is open to everyone, your individual sessions are not so critical to CIG's testing metrics, but still, use at your own risk. Also, remember that 3.0 is still on PTU for a damn good reason: it's not ready for live. But it's improved since it first hit public PTU.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52998084] That being said, I know that at least some CIG employees have been coming in on weekends and working evenings for over a month to crunch out the bugs in 3.0 and to get the holiday presentation ready. [/QUOTE] That's not surprising, tbh. Happens a lot during crunch time at most software houses, to be fair. Also I'm not precisely sure where the slavedriving level of work comes from at SpaceX, its so pervasive I don't think it's just Musk alone. This does feel painfully relevant to the release of PTU to everyone though: [t]https://i.redd.it/8uvcmqtpv8501.png[/t] :v: (also its likely I won't even be able to get SC downloaded before bed tonight, so using CE or not won't come up lol)

[QUOTE=paindoc;52998107][t]https://i.redd.it/8uvcmqtpv8501.png[/t][/QUOTE] CIG learned that lesson [I]hard[/I] when Chris made the foolish decision to rush Arena Commander 1.0.0 out the door a week sooner than it should've been, right before everyone went home for Christmas. Some staff ended up spending several days in the office when they should've been at home, fixing shit up and keeping the servers from exploding. Eventually they went home for their actual break with a watchdog script that rebooted the presence/authentication servers every hour to keep them from dying, which they inevitably would do sometime after an hour of uptime. They tried to do a good thing for backers, but they learned their lesson of not pushing live builds right before going home for 3 weeks. The PTU infrastructure grew out of the lessons learned. Since then, CIG has never pushed any live deployments [I]right[/I] before Christmas. Alpha 2.0 was close, but not as tight as AC 1.0 was. [editline]22nd December 2017[/editline] [url]https://www.twitch.tv/starcitizen[/url] The end-of-year AtV special is live!

dat nebula [twitch]ExpensiveRoughWoodpeckerAliens[/twitch]

[QUOTE=Wii60;52998398]dat nebula [twitch]ExpensiveRoughWoodpeckerAliens[/twitch][/QUOTE] The 10 minutes of actual space flight out of the hour long demo was neat. (The combat not so much, but it's not like this is a space sim or anything.) The volumetric rendering on the nebula is great looking. I was consistently blown away by some of the rendering stuff they do, not just the amazing volumetrics they have going on.

[URL="https://www.twitch.tv/videos/211732244"]Here is the VOD.[/URL] [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16343-Holiday-Special"]Discount starters are now available, $10 off the standard Mustang and Aurora packages, and $10 off the Avenger Stalker starter.[/URL] CIG also announced that the add-on price of Squadron 42 will increase to $20, from $15, at the end of January. [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16341-Legendary-Battle-Tank-Reborn"]The Tumbril Nova tonk concept sale is now up.[/URL] [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/16344-Q-A-Tumbril-Nova"]As is the first Q&A for it.[/URL]

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52997033]I get that you would hate to see P2P infect Star Citizen and I'm on your side on this, it'd be the worst thing. But I really, really don't think you have anything to worry about. CIG would have to write a completely new P2P netcode suite for that, when they've already got the better solution (a dedicated server they can package up and release) in long-term development because they also need it for the main PU server grid. And they'd be making this shitty new P2P system for... no good reason except to break promises, because they already [I]specifically[/I] promised they would release a dedicated server. They use dedicated servers and they promised they'd release a non-clusterable dedicated server for players to run private servers with. This is a pretty straightforward A->B situation, and to suggest they'd have the brain damage to skip giving out the dedi binary and instead cobble together some stupid P2P solution nobody wants is not at all straightforward or logical. Especially since CIG owes their entire existence to the backer community, while Frontier acts more like a traditional studio and is responsible first to their shareholders. It'd be suicide for CIG to not only break their promise of releasing a dedicated server but saddling private servers with terrible P2P handicaps.[/QUOTE] honestly i do wish community can cluster servers too i got more than one server i can spare for great game (and i can get more if it's worth it)

The nova is way larger than i thought it'd be

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52998688] [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/16341-Legendary-Battle-Tank-Reborn"]The Tumbril Nova tonk concept sale is now up.[/URL] [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/engineering/16344-Q-A-Tumbril-Nova"]As is the first Q&A for it.[/URL][/QUOTE] So, speculation as to what ships will be able to carry it, specifically the smallest one? Any chance the Freelancer MAX can?

Oh boy, what is up with the performance in the PTU. 3.0.0 has even worse FPS then the current live has. Thought the "open world" FPS is just so bad because of the old netcode. If it isn't terribly choppy where the music sets out at random even if the game is still sorta running I get like constant 10fps. Also did I miss something or does this PTU really offer all ships to fly? Its been a while since my last PTU but back then I could still only fly my aurora.

[QUOTE=Raidyr;52998818]So, speculation as to what ships will be able to carry it, specifically the smallest one? Any chance the Freelancer MAX can?[/QUOTE] The tank is [I]big[/I] and it is tall. It needs something like an Idris flight deck. It's 5m high, 7m wide, 16m long. I'm thinking a Cat would be a tight squeeze at best and it probably can't even drive through the Starfarer's bay door because of the height. There are currently no vehicles that are specifically designed to carry the tank. [editline]22nd December 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Mitsuma;52998908]Oh boy, what is up with the performance in the PTU. 3.0.0 has even worse FPS then the current live has. Thought the "open world" FPS is just so bad because of the old netcode. If it isn't terribly choppy where the music sets out at random even if the game is still sorta running I get like constant 10fps. Also did I miss something or does this PTU really offer all ships to fly? Its been a while since my last PTU but back then I could still only fly my aurora.[/QUOTE] Every ship has been converted to Item 2.0 so everything needs testing, so [I]most[/I] ships are unlocked for everyone in the PTU. Prior to this, PTU was limited to a few ten thousand backers, and it's possible that nobody in the PTU groups owned, for example, the [del]Hello Kitty[/del]Star Kitten skinned Dragonfly. When 3.0 leaves PTU you'll only have access to the ships you actually have, likely. And, PTU performance is probably going to be a bit dismal because the instance cap is 50 players. They're stress-testing the servers and trying to clear up the performance problems. Like 2.6.3, performance is based on how full your server is; a server with 10 people in it is amazingly smooth, but when it fills up to 50 welcome to shitsville. However, in an instance with only ~24 people, the old cap, performance is better than in a full 2.6.3 instance.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;52998084]Also, remember that 3.0 is still on PTU for a damn good reason: it's not ready for live. But it's improved since it first hit public PTU.[/QUOTE] Mr. Roberts disagrees. [t]https://i.imgur.com/1m0gBUQ.png[/t]

[highlight][B]3.0 IS GOING LIVE TOMORROW THIS IS NOT A JOKE[/B][/highlight] [URL="https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report"]Confirmed in the schedule report:[/URL] [QUOTE]Last update : Dec 22nd, 2017 Star Citizen Alpha 3.0.0 will be released to the Live servers tomorrow December 23rd, meaning that anyone with a SC game package can access the expanded Persistent Universe, including the three moons of Crusader, our new mission system, and the brand new cargo and commodity system. Just a reminder that this is still an Alpha build, so keep sending any bugs you find to the Issue Council. Apart from the improvements already made, there’s still a lot of work that has to be done to get the performance up to where we want it to be, but this will take a bit more time. Now that the team completed the heavy lifting to get the tech, content and systems for 3.0.0, they can focus on optimizations, feature consolidations, and polish for our first quarterly release.[/QUOTE] PTU still has imperfections, but they may have made some breakthroughs. Or, they still haven't learned their lesson and this is going to go horribly, one of the two. They could lower the max player cap per instance and gain performance just from doing that -- 50 is playably bad, but an instance with 32 would be more than acceptable most of the time. [hd]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpVzJiarjvc[/hd] The AtV special is now on YT [video=youtube;BHR1aEdTA4M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHR1aEdTA4M[/video] Here is just the vertical slice demo. [video=youtube;qcHAfaQh3QE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcHAfaQh3QE[/video] And Director's Commentary with CR, Sean "Smooth Criminal" Tracy and Dave Haddock.

With 3.0 going Live, that means we are going to get a new production schedule for SC, meaning we can potentially see how far away new game mechanics are, as well as when they (hope) to give us ArcCorp, right? (Provided, of course, that Arc Corp is still the next on the list for the PU still). Hopefully that [i]also[/i] means we can start getting content heavy/eyecandy ATVs as of next year again with the studio updates, and no more Burndown?

will she be named tongue wifu?

I wonder what it means for the server client performance when it goes live. It was sorta playable when I seemingly got a lower pop server but after some time it went down again. How can you actually check for players? Was still fun to fly some big ships, was kinda cool to fly with that long freighter.

[QUOTE=Lord Hayden;52999642]With 3.0 going Live, that means we are going to get a new production schedule for SC, meaning we can potentially see how far away new game mechanics are, as well as when they (hope) to give us ArcCorp, right? (Provided, of course, that Arc Corp is still the next on the list for the PU still). Hopefully that [i]also[/i] means we can start getting content heavy/eyecandy ATVs as of next year again with the studio updates, and no more Burndown?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]You will be able to see our updated Production Roadmap when the new RSI website goes live in January. Here are some shots on how this new format will look:[/QUOTE] Yes, the updated schedule report will be up in the new year and it should contain the roadmap for 2018 with regards to 3.1, 3.2, etc. ArcCorp is still slated for 3.1 as far as I know. Burndown came about to address the road to 3.0. Now that 3.0 is going live, I imagine AtV will return to its more normal schedule of showing us studio updates instead of Burndown. [QUOTE=Mitsuma;53000130]I wonder what it means for the server client performance when it goes live. It was sorta playable when I seemingly got a lower pop server but after some time it went down again. How can you actually check for players? Was still fun to fly some big ships, was kinda cool to fly with that long freighter.[/QUOTE] You can't check population count when you're in an instance. The only way to know how full one is is to have a friend join, and then when you go to join an instance, it'll give you the option of joining your friend's instance (instead of just a random one) and will show the population count.

I'm actually very disappointed they're pushing 3.0 to live. Opening PTU access to everyone was enough, imo.

[QUOTE=archangel125;53000294]I'm actually very disappointed they're pushing 3.0 to live. Opening PTU access to everyone was enough, imo.[/QUOTE] I feel like it's one of those things where since everyone has it, why not open the live servers as well? And who knows, maybe they found some miracle code. I know programming is weird and someone can put in a thing that suddenly fixes a bunch of things (or alternately, breaks everything because oops)

[QUOTE=Daemon White;53000302]I feel like it's one of those things where since everyone has it, why not open the live servers as well? And who knows, maybe they found some miracle code. I know programming is weird and someone can put in a thing that suddenly fixes a bunch of things (or alternately, breaks everything because oops)[/QUOTE] because its harder to test without access to the ships relevent to individual 3.0 mechanics, and people with that access often dont put in the testing time... pushing to live now hinders testing. i wouldnt have found the[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTHyMYBzc3Q"] trash nebulas[/URL] accumulating at the center of planets if i didnt have access to a ship that could bug out and teleport me there. Most peoples ships dont even have cargo room for the new trade mechanics.