Sonic General Discussion Thread v1 - Games

[QUOTE=redBadger;52808888]I just don't like the short level design. Most unleashed stages I can run in 4:30 average while generation's is more like 2:30.[/QUOTE] I actually lied my best times for most unleashed stages are from 2:00 to 4:00 :cool:

I hate that I have to say this but Forces looks like the perfect example of a true 5/10 game. Looking at it as it's own thing not connected to other games it looks... playable. Nothing amazing but nothing bad. It looks like the perfect example of a mediocre game. The problem is that mediocre game is following up Mania which is a solid 10 outta 10, not to mention the fact it's part of a series that has had all the time in the world to nail a direction the series should be going in. Sonic has been around in 3D for almost 20 years and to this day it's still only capable of finding success on total accident. You'd really expect better at this point.

[QUOTE=Sift;52809506]I hate that I have to say this but Forces looks like the perfect example of a true 5/10 game. Looking at it as it's own thing not connected to other games it looks... playable. Nothing amazing but nothing bad. It looks like the perfect example of a mediocre game. The problem is that mediocre game is following up Mania which is a solid 10 outta 10, not to mention the fact it's part of a series that has had all the time in the world to nail a direction the series should be going in. Sonic has been around in 3D for almost 20 years and to this day it's still only capable of finding success on total accident. You'd really expect better at this point.[/QUOTE] If you look up the definition of insanity, it will show a picture of all recent Sonic games. Like, modern Sonic by himself is FINE. Stop adding new gameplay elements that nobody asked for. I was so hype when I saw the first trailer and subsequent trailers. The moment the avatar was revealed I lost all hope. It's a less shit version of the Werehog, stripping Sonic of the usual Wisp abilities and just giving them to some OC schmuck. Furthermore, Sonic losing abilities like the drift and the forward dash (though the double jump serves the same purpose but still) worry me that it will be too on-rails and automated. Oh well. Hopefully modding can fix this. I'm just so upset that nobody over at Sonic Team really seem to have any sort of direction. Just make another Unleashed, take away the Werehog, make a good 12-16 good, lengthy modern stages and a shit ton of challenge stages and call it a day. No need for other characters to fill in gameplay gaps - the speed / boost gameplay is great - expand on it instead of coming up with new concepts that don't work or aren't interesting. Every game Modern Sonic is being robbed of gameplay time. Like you don't see the next Mario game using "CLASSIC MARIO!!!" as a crutch to fill in voids in gameplay.

[QUOTE=redBadger;52809761]If you look up the definition of insanity, it will show a picture of all recent Sonic games. Like, modern Sonic by himself is FINE. Stop adding new gameplay elements that nobody asked for. I was so hype when I saw the first trailer and subsequent trailers. The moment the avatar was revealed I lost all hope. It's a less shit version of the Werehog, stripping Sonic of the usual Wisp abilities and just giving them to some OC schmuck. Furthermore, Sonic losing abilities like the drift and the forward dash (though the double jump serves the same purpose but still) worry me that it will be too on-rails and automated. Oh well. Hopefully modding can fix this. I'm just so upset that nobody over at Sonic Team really seem to have any sort of direction. Just make another Unleashed, take away the Werehog, make a good 12-16 good, lengthy modern stages and a shit ton of challenge stages and call it a day. No need for other characters to fill in gameplay gaps - the speed / boost gameplay is great - expand on it instead of coming up with new concepts that don't work or aren't interesting. Every game Modern Sonic is being robbed of gameplay time. Like you don't see the next Mario game using "CLASSIC MARIO!!!" as a crutch to fill in voids in gameplay.[/QUOTE] It's because the way modern Sonic is built doesn't allow them to get enough mileage out of the formula to create a proper sized game. Boost levels are huge, require a large amount of resources and generally has pretty shallow gameplay, so they introduced elements like the Werehog to create a longer game, even in the Sonic Adventure games they always created more characters to make the game longer, and Sonic Forces is no different. The only boost game that is a pretty decent length is Colours, however it features tons of shorter, less speed oriented stages, which is what Forces is doing too. They need to create a 3D gameplay style that doesn't rely on shallow mechanics, large resource consuming levels and automation to make a game that doesn't require more characters to increase the amount of content.

Or just get Tails and Knuckles into the mix, with their gameplay opening the way to slow down and explore the very same levels Sonic can blast through with ease. 3&K did that, Mania did that, the Advance trilogy did that.

The reason why Modern Sonic is filled with so many filler crutches and some sort of gimmicky alternate playstyle is due to logistics. Mapping out, creating unique assets for, and rendering / creating the lighting for literal miles worth of landscape that the level design conforms to (as well as miles-long levels themselves) is both expensive and daunting as all hell. They had the budget to pour into Unleashed, anyone can see that plain as day, but the game didn't sell so well so each game after has tried to downsize that in some way. One may point to the Sonic Adventure games as a counterpoint, but Sonic Adventure is honestly even more block-like and asset-reusage heavy than the average Boost formula game, and they didn't have to worry nearly as much about assets, geometry and lighting as they do in today's HD age. So in the end they make extra shit on top to pad things out or add 'variety' because making nothing but Modern Sonic stages would be pretty taxing if the game were to be of any reasonable length by themselves. Looking at the Avatar stages for Forces so far, they definitely reuse the fuck out of a lot of assets between Classic and Modern's stages, and Episode Shadow is literally level creator-esque boxes and platforms so far placed onto pre-existing geometry to cut down on development effort for a free DLC. This one veers more into personal opinion, but the constant intrusion of 2D gameplay for Modern Sonic is even more of a crutch in that regard as well, as it lets them slow down the pacing or more easily constrain the level design and also cut down on how much they have to render and focus on at the same time. The fact that Classic Sonic in Generations (and probably Forces) is just a slowed down Modern Sonic with different abilities on top in terms of the code exemplifies that they're design shortcuts altogether rather than distinctly for the sake of variety. The people that headed up Colors and Lost World being in charge of Forces is only icing on the cake; a lot of these problems have existed and been passed around in discussion before, especially with Colors' excess padding of rearranged level challenges and Lost World using its art design and experimental new gameplay as an excuse for simple geometry and dumbed down level design, but Forces is just bringing them all to the spotlight prominently.

[QUOTE=Intermission;52809881]It's because the way modern Sonic is built doesn't allow them to get enough mileage out of the formula to create a proper sized game. Boost levels are huge, require a large amount of resources and generally has pretty shallow gameplay, so they introduced elements like the Werehog to create a longer game, even in the Sonic Adventure games they always created more characters to make the game longer, and Sonic Forces is no different. The only boost game that is a pretty decent length is Colours, however it features tons of shorter, less speed oriented stages, which is what Forces is doing too. They need to create a 3D gameplay style that doesn't rely on shallow mechanics, large resource consuming levels and automation to make a game that doesn't require more characters to increase the amount of content.[/QUOTE] I don't think boost Sonic's gameplay is shallow at all. Regardless, isn't the whole point of the Hedgehog Engine to make it easier to create huge levels with relative ease?

[QUOTE=redBadger;52809966]I don't think boost Sonic's gameplay is shallow at all. Regardless, isn't the whole point of the Hedgehog Engine to make it easier to create huge levels with relative ease?[/QUOTE] It is very one note. Sonic blasts through levels with ease, very little being a threat to him, and he has this wide array of moves while having to use none of them in tandem with eachother.

SA2 should've seriously always been like, the basis bible for design in 3D Sonic after it had come out and I don't know what the fuck happened. Like, all they needed to do was keep improving on that formula. Imagine if they'd stuck with that and just continuously improved game after game. Where would we be today?

[QUOTE=The Civ;52809980]SA2 should've seriously always been like, the basis bible for design in 3D Sonic after it had come out and I don't know what the fuck happened. Like, all they needed to do was keep improving on that formula. Imagine if they'd stuck with that and just continuously improved game after game. Where would we be today?[/QUOTE] Sonic Adventure 1, you mean, yes?

[QUOTE=redBadger;52809966]I don't think boost Sonic's gameplay is shallow at all. Regardless, isn't the whole point of the Hedgehog Engine to make it easier to create huge levels with relative ease?[/QUOTE] The Hedgehog Engine is rendering and lighting. It doesn't actually factor into physics (which as far as I know are still Havok) or the core game design code, asset design beyond necessities for them to work or so forth.

[QUOTE=Intermission;52809996]Sonic Adventure 1, you mean, yes?[/QUOTE] May I ask how Sonic's gameplay may be superior in 1 compared to 2?

I only say SA2 because at least in my mind it fixed a lot of the issues with the first game already. Adventure Fields aren't necessarily a bad idea but they were never really well handled, and there's even rumors that they were used in very early versions of SA2 but dropped after they ran into the same clumsiness they encountered with them in the first game. I like jumping level to level with the cutscene being the breather, not a 5 minute trek to the next level, dragging a stone from one side of the world to the other. And beyond that I feel the focus on three set gameplay styles each with unique stages worked a hell of a lot better than six characters that reused the same stages, and two of which are just straight up not very interesting. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy SA1, but by the end of the game when you're rounding off the Amy or Big, or whoever you saved for last playthrough, and you've gone through the Egg Carrier levels how many times it begins to feel a bit like a chore no matter how you look at it. Even though it still could've been improved a hell of a lot, SA2 at least felt like it had some sort of story. Half of the time in SA1 I was waiting for something to build up and happen, and it all just felt like going to places to do things while the spooky water man gets stronger in the background. At least in SA2 I felt like I was actually going on an Adventure to save the world.

[QUOTE=Eriorguez;52810006]May I ask how Sonic's gameplay may be superior in 1 compared to 2?[/QUOTE] It's the level design. Expanding on Sonic Adventure 1's level design and platforming leaves more fun opportunities than SA2's tubes, and perhaps it's also because in Sonic Adventure 1 I don't have to play other characters that are terrible for the most part.

If you are talking about huge levels here, and how Sonic Team with their engines can't handle them, then why won't hire the same ex-employees of Naughty Dog that worked on Sonic Boom? They can handle it, and Sonic Boom is the proof.

[t]https://i.redd.it/zfne15w8tftz.png[/t] Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not sure it is confirmed that this is an official account.

[QUOTE=Megalan;52811560][t]https://i.redd.it/zfne15w8tftz.png[/t] Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not sure it is confirmed that this is an official account.[/QUOTE] [url]https://go.twitch.tv/sonicofficial[/url] Totally didn't think it would be, but it is.

I'm at least somewhat glad that Blaze isn't in Forces so she couldn't be reduced to cheerleader/love interest role again.

[QUOTE=Noob4life;52812012]I'm at least somewhat glad that Blaze isn't in Forces so she couldn't be reduced to cheerleader/love interest role again.[/QUOTE] I dunno, I think it's pretty dumb to include Silver but not include Blaze. I know continuity in Sonic games is shit but it's pretty dumb that Blaze is able to visit Sonic's birthday in Generations but when everything has gone to shit in Forces she/resistance has decided her help is not needed.

[QUOTE=Megalan;52811560][t]https://i.redd.it/zfne15w8tftz.png[/t] Take this with a grain of salt, I'm not sure it is confirmed that this is an official account.[/QUOTE] According to this same twitch stream, there is an easy mode along with the normal mode. Easy mode caps your rings at 100 but allow you to take 5 hits. Normal let's you collect infinite number of rings but one hit loses all.

[QUOTE=Megalan;52812025]I dunno, I think it's pretty dumb to include Silver but not include Blaze. I know continuity in Sonic games is shit but it's pretty dumb that Blaze is able to visit Sonic's birthday in Generations but when everything has gone to shit in Forces she/resistance has decided her help is not needed.[/QUOTE] the further away from silver blaze gets the closer to god's light we get

[t]https://pre00.deviantart.net/b6cd/th/pre/f/2017/297/b/2/universal_fallout__a_continuity_idea__by_shieltar-dbrkcz2.jpg[/t] [QUOTE]In the archie comics Robotnic destroyed the universe in a fit of spite. and Supersonic put it back together. resulting in the reboot we got some months ago. But traveling into the sonic universes multiverse Sonic comes across an alternate version of Sally. Queen of a world so fractured the sky doesn't know if it's night or day, he discovers that apparently he didn't do as good a job at fixing the results of the genisis wave as he thought he did. This was an idea I had of how IDW could continue the Archie universe and include remnants and nods towards the pre reset cannon via the Remenant Relm. I have sent this to IDW some weeks ago. I have heard nothing. so I'm assuming there either not interested, or didn't notice. Either way Salix is supposed to be an alternate universe version of Sally acorn, who has become ruler of all that remains of the non franchise universes, who was forced to merge her body and soul with Sonic in order to continue to exist. The up side, she now has sonic speed. The down side, the guilt, and a ceaseless drive to bring an end to this senseless slow destruction of everything at any cost. Making her either an impossible foe, or a powerful ally. It all hangs in the balance. [/QUOTE] [URL="https://shieltar.deviantart.com/art/Universal-fallout-a-continuity-idea-711427502"]Universal fallout (a continuity idea)[/URL] Pretty interesting concept

So I noticed something after playing a bit of Generations. The Forces classic sonic level design seems a ton more accurate to classic sonic games then Generations did. I think in part due to the like of cinematic camera movements and turns to make the stage more flashy. But looking back at Casino Forest and the Green Hill stage they definitely seem to have made a ton more paths. [editline]25th October 2017[/editline] [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZeS_67EUtE[/media] Demo came out for Japan, locked to 60 seconds per stage.

Why? Why did SEGA do this? What are they hiding? The fact that their levels are too short anyhow?

I figure it's more of an assurance that the Switch port isn't as sucky as some claimed it to be?

[QUOTE=chipsnapper2;52820183]Why? Why did SEGA do this? What are they hiding? The fact that their levels are too short anyhow?[/QUOTE] Aren't Japanese devs notorious for time limits?

Doesn't matter anyway. You can finish Moderns section with a single button press and everything else is as lackluster as you already figured.

Wow that video. Where are the alternative paths? Where is the multidimensional level design? Why is that so boringly linear?

[QUOTE=Sift;52820315]Doesn't matter anyway. You can finish Moderns section with a single button press and everything else is as lackluster as you already figured.[/QUOTE] [url=https://twitter.com/CyclonX_/status/923219462593105921]Well you weren't being too sarcastic.[/url] It's about as automated and meh as we thought. Modern's stages aren't 100% railroads but as per usual that typically means the 2D sections branch off low and high paths before reuniting to a main one. At Retro, someone realized that once you approach the Ramps, at the very least the Avatar even automatically runs on their own and direct themselves to always hit them as they do the loops. It's the 'boost to win' meme taken seriously at face value for a rollercoaster ride that everyone had derided the previous Boost games for, taken to its logical extreme.

[QUOTE=Antimuffin;52820341]Wow that video. Where are the alternative paths? Where is the multidimensional level design? Why is that so boringly linear?[/QUOTE] There was one high path that the guy missed and one low path from what I saw.