Mount and Blade Series V2: Chamber n' Sidestep - Games

I have a theory: Remember the part where the man named Cordalos talked to you? I think that's the starting quest, like the merchant in Warband.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48452147]Being able to hit multiple people just dont make sense, at all. Not even as a design choice. You're already disencouraged from doing heavy swings in crowd-fighting by friendly fire (which isnt a problem in sp, granted), which, if you're a good player, will limit you to thrusts and upward attacks, unless you manage to clear an opening on your left or right. [/QUOTE] But for a "skilled" player all it takes is to land a hit on a single target to guarantee that all the damage from the swing is directed on [I]only[/I] that target. There needs to be a follow-through that poses a threat to teamates (or yourself if team-damage reflection is on)

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;48452176]But for a "skilled" player all it takes is to land a hit on a single target to guarantee that all the damage from the swing is directed on [I]only[/I] that target. There needs to be a follow-through that poses a threat to teamates (or yourself if team-damage reflection is on)[/QUOTE] ...yeah but if the person on the side is another enemy you'll hit him as well. Long spears and swords will just wreak havoc. If team damage is on, an actually skilled player will realise that crowd fighting is to be avoided OR just use thrusts and upward attacks in that case.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48452418]...yeah but if the person on the side is another enemy you'll hit him as well.[/QUOTE] That's two people who can attempt to block you instead of one. If the guy next to him has his shield up, you'll hit his shield and get stunlocked.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;48452811]That's two people who can attempt to block you instead of one. If the guy next to him has his shield up, you'll hit his shield and get stunlocked.[/QUOTE] and if the blow had stopped with the first guy the second would have a chance to strike anyway? I genuinely don't see the point.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48453115]and if the blow had stopped with the first guy the second would have a chance to strike anyway? I genuinely don't see the point.[/QUOTE] :glare: The blow doesn't stop with the first guy, and it's not supposed to [t]http://filesmelt.com/dl/mb_warband_2012-08-12_23-18-39-37.gif[/t] Sword swings in an ark > tip of sword cleaves through person/thing > sword continues onward in the same ark (ie: momentum and inertia) I'd agree there's a logical reduction in weapon speed after it hits the first thing, but it's not as if the piece of sharpened steel stops swinging the second it cuts through the first obstacle in it's path.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;48453563]:glare: The blow doesn't stop with the first guy, and it's not supposed to [t]http://filesmelt.com/dl/mb_warband_2012-08-12_23-18-39-37.gif[/t] Sword swings in an ark > tip of sword cleaves through person/thing > sword continues onward in the same ark (ie: momentum and inertia) I'd agree there's a logical reduction in weapon speed after it hits the first thing, but it's not as if the piece of sharpened steel stops swinging the second it cuts through the first obstacle in it's path.[/QUOTE] more like ie, game uses the same animation regardless of whether you hit because we cant afford colliding animation physics. Kindgom come deliverence looks like they're doing that properly, i remember mortal online used to do it properly. A sword doesnt just phase through a body.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48452178]even being stabbed by a dagger should kill a naked man, its pretty fuckin hard to recover from that though it would be awesome if they had an in between state for death/unconsiousness and being ready to fight a bleedout animation or something, would make more sense in singleplayer to save your guys from bleeding out by finishing a fight earlier, rather than them having x% chance of not dying upon losing all health[/QUOTE]If you wanted to go into full on autism mode, being stabbed even multiple times (while already in a fight) can have a negligible impact on your ability to fight back. Meanwhile, being stabbed once, while off guard, can drop you instantly (you are still very unlikely to die though unless they make sure to finish you). I've thought long and hard about ways to gamify physical damage, pain and adrenalin in a non-shit way, but mostly in the context of shooting people. One day, I'll actually make it part of a game.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;48454363]while it would be a cool idea, i feel like it being implemented in a game will piss people off because it prevents people from taking 20 enemies at all sides even when someone just rounded a corner whilst behind you hated that shit in mnb mp, sneaking up behind a dude only for him to spin 180 with his fuckoff greatsword to 1 hit me in the big toe[/QUOTE]It could though, depending on a lot of things. Big hits would cause debilitating pain that would put you on the ground, ripe for a finishing, but that would be mitigated by your current adrenalin level. At maximum adrenalin only physical damage, like "My Achilles is severed" or "There is an arrow in my neck and I am now inhaling arterial fluids" affects you. An even fight with daggers would be a case of two people becoming temporarily invincible, and inflicting a new stab wound every second while screaming until they both collapse together in a profusely leaking, gargling mess of meat goo.

Why not just have damage affect you like it does Horses in Floris The more you're hit, the less damage you deal, the less agile you are and the slower you attack+move

Mostly I'm looking forward to a revitalised multiplayer. I don't know if the expansion is still active but by the time I started playing Warband last year the servers had dried up.

[QUOTE=Mafia Insider;48456914]Mostly I'm looking forward to a revitalised multiplayer. I don't know if the expansion is still active but by the time I started playing Warband last year the servers had dried up.[/QUOTE] Theres always a couple full or near full servers active

Did 1257 AD get any recent updates? HOLY SHIT FULL INVASION 3 IS GONNA BE A THING LADS

Has anyone else just given up on mastering the art of spazzy naked greatsword-combat and taken up the mantle of sucker-punching people with spears from horseback?

[QUOTE=Jmir 54;48460933]Has anyone else just given up on mastering the art of spazzy naked greatsword-combat and taken up the mantle of sucker-punching people with spears from horseback?[/QUOTE] Whenever I can I play spearman in MP because it's fun as fuck

MP bored me massively when I went back to it in native last month so I just always took spear and shield, maybe with throwing weapons If you pull the spear back, turn 90 degrees and thrust it back in enough to generate some momentum its not actually [I]that[/I] terrible and it takes a lot of people by surprise, just not the sort that can wipe half the team with a sword and shield The reach you get, the simplicity of never having to worry about your weapon throwing a hissy fit and swinging the wrong way to which you intended as there's only one attack direction and the fact that blocking is easy make it an interesting experiment if nothing else Oh and just wielding the Spear, if you do it right, is just hilarious as it has the fastest swing speed of anything in the game. The challenge is managing to hit the great sword wielder 3-4 times without getting hit once.

Just played 1866 to see if it holds up. And holy shit it does. I wish someone ported it to Warband.

I hope that with the introduction of siege weaponry that besieging cities/castles will be more dynamic. If I'm supposedly slogging away at the enemy castle for two weeks, I'd like it to show. Walls beaten down, their/our numbers dropped significantly, huge gaps in defensive structures, etc. etc. Also, I hope we can choose what we use to scale the walls. Sometimes ladders are too open, and siege towers are too narrow. Battering rams would be kickass. I also hope that you'll be tasked with repairing the walls afterwards. Though it may sound like a chore, it'd be significantly more entertaining if you have to ensure that your castle is safe before you move on rather than "I'll stick some Knights and Crossbows in here and call it a day"

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48465830]I hope that with the introduction of siege weaponry that besieging cities/castles will be more dynamic. If I'm supposedly slogging away at the enemy castle for two weeks, I'd like it to show. Walls beaten down, their/our numbers dropped significantly, huge gaps in defensive structures, etc. etc. Also, I hope we can choose what we use to scale the walls. Sometimes ladders are too open, and siege towers are too narrow. Battering rams would be kickass. I also hope that you'll be tasked with repairing the walls afterwards. Though it may sound like a chore, it'd be significantly more entertaining if you have to ensure that your castle is safe before you move on rather than "I'll stick some Knights and Crossbows in here and call it a day"[/QUOTE] Meanwhile in Warband, it's extremely cheap and easy to just spam Rhodok Crossbowmen while your OP huscarls storm a Khergit castle. Honestly, the Khergits are underpowered if the AI uses them.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;48453563]:glare: The blow doesn't stop with the first guy, and it's not supposed to [t]http://filesmelt.com/dl/mb_warband_2012-08-12_23-18-39-37.gif[/t] Sword swings in an ark > tip of sword cleaves through person/thing > sword continues onward in the same ark (ie: momentum and inertia) I'd agree there's a logical reduction in weapon speed after it hits the first thing, but it's not as if the piece of sharpened steel stops swinging the second it cuts through the first obstacle in it's path.[/QUOTE] I see your point with the fact that when you're making a cut, you might not bite into flesh as much and that won't stop the blade. Ignoring the fact of just how weak an attack like that might be, it's something that becomes wildly irrelevant as soon as armour comes into play. Usually, you're striking. and if you strike hard enough, you might go through an entire person, but that won't leave you with any significant momentum at all to connect to the next person. My previous point was that if the blade doesnt stop with the first opponent and the second opponent blocks and strikes, its the same as if the blade stops with the first opponent because the second will one will have the same time to attack you. It really doesn't matter in those situations. [editline]15th August 2015[/editline] Being able to hit multiple opponents in one strike makes little sense in terms of gameplay balance and almost no sense in terms of anything realistic. You really have to have the intent of hitting two people if you want to actually pull that off IRL.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48465920]I see your point with the fact that when you're making a cut, you might not bite into flesh as much and that won't stop the blade. Ignoring the fact of just how weak an attack like that might be, it's something that becomes wildly irrelevant as soon as armour comes into play. Usually, you're striking. and if you strike hard enough, you might go through an entire person, but that won't leave you with any significant momentum at all to connect to the next person. [/QUOTE] The razor tip of a longsword in a hard arcing swing will be going somewhere in the realm of 12 meters/s or more. If the the tip tears through padded/mail armor, or just hits clothing or bare flesh then it will keep moving hard enough to badly injure anybody who is standing immediately in the way. If you cleave the entire sword straight into somebody's torso then yeah it's not going to keep moving, but that's generally not the intention of how to correctly use a sword. In armored longsword combat the intention is either to take arcing swings and try to transfer all the force of the strike into the tip of the weapon (the tip is the sharpest and moving the fastest) or you just try to thrust the sword through or around the persons armor. I did notice in the combat footage (where the player character kills the three looters) that on the first kill when she just slashes the first guy with the tip o the longsword, it goes through him (as it should) and the weapon has a follow-through. As apposed to the second looter where she cleaves him, you hear a loud clatter and he goes flying, and the sword stops. There is no follow-through on the second one, the weapon hits him, and then stops. [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/6ux8q3.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://i.cubeupload.com/pDSVP5.gif[/IMG] So they may have already thought this out. If you hit somebody with the tip, the sword continues. If you more sloppily hit them half way down the blade, it stops when it hits them, and (hopefully) has no follow-through that can damage other people because the full force of the swing was spent on the first thing it hit.

[QUOTE=lockdown6;48470300]I could be wrong but it looks like the sword keeps going and only stops because it hits the big rock on the left in the second gif[/QUOTE] The sword stops way before the attack even passes onto the left side of the player character though. I doubt they've fucked up with oversized environment hitboxes when they never did with warband.

[QUOTE=Falchion;48470356]The sword stops way before the attack even passes onto the left side of the player character though. I doubt they've fucked up with oversized environment hitboxes when they never did with warband.[/QUOTE]Hitting the environment has never really lined up with the animation well. You can slice through poles as you hit them or hit them without visually contacting at all.

[QUOTE=hypno-toad;48466998]The razor tip of a longsword in a hard arcing swing will be going somewhere in the realm of 12 meters/s or more. If the the tip tears through padded/mail armor, or just hits clothing or bare flesh then it will keep moving hard enough to badly injure anybody who is standing immediately in the way. [B]If you cleave the entire sword straight into somebody's torso then yeah it's not going to keep moving, but that's generally not the intention of how to correctly use a sword. In armored longsword combat the intention is either to take arcing swings and try to transfer all the force of the strike into the tip of the weapon (the tip is the sharpest and moving the fastest) or you just try to thrust the sword through or around the persons armor.[/B] [/QUOTE] I'll start with saying that if Taleworlds intention is the one you found, I'll bury my hatchet and see what it actually is like in-game before giving further judgment. However, I have to adress the bolded part. First of all, if we concern ourselves with the unarmoured part of longsword fencing (blossfechten), there's a base physical concept that applies to all bladed weapons called the Point of Percussion. In short, the point of percussion is the point on the blade that will transfer the most energy into whatever it's hitting. And no matter what blade you're using, the point of percussion is what you want to hit with. It's worth noting that longswords designed to deal with full plate armour actually had a long taper towards the point, and therefore a point of percussion about 2/3rds up on the blade. If you were to try and strike with the tip of a sword like that on plate armour, you are more likely to completely break off the tip. The point is it doesn't matter if the point is the fastest, because it's physically impossible to transfer energy to the point. The point of percussion will always be where it is. On a point heavy blade it might be very close to the point. Blades like falchions springs to mind. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4zwyVw4NdA[/media] Here's a bit more on the point of percussion, and there's another vid by the same guy where he does it on different swords. (including a viking sword with less taper) My second point is that swords in the medieval age were by and large always sharpened the entire way. There is no solid evidence that proves otherwise. Thirdly, when fighting against armoured people (if we're talking exclusively longsword here) what you said doesn't make much sense. Why would you want to strike only with the tip against mail and let alone plate? As mentioned before, against those types you might break the tip, and even against light armour like a gambeson, you will still not do any significant damage. Thrusting on and around is more in line with what you would do, but this of course falls in line with half-swording, which I think is common knowledge by now. In those instances, you either thrust towards the weakspots of the armour (face, under shoulders, armpits, etc) or try to use it as a small lever in which you topple the other guy with. And then a final, but a bit shorter point on strikes vs. cuts. The older german masters make a difference between a strike and a cut. Usually in a strike, you are leveling the sword with your arms. In a cut, the point is probably trailing behind. [url=https://talhoffer.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/on-strikes-in-medieval-german-fight-books/]here's[/url] a very long post on the subject of strikes, and an attempt at understanding the mechanics (do note that we do not know at all the exact biomechanical mysteries that go in a sword swing). A small quote is all we need(for now): [quote]Thus the strongest strike will start with the shoulders, continue with the elbow, and end with the wrist[/quote] This also implies that at the time you hit, you will have extended your arm fully. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZKmbCx2Pvk[/media] I don't have a good video of strikes, as most practitioners prefer to do cuts, but here's a video with cuts. As you can see, the point is trailing a bit behind in several of his motions. The reason I'm making this point about cuts vs. thrusts is because of point number one: point of percussion. It's very important when performing strikes, but even more so when doing cuts, as you're already drawing your point short with a cut, you might miss entirely if you try to aim only with the point. With all this in mind, I still consider the idea of hitting two people in one strike to be quite difficult and not something you'd intend to do in real life, however, I am willing to see if there's any possible compromise Taleworlds have done with their solution. After all, the game isn't all about realism, and I'll gladly accept anything that feels well-balanced and makes the game more fun for everyone playing. If you want to discuss the points made in this post further, you're welcome to visit the [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1456747]HEMA[/url] thread, where discussions like this and similar are our bread and butter.

[QUOTE=G-Strogg;48471330] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZKmbCx2Pvk[/media] [/QUOTE] What is this video even? If you ever held a proper steel sword you would know it's at least 5 kilos heavy. If anyone tried these moves with a real sword his sword would just drop to the ground in minutes. I did historical fencing for a year and it's crazy. You don't move your wrists like that unless they are made of steel because literally one hit to your blade and you loose hold of it. Hell, I remember when people lost hold of swords because the angle between the bade and the wrist was a little more than 90. You just swing and you loose it because it's fucking heavy.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48472124]What is this video even? If you ever held a proper steel sword you would know it's at least 5 kilos heavy. If anyone tried these moves with a real sword his sword would just drop to the ground in minutes. I did historical fencing for a year and it's crazy. You don't move your wrists like that unless they are made of steel because literally one hit to your blade and you loose hold of it. Hell, I remember when people lost hold of swords because the angle between the bade and the wrist was a little more than 90. You just swing and you loose it because it's fucking heavy.[/QUOTE] Obvious bait but thanks for trying.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48472124]What is this video even? If you ever held a proper steel sword you would know it's at least 5 kilos heavy. If anyone tried these moves with a real sword his sword would just drop to the ground in minutes. I did historical fencing for a year and it's crazy. You don't move your wrists like that unless they are made of steel because literally one hit to your blade and you loose hold of it. Hell, I remember when people lost hold of swords because the angle between the bade and the wrist was a little more than 90. You just swing and you loose it because it's fucking heavy.[/QUOTE] A 5 kilo Longsword is a very badly made sword, they usually weigh around 1.5 kilos. Even large two handed swords don't and shouldn't weigh more than 3 kilos and that's pushing it.

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;48472227]A 5 kilo Longsword is a very badly made sword, they usually weigh around 1.5 kilos. Even large two handed swords don't and shouldn't weigh more than 3 kilos and that's pushing it.[/QUOTE] We used to practice with sticks with metal bent around them. They were 1.5 kilos and we called them children swords. People could do mad things with 5 kilo swords and the momentum was intense. You practically can't hope to deal damage to an armored person with a 1.5 kilo swords because you might as well bash them with a stick at that point. Plastic swords that people take to role playing games weigh around 1.5 kilos. But that's more a rapier imitation because usually people use fencing techniques when fighting with them. That's what my trainer told me anyway. And from what I have seen during our training it seemed absolutely logical. Wikipedia contradicts me, but I am just telling what I have seen with my eyes.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48472811]We used to practice with sticks with metal bent around them. They were 1.5 kilos and we called them children swords. People could do mad things with 5 kilo swords and the momentum was intense. You practically can't hope to deal damage to an armored person with a 1.5 kilo swords because you might as well bash them with a stick at that point. Plastic swords that people take to role playing games weigh around 1.5 kilos. But that's more a rapier imitation because usually people use fencing techniques when fighting with them. That's what my trainer told me anyway. And from what I have seen during our training it seemed absolutely logical. Wikipedia contradicts me, but I am just telling what I have seen with my eyes.[/QUOTE] I'm really, very sorry, but you've been lied to. Noone used weapons that heavy in any medieval fight, be it on the battlefield or for duels. Only notable exception I could think of is the duel shield, but I don't think even those weighed 5kg.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;48472811]We used to practice with sticks with metal bent around them. They were 1.5 kilos and we called them children swords. People could do mad things with 5 kilo swords and the momentum was intense. You practically can't hope to deal damage to an armored person with a 1.5 kilo swords because you might as well bash them with a stick at that point. Plastic swords that people take to role playing games weigh around 1.5 kilos. But that's more a rapier imitation because usually people use fencing techniques when fighting with them. That's what my trainer told me anyway. And from what I have seen during our training it seemed absolutely logical. Wikipedia contradicts me, but I am just telling what I have seen with my eyes.[/QUOTE] Even the heaviest greatswords rarely went over 4.5kg at most, usually less, any heavier and they're probably ceremonial pieces more than actual combat ones. Heavy as fuck swords also don't make any particular sense, because, yes, while you may do more damage with a heavier sword blow for blow, you're also going to get worn out and knackered pretty fucking quickly, and possibly die due to being exhausted.