Star Citizen Megathread - Star Marine isn't doomed after all! - Games

[QUOTE=_Axel;50850821]Does the ship selling thing really add complexity to the project? It would be more fitting if you were talking about the numerous stretchgoals IMO, those require actual significant work on the game mechanics from various sectors. Creating more ships however doesn't mobilize your entire workforce. Creating more assets is adding to the breadth of the project, not its depth, and I think the latter is more of an issue when it comes to SC.[/QUOTE] Ships with gimmicks do create more work beyond the artists needed to make the ship itself. The science ship, for example, will require someone to design, code, and implement all the minigames and other crap required for it to perform 'science'.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;50848773]I haven't watched the whole thing yet, but it's a pretty balanced and critical look at the whole situation (SC does not get a free ride). Halfway in, however, the topic turns to dumbshit. Said dumbshit has been having a meltdown on Twitter since.[/QUOTE] imagine being disgusting enough of a person to trawl through someones personal life/past/family to dig up dirt and then being upset someone called you a stalker [editline]9th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Big Bang;50850564]That of course coupled with how the project seems to be engineered to fulfill the fantasies of its upper management, like how Sandi gets all those fancy, fancy co-stars for her IMDB page in order to launch her Hollywood career (All while getting paid more than fucking Gary Oldman) or how Chris gets to go on vacation, first class, basically every other month, in these extremely lavish locations, all on backer funds. You can [I]not[/I] talk about the project without talking about who the management is, they complete the full picture. They show where the money has been going, the uncomfortable truth is that these people are like fucking televangelists, selling you hopes and dreams for cash, letting you to your dreams while they live it large.[/QUOTE] oh god, you don't learn do you? we literally just watched a video about rationality vs rumors

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50850564]Lol, "at times". The scam angle is a lot simpler than this guy is making it out to be. The game started out as a legitimate idea, the original Kickstarter pitch, the first couple of years, all legitimate. People wanted a modern version of Wing Commander, that was what was promised, and that was it was...For a time. Then things started to balloon out of control very damn quickly as apparently somebody forgot they can [I]stop[/I] accepting money and just work with the budget they have, but the project scope scaled to an absurd, massive, impossible size that will not be realized now, nor next year, nor ever. What Chris Roberts wants to do, can't be done. Why is it a scam? Because to cover the ever increasing production costs they have to continue to sell ships which keep adding complexity to the project, which creates a negative fuckloop as the project scope again continues to balloon with every ship added, as every ship must adhere to Chris Roberts arbitrary standards of what "fidelity" is, and his "vision". Resulting in of course, things like movement feeling like shit, but ship toilets being fully operational. The game isn't there, it's nowhere near done, and they're banking on you imagining it all, and they're not going to make a game any time soon. That of course coupled with how the project seems to be engineered to fulfill the fantasies of its upper management, like how Sandi gets all those fancy, fancy co-stars for her IMDB page in order to launch her Hollywood career (All while getting paid more than fucking Gary Oldman) or how Chris gets to go on vacation, first class, basically every other month, in these extremely lavish locations, all on backer funds. You can [I]not[/I] talk about the project without talking about who the management is, they complete the full picture. They show where the money has been going, the uncomfortable truth is that these people are like fucking televangelists, selling you hopes and dreams for cash, letting you to your dreams while they live it large. The way that backers have been cultivated into being extremely, and I do mean [I]extremely[/I] careless with their money, constantly decrying any attempt at getting some accountability out of CIG as "FUD campaigns" and sabotage (or otherwise blaming it all on the boogeyman Derek Smart, a man stupid enough to not see how he's being used as part of the scam), only serves to aid the wills of the management. The longer this project takes the more they can continue to live the life and enrich themselves with nobody asking any questions. They have no commitment to sales, no commitment to deliver a product until like 2020, and backers have been trained into being satisfied with just getting a minute part of what they were promised. Like really I'm not asking too much of you lot, act like investors, demand accountability. I already know every single word the thread regulars are going to say in reply, but just, please, [I]get angry at the right people[/I]. Realize that if this project collapses its ripple effects will be felt for decades.[/QUOTE] So many people are afraid to think that this project can fail that they refuse to consider it. I pledged knowing that i might or might not receive what Chris is dreaming about. But this is fine. I'm just gonna wait while playing other games. I hope it won't become another StarForge. (I pledged quite a bit for it) This is still not a scam, because they themself don't think of it as scam. If anything it's just poorly managed project where someone forgot to set boundaries and forgot to limit scope.

I have no doubt that the game will be finished, but I just finished that video and I will say again what I've said before - the primary problem is one of terrible, terrible, utterly terribad project management. Scope creep is [I]real[/I]. As much as I joke about it, working for a NASA contractor means I get to watch the scope creep live :v: At some point you have to do one of three things when it comes to scope creep: 1. Veto it or cancel the decisions that increased the scope 2. Increase the funding, increase personnel, and delay the delivery date. 3. Do a combination of the above and subdivide the project further by delegating to your trusted subproject managers. #3 comes from a conference I went to on project management from Boeing, if anything being probably #2-3 experts in the world when it comes to scope creep lol. I don't think I have all the answers, and I could be entirely wrong, but my personal belief is that the scope needs to stop creepin' and chris roberts needs to learn to let go of his baby (the game) before he [I]lenny's the fuck out of it[/I]. delegate, dude!

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50850564]Lol, "at times". The scam angle is a lot simpler than this guy is making it out to be. The game started out as a legitimate idea, the original Kickstarter pitch, the first couple of years, all legitimate. People wanted a modern version of Wing Commander, that was what was promised, and that was it was...For a time. Then things started to balloon out of control very damn quickly as apparently somebody forgot they can [I]stop[/I] accepting money and just work with the budget they have, but the project scope scaled to an absurd, massive, impossible size that will not be realized now, nor next year, nor ever. What Chris Roberts wants to do, can't be done. Why is it a scam? Because to cover the ever increasing production costs they have to continue to sell ships which keep adding complexity to the project, which creates a negative fuckloop as the project scope again continues to balloon with every ship added, as every ship must adhere to Chris Roberts arbitrary standards of what "fidelity" is, and his "vision". Resulting in of course, things like movement feeling like shit, but ship toilets being fully operational. The game isn't there, it's nowhere near done, and they're banking on you imagining it all, and they're not going to make a game any time soon. That of course coupled with how the project seems to be engineered to fulfill the fantasies of its upper management, like how Sandi gets all those fancy, fancy co-stars for her IMDB page in order to launch her Hollywood career (All while getting paid more than fucking Gary Oldman) or how Chris gets to go on vacation, first class, basically every other month, in these extremely lavish locations, all on backer funds. You can [I]not[/I] talk about the project without talking about who the management is, they complete the full picture. They show where the money has been going, the uncomfortable truth is that these people are like fucking televangelists, selling you hopes and dreams for cash, letting you to your dreams while they live it large. The way that backers have been cultivated into being extremely, and I do mean [I]extremely[/I] careless with their money, constantly decrying any attempt at getting some accountability out of CIG as "FUD campaigns" and sabotage (or otherwise blaming it all on the boogeyman Derek Smart, a man stupid enough to not see how he's being used as part of the scam), only serves to aid the wills of the management. The longer this project takes the more they can continue to live the life and enrich themselves with nobody asking any questions. They have no commitment to sales, no commitment to deliver a product until like 2020, and backers have been trained into being satisfied with just getting a minute part of what they were promised. Like really I'm not asking too much of you lot, act like investors, demand accountability. I already know every single word the thread regulars are going to say in reply, but just, please, [I]get angry at the right people[/I]. Realize that if this project collapses its ripple effects will be felt for decades.[/QUOTE] Yeaaah, see. You've talked a lot about what the situation could be, according to your particular perspective, if the rest of us really, [I]really[/I] stretch our imaginations to fit the narrative you're trying so damn hard to push. But you still haven't given us a single good reason the project is doomed to fail. Granted, Star Citizen certainly never had this scope when it was pitched. And as the video pointed out, he held a vote among backers on whether they should keep gathering money, or roll with what they got. The community spoke. However, after the project reached 60m in donations, and the scope of it began to creep beyond what CIG thought they'd manage, they decided to put an end to stretch goals at last, and stop expanding the project's scope. Chris Roberts pointed out in a recent interview that the cost of maintaining a team of over five hundred employees and actually being able to finish the game was to continue releasing concept ships. These ships only require a fraction of their available manpower to complete - Look at the Starfarer, the Vanguard, the Khartu'al, the Reliant - All of them went from whitebox to greybox to complete very, very quickly, and CIG was able to continue adding to the framework of the game the entire time. So having established that adding new ships to the mix is NOT going to make the scope of the game unmanageable, let's move on to the cast of actors. Star Citizen has accrued over the course of its development money enough to rival the development budget of [I]huge[/I] Triple A titles, like GTA V (Though still around 30m less than the development budget of that game). Hiring well known actors - some of whom have worked with Chris Roberts in the past - to deliver an experience worthy of such a large development budget - is not too great a stretch. Think about what you're suggesting for a moment. That all of this is a big, elaborate, expensive plan to jump-start Sandi Gardiner's acting career. [I]Really?[/I] I will give you that the CIG community on the official forums and sometimes on the subreddit have too toxic and hostile a disposition by far, but that does not mean that backers aren't responsible enough with their money to choose where they may spend it. Nor does it mean, as you seem to imagine, that they're all fools led on by a zealous admiration of Chris Roberts and his promises. It must make you feel good to imagine you're one of the few who can see clearly in a mass of idiots, but to my mind there's an awful lot you're either deliberately ignoring, or completely oblivious to. I'm also going to point out that a 'scam' that is spending the money it is scamming on exactly what the backers are paying for - is not a scam at all. You're just insisting it is for some irrational reason completely unfathomable to us - You've said time and time again that you know beyond a reasonable doubt that the game will never be finished, but you've completely failed to put forth a compelling, reasonable argument to convince us. The best you've come up with in the past is "I'm an expert on netcode and the netcode in this game isn't done yet, therefore it is a scam." Should Chris Roberts and CIG be held accountable if the project fails? Absolutely. Do I have doubts about the competency of their management structure? Sure. Am I frustrated by how long the wait has been, and angry that they promised us dates they didn't even come close to delivering on? Shit yeah. And yes, Cryengine and it's netcode issues worry me. But am I worried this thing's a scam? No. Not even by your ridiculous definition. Sure it could fail, but the fact five hundred people are currently working to make it happen, and demonstrating the progress they're making every single week, indicates that maybe, just maybe, they really think they can do it. This isn't the first time we've had this conversation. You're entitled to your opinion, but you're dead wrong.

Come on guys, I only JUST got a fresh bottle of rum. I don't wanna run empty so soon...

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;50850300]He added several overlapping annotations to censor Derek's email address[/QUOTE] Can't we just... turn off the annotations?

just saw the caterpillar update video, holy fuck i am aroused, but goddamnit I can feel my ol' 570 trying to kill itself already

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Squadron 42 was a stretch goal? It's right at the $2m mark and as I recall it was always a core feature. I remember a while back when I was still following this closely people were saying that the PU was a stretch goal. Is this just a thing with SC where people talk about feature creep and eventually everything was a stretch goal all along?

They priortize ships probably cause ships are a major part of the game. And to get SQ42 out, they need the main ships finished. As for other features, I'm sure they have dedicated teams to work on them. I doubt a majority of the devs are purely focused on ship making. The last few updates and the ones coming up soon add quite a bit of the planned features to the game. If procedural planets do come soon, that would be pretty damn big feature to have. As for the funds being misused, I'd love to see your sources. [editline]9th August 2016[/editline] Are you also admitting to making a gimmick account for trolling?

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do... do you actually think this is like a rockstar lifestyle or something? you know that boat rides and first class flights are possible when you've had a long, successful career? no... no clearly its the result of millions of backer dollars being misappropriated [QUOTE=Big Bang;50853664]My sources are good though, they've proven themselves, and you should look forward to Gamescom![/QUOTE] am I actually speaking to derek right now? what an honor

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[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853708]Long successful career doing what dude, lol? Do you think he got filthy rich off Wing Commander? The last game on the franchise was released 20 years ago, the movie flopped, every single other movie he was listed on as a producer flopped, and he was a used car salesman up until the Kickstarter. Where did these extensive riches come from? How many other video game directors that you know of are having exotic vacations every 3-4 months?[/QUOTE] How many other video game directors get watched and scrutinized this closely? How many others do people pay this much attention to and point out everytime they do something? When any other developers go on holiday no one would care, but because it's Chris Roberts and Star Citizen it gets mentioned everywhere. I can't remember a single instance being reported when any other high-profile developer has decided to go on holiday because no one cares when they do it. How many other video game directors with the same sort of renown as Chris Roberts (as in, at the moment) do you know of in the first place?

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Big Bang has finally become what he set out to destroy. That's what happens when you spend too much time in Derek's Discord server. Hard evidence or go away. Stalking Chris and Sandi's social media and coming up with wildly pessimistic narratives doesn't count. That's just as bad as the deepest pools of autism over on the RSI forums.

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[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853664] And yes, I'm admitting to making an account with a name that means nothing except to you all, just to read the thread. It has 0 posts, I think I'm in the clear, don't think spreading FUD is against the rules.[/QUOTE] against the rules or not it does make you look like a huge dick, especially considering your post history in this thread, like wow dude, thanks for being the white-knight savior of the internet by spreading some FUD in a video game thread about space ships, how would we unravel the [I]grand conspiracy[/I] that is Star Citizen without you posting pictures of its director boarding a plane to go on vacation :rolleyes: like I agree that the fanboys of this game are really really bad about criticism of CIG (and full disclosure I did back this game for 80 bucks), but you're just as bad in the opposite direction.

You're acting like an anti-fanboy version of me at my most verbose. Think about that.

Oh my, a couple of photos of a man going on vacation, clearly proof of misuse of fundings. And why should they stop receiving funding? That seems like a dumb move to me. The people working at CIG need to make enough to live off while developing this game. If people want to donate more cash to them, then that's their choice. They don't force people to buy ships. They tell you over and over LTI is essentially worthless and you can earn all ships in game with normal gameplay. Again, please provide your 'good' sources.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853708]Long successful career doing what dude, lol? Do you think he got filthy rich off Wing Commander? The last game on the franchise was released 20 years ago, the movie flopped, every single other movie he was listed on as a producer flopped, and he was a used car salesman up until the Kickstarter. Where did these extensive riches come from? How many other video game directors that you know of are having exotic vacations every 3-4 months?[/QUOTE] you have to read more carefully before you post; my point was that he isn't 'filthy rich', he's about as well-off as you'd expect just fyi, movie losses aren't taken out of the producers pockets. so yeah, a string of successful games followed by number of producer credits in big films consistently over the years 'til present. if he actually managed to own and run a dealership at the same time I commend him clearly a washed up old game dev trying to get some quick cash. I'm sure the list of your own achievements in the last 10 years looks far more impressive

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[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853783]Maybe he's scrutinized because, unlike any other AAA game director, his funds come nearly entirely from crowdfunding? As in, they're administrated by thousands on people instead of the board of directors of, say, EA? His expenses are of the public interest because the public funded him in the first place. Like, come on, this isn't a hard thing to follow, it's not like the game ever fails to mention that Chris Roberts is the "visionary" behind it. And, lol, of the same renown as Chris Roberts? Chris Roberts doesn't even come close to top 10 in terms of "renown". Just from the UK I can name Sam and Dan Houser, Peter Molineux, David Braben. There's a bunch of guys that have released something like 10 times the amount of titles that Chris has, that have made billions of dollars, but that deliberately don't make themselves known, people like Glen Schofield, Bruce Straley, Kellee Santiago, mostly because the industry as a whole has eschewed that 90's perception that games are like films in the sense that the director is the one responsible for the entire thing.[/QUOTE] Yes, i know the game is crowdfunded and that's why people pay attention, and that's my point. You're saying "how many others do this, it must be bad!" when it's not a situation that applies to any other developers. You can't say "no one else goes on this many vacations, it's funding misuse!" when going on holiday is not something anyone notices or cares about at all with those other people. Others might go on more than Chris but you just wouldn't no know about it because[I] no one cares[/I]. By "renown" i meant it as in currently, at the moment (which is what i actually said), not just throughout their entire career. Chris Roberts is someone who people are paying a lot of moment to right now, unlike developers like Braben and Molineux. In terms of how much he gets mentioned, noticed or talked about recently, he's more high-profile at the moment than those others you mentioned, that's what i was getting at.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853842]Fucking lol, see what I mean? There's no room for doubt here folk, everything Chris has done is perfect and never wrong.[/QUOTE] I was making fun of the rumor that he washed out of hollywood and started a dealership since he's been in the industry until right when he started SC. it's a really juvenile argument that owning a business would be a black mark against someone's name please try to stick to the topic at hand instead of changing tack every 2nd post. save the rhetoric for SH

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853842]All I'm telling you to do is to ask CIG for accountability dude. Ask for Chris' salary, you're paying for it after all. [/QUOTE] I threw 80 bucks at this game like 2 years ago dude, I couldnt give less of a shit about holding anyones feet to the fire. the vast majority of pledgers have thrown like 40 bucks at this game, which is well within the margin of "I can throw this away on something irresponsible without really giving a shit if I don't get my moneys worth". It wouldnt even be worth most people's time to bitch about it. if I had invested like 2k into this game like some of the crazy backers have, I could see demanding accountability, but good luck getting the people to rise up a revolt with the rallying cry of "WHAT DID YOU DO WITH THE 3 HOURS OF MY SALARY THAT I GAVE YOU 2 YEARS AGO, CHRIS?????" because 99% of people dont care

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[quote]My sources are good though, they've proven themselves, and you should look forward to Gamescom![/quote] [QUOTE=Big Bang;50853916] Just, look forward to Gamescom people, it'll be a fun weekend. [/QUOTE] You've said this twice now and are implying something negative will happen. If your sources are really as trustable and 'proven' as you've said, you should really elaborate on that - unless you're not confident in them and are just saying some extremely vague statement so you don't look as bad when they're shown to be wrong. That way if something only just slightly bad happens you can still say "Told you so!". I expect you'll just refuse and come up with some absurd justification not to give us any details about what you're claiming, though. Explain what you thinks going to happen if you're so sure. Otherwise it's just more baseless attempts to try to cause doubt.

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853916]Nah I'm good dude, I'm pretty sure if I keep this up I'll be banned, thus why I originally told people to PM me instead, and it doesn't seem like this is going anywhere productive as it's turned into attacking me instead. Just, look forward to Gamescom people, it'll be a fun weekend. Yo, umm...There are many of those "crazy backers" right here right now. Those are the ones I'm speaking to.[/QUOTE] another argument with big bang fizzles out unsatisfyingly :( I'll patiently await the next instalment I hope 'crazy backers' includes me btw

[QUOTE=Big Bang;50853240]They didn't even confirm and actively denied that Sandi and Chris are married, which I consider to be a [I]big[/I] fucking deal, up until somebody dug the info up.[/QUOTE] [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kp_eYvXhx5c&t=34s"]lmao[/URL] It was also confirmed (via a slip) on the first 24-hour livestream. A Redditor explained things the best: [QUOTE]My employer is a husband/wife team. However, they use different last names in business, and never speak of their marriage. What Chris/Sandi did seems pretty normal for a married couple in the business world. They want each other to stand on their own merits, and especially in Sandi's case, it's was likely critical for her to get mutual respect and not be seen as 'chris's wife who's along for the ride'. Which is pretty much the explanation my employers gave for not presenting themselves as a married couple. Even if you ask, they try and change the subject.[/QUOTE] Perfectly logical, mature reason, and a common one in business. But keep on repeating Derek's talking points while claiming we're chasing a bogeyman instead of the real issues, you'll convince us someday! [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/3hj6Icj.png[/IMG]