Star Citizen Megathread - Star Marine isn't doomed after all!

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946446]I just want a Star Citizen equivalent to my Clipper. Sleek and luxurious but capable of both cargo and gunboat duties.[/QUOTE]

I was grinding to the clipper before I ragequit due to the grind. Such a beautiful vessel.

And there's no real good reason to defend the flight model in SC atm. Its pretty fucking retarded to think "hey we'll go back and fix it later", when that sort of mindset has already caused issues with having to redo ships and upgrade them.

Rolling with a patched together system to "save" time is a tremendous fallacy, and ultimately results in more dev time since you have to replace it down the road, after you've already built around your temp system. Sunk cost fallacy, I believe? Elite Dangerous has [I]much[/I] better ship handling and the maneuverability window makes sense, as its the throttle level at which your ancillary thrusters can actually keep up with the inertia of the ship. Inertia is directly proportional to velocity, so the faster a ship goes the harder it gets to shift its trajectory. At some point, you just can't do it as well as you could.

They're clearly putting effort into that atmospheric flight system, and trying to make that realistic, but when so many ships are works of art and not engineering it seems sort of redundant. It wouldn't be hard to literally hire an aerospace engineering contractor to spend 20-30m per ship model giving slight input to make it handle slightly less like ass. [sp]CIG hire me pls[/sp]

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50945909]This is kinda how I feel

E:D's flight model isn't realistic but neither is SC's and out of the two E:D's is more fun and varied between ships from what I've seen so far. Small ships in E:D feel nimble compared to big ships which feel lumbering and powerful, but in the hands of a skilled pilot either can prove a threat to the other. I can't really tell the difference between the Freelancer and the F7C's handling since I can flip both of them around faster than I can process what's going on and there are ships that can literally fly circles around those even as they're spinning unreasonably fast.

It's important to remember of course that ships in Elite are much bigger than Star Citizen's ships on average, but I think I would still prefer a more Star Warsy flight model for SC.

I also feel like boarding combat in SC is going to be nearly nonexistent. I have slapped a few would-be boarders to death with my hull. It's impossible to get on a crewed ship that doesn't want you getting on it.[/QUOTE]

Eh, we'll have to disagree on the flight model. I think one of my favourite things about SC is the flight model, precisely because of the freedom you have with it. Some players won't really do much with it beyond flying in a straight line while aiming at NPC targets, but once you get into the PVP aspects of the game and learn how to maneuver evasively, you start to get a real appreciation for the model's complexity and versatility - something that Elite, while fun and more accessible for the casual gamer, simply can't deliver. This coming from someone who has played close to a thousand hours of Elite. In Elite, you're supposed to tank hits and dish out more damage, managing your shields and your SCBs/heat levels. In Star Citizen, the trick is simply not to get hit. And if you're a good enough pilot, you can do that, unlike in Elite.

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=archangel125;50946607]Eh, we'll have to disagree on the flight model. I think one of my favourite things about SC is the flight model, precisely because of the freedom you have with it. Some players won't really do much with it beyond flying in a straight line while aiming at targets, but once you get into the PVP aspects of the game and learn how to maneuver evasively, you start to get a real appreciation for the model's complexity and versatility - something that Elite, while fun and more accessible for the casual gamer, simply can't deliver.[/QUOTE]

But it can? You can still disable flight assist and do crazy stuff. Star Citizen constantly leaves me feeling like I'm forcing the ship to do what I want, and coercing it as best as I can. It feels (as someone stated earlier) like I'm not actually flying the ship, if that makes sense.

And those crazy maneuvers don't feel good, they feel silly and unrealistic. There's no way some of the starships in this game could stand up to those sort of maneuvers.

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=paindoc;50946631]But it can? You can still disable flight assist and do crazy stuff. Star Citizen constantly leaves me feeling like I'm forcing the ship to do what I want, and coercing it as best as I can. It feels (as someone stated earlier) like I'm not actually flying the ship, if that makes sense.

And those crazy maneuvers don't feel good, they feel silly and unrealistic. There's no way some of the starships in this game could stand up to those sort of maneuvers.[/QUOTE]

But even with flight assist off, your ability to turn (Pivot, not change your vector) is limited by how fast you're going, it feels awful. Elite doesn't even have something as basic as velocity vector symbology on their HUD. SC's flight model, on the other hand, really does give you the full six degrees of freedom that's a big selling point for space sims (In decoupled mode, anyway). And as for the ships handling hull stresses, I agree that some of the larger ships (Actually the Connie's the only one I can think of) are a bit too agile. But the small, single-seater fighters? Why not, after all? There's no aerodynamic drag threatening to pull the thing apart, and the thrusters are all located on the ship's hull, not its wings and other protrusions.

[Grenadiac]

Other than the fact that I can routinely pull maneuvers that would turn me into pudding? I dunno. I expect this will improve over time.

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=archangel125;50946643]But even with flight assist off, your ability to turn (Pivot, not change your vector) is limited by how fast you're going, it feels awful. Elite doesn't even have something as basic as velocity vector symbology on their HUD. SC's flight model, on the other hand, really does give you the full six degrees of freedom that's a big selling point for space sims (In decoupled mode, anyway). And as for the ships handling hull stresses, I agree that some of the larger ships (Actually the Connie's the only one I can think of) are a bit too agile. But the small, single-seater fighters? Why not, after all? There's no aerodynamic drag threatening to pull the thing apart, and the thrusters are all located on the ship's hull, not its wings and other protrusions.[/QUOTE]

Because you still get stresses placed on the bodies due to centripetal acceleration, which threaten to literally tear the vessel apart. F=M*A right? The acceleration is m*v^2 / r, where r is the distance from the center of acceleration.

Now my brain is all fuzzy this morning, but there is still the tangential component to consider too, which exerts a force of its own. I don't have the best memory of the equations defining the dynamics of a rigid body undergoing rotational and translational motion in 3D, but the tldr of it is probably going to be that the craft experiences some intense stresses and should at the very least experience no small amount of strain transformations in the frame, if not outright failures. engine position being on spars just means those are more likely to go for a journey.

Not to mention the forces being placed on the pilot.

Limited maneuverability based on speed makes sense. Its how it would work anyways. If the maneuvering thrusters in this game hadn't already been made stupid OP. Realism is not SC's strong suit when it comes to flight mechanics. Its "fun" realism, the sort that likes to say its realistic but only seems so to those who don't think about wtf is going on.

grumble grumble im going back to rogue "DCS spaceship" system grumble

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=paindoc;50946719]Because you still get stresses placed on the bodies due to centripetal acceleration, which threaten to literally tear the vessel apart. F=M*A right? The acceleration is m*v^2 / r, where r is the distance from the center of acceleration.

Now my brain is all fuzzy this morning, but there is still the tangential component to consider too, which exerts a force of its own. I don't have the best memory of the equations defining the dynamics of a rigid body undergoing rotational and translational motion in 3D, but the tldr of it is probably going to be that the craft experiences some intense stresses and should at the very least experience no small amount of strain transformations in the frame, if not outright failures. engine position being on spars just means those are more likely to go for a journey.[/QUOTE]

You're the aerodynamic engineer, I'll defer to your wisdom. Which SC ships in particular are you thinking of that would ill-withstand hull stresses, though? The ones I fly tend to have slower acceleration than most, so I'd think they'd be relatively safe from what you're describing.

Oh, and is Rogue System a good game? I've been considering it.

[Ott]

Is there a top speed in SC? Can you just keep accelerating faster and faster (as you're in space)?

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Ott;50946738]Is there a top speed in SC? Can you just keep accelerating faster and faster (as you're in space)?[/QUOTE]

Nah, there's a top speed limited by your flight mode. If you reach said top speed and are flying in a straight line (So no maneuvering is necessary to keep you there) your engines stop firing and you coast.

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=archangel125;50946729]You're the aerodynamic engineer, I'll defer to your wisdom. Which SC ships in particular are you thinking of that would ill-withstand hull stresses, though? The ones I fly tend to have slower acceleration than most, so I'd think they'd relatively safe from what you're describing.

Oh, and is Rogue System a good game? I've been considering it.[/QUOTE]

Well, my university fucked me for the Nth time and misplaced some paperwork I needed to fix my GPA to get into my aero/astro program. so I didn't get in. Now, I'm an applied physicist. So my knowledge is 50/50 theoretical/practical :v:

Any of the ships that have exceptionally thin or long frames. The connie would be one I'd worry about. I don't want SC to be uber uber realistic, but it can still tone it down a bit and be fun. It'd anchor the flight mechanics a bit, and probably make ships more satisfying to fly. A balance between rocket scooters on amphetamines and E:D would be cool, since E:D really does [I]nail[/I] the differences in handling based on ship size imo. Think how silly the Javelin or Idris could be under current flight mechanics. They should be lumbering beasts, but still capable in the right hands. And not like flying a space bus.

Rogue System is quite nice, but very feature sparse. The original spacecraft that was there for the first alpha is gone, and has been replaced by a new one. the creator is switching over a lot of the GUI code, and the new craft was written purely in that. The old one is being converted. The dev is communicative, realistic, and friendly so at the very least I feel good supporting his effort. The sound design is top notch, starting the engines just sounds so [I]good[/I]. If you have the money to spare, I'd consider it. My favorite part of the DCS games was just doing cold starts, and that's why I bought fancy planes for FSX (PMDG 737NGX aw yiss), so Rogue System scratches my itch. If you like proper missions and more dogfight-y stuff, it may not be for you yet.
[URL="http://shallow.space/"]
Shallow Space[/URL] also just pushed their new overhaul update. Its buggy as fuck, but the devs have been [I]really[/I] responsive to bug reports and have been patching daily since the first overhaul update release last week afaik. Its a beautiful game too, a fun space-based RTS that focuses on the ships and universe more than the usual 4X paradigms.

[video=youtube;lWDw8zCI7EQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWDw8zCI7EQ[/video]

This is one of the best times in recent memory to be a space games junkie :D

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=paindoc;50946761]Well, my university fucked me for the Nth time and misplaced some paperwork I needed to fix my GPA to get into my aero/astro program. so I didn't get in. Now, I'm an applied physicist. So my knowledge is 50/50 theoretical/practical :v:

Any of the ships that have exceptionally thin or long frames. The connie would be one I'd worry about. I don't want SC to be uber uber realistic, but it can still tone it down a bit and be fun. It'd anchor the flight mechanics a bit, and probably make ships more satisfying to fly. A balance between rocket scooters on amphetamines and E:D would be cool, since E:D really does [I]nail[/I] the differences in handling based on ship size imo. Think how silly the Javelin or Idris could be under current flight mechanics. They should be lumbering beasts, but still capable in the right hands. And not like flying a space bus.

Rogue System is quite nice, but very feature sparse. The original spacecraft that was there for the first alpha is gone, and has been replaced by a new one. the creator is switching over a lot of the GUI code, and the new craft was written purely in that. The old one is being converted. The dev is communicative, realistic, and friendly so at the very least I feel good supporting his effort. The sound design is top notch, starting the engines just sounds so [I]good[/I]. If you have the money to spare, I'd consider it. My favorite part of the DCS games was just doing cold starts, and that's why I bought fancy planes for FSX (PMDG 737NGX aw yiss), so Rogue System scratches my itch. If you like proper missions and more dogfight-y stuff, it may not be for you yet.
[URL="http://shallow.space/"]
Shallow Space[/URL] also just pushed their new overhaul update. Its buggy as fuck, but the devs have been [I]really[/I] responsive to bug reports and have been patching daily since the first overhaul update release last week afaik. Its a beautiful game too, a fun space-based RTS that focuses on the ships and universe more than the usual 4X paradigms.

[video=youtube;lWDw8zCI7EQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWDw8zCI7EQ[/video]

This is one of the best times in recent memory to be a space games junkie :D[/QUOTE]

Considering you're paying your university ungodly sums of money to not fuck up, their clerical errors are inexcusable. Sorry to hear it, but don't stop trying.

As for E:D's flight model, my biggest issue with it is that even with FA:Off the handling just feels wrong. Take, for example, the way your ship handles when poised over a landing pad and not moving in any direction. There's no reason your rate of pitch or yaw should be glacial when it's so much faster if you're moving at approximately half your throttle. At least Star Citizen gives you the freedom to pivot freely - Though if there's one change I'd like to see them make, it's giving the maneuvering thrusters a bit less power to change your vector (but enough to pivot you) and giving the main engine more authority. Since the early days they've made great strides in that direction, but I think they could do better. On some ships it's great, like the Vanguard Warden. Its maneuvering and retrograde thrusters are really weak, so if you want to decelerate or change directions in a hurry you've got to flip around and fire your 'afterburner' boost. There's a thing that Elite doesn't do so well.

Also, I do like that in Star Citizen you can pass out if you pull too many Gs, either through black or redout. Though I've read that the g-force tolerances of Star Citizen spacemen, for the purposes of gameplay, are approximately two to four times what normal humans can endure.

[Grenadiac]

I think Elite does it just fine, it's just not represented in every ship. The Clipper for example drifts like a motherfucker unless you halve the throttle or use F/A off+afterburner to change directions. I really like flight in Elite overall.

You get a good idea of how ridiculous the thrusters in SC are if you strafe in any direction in combat mode near a stationary object like a space station. I have seen inexperienced pilots literally crash and explode from tapping the wrong strafe thruster around Olisar. They are so sensitive and so powerful I think the sudden acceleration could actually be potentially lethal.

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946849]I think Elite does it just fine, it's just not represented in every ship. The Clipper for example drifts like a motherfucker unless you halve the throttle or use F/A off+afterburner to change directions. I really like flight in Elite overall.

You get a good idea of how ridiculous the thrusters in SC are if you strafe in any direction in combat mode near a stationary object like a space station. I have seen inexperienced pilots literally crash and explode from tapping the wrong strafe thruster around Olisar.[/QUOTE]

Depends a lot on what you're flying. If you've got some REC to spare, try the Super Hornet or Vanguard, I think you'll like them a lot. If you're flying something like the Mustang, the M50, or the Gladius, though... yeah, they're a bit too agile.

I'm not saying that Elite's not fun, it definitely is. I'm saying that between Elite and Star Citizen, the one that better represents the possibilities of movement in a vacuum is Star Citizen, hands down, even if some of its ships are too agile.

[Grenadiac]

I've got a Cutlass Black. It has an excuse for having extremely aggressive attitude controls, but there are other ships that can maneuver better than it despite not being anywhere near its vector capability.

Like as big as the Cutlass' engines are compared to its body, aiming one up and the other down should turn you into a fucking tornado. And it does - but some ships are even faster at this somehow.

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946865]I've got a Cutlass Black. It has an excuse for having extremely aggressive attitude controls, but there are other ships that can maneuver better than it despite not being anywhere near its vector capability.[/QUOTE]

I haven't flown the Cutlass since 1.2. Is it fun to fly?

[paindoc]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946849]I think Elite does it just fine, it's just not represented in every ship. The Clipper for example drifts like a motherfucker unless you halve the throttle or use F/A off+afterburner to change directions. I really like flight in Elite overall.

You get a good idea of how ridiculous the thrusters in SC are if you strafe in any direction in combat mode near a stationary object like a space station. I have seen inexperienced pilots literally crash and explode from tapping the wrong strafe thruster around Olisar. They are so sensitive and so powerful I think the sudden acceleration could actually be potentially lethal.[/QUOTE]

This is the biggest giveaway for me. It makes it clear that some things are a bit off.

That being said, I am thoroughly impressed from an engineering standpoint that you can see all the thrusters fire and vector from an external view. That's super neat, and really quite impressive. Its a lot of fun to watch.

There's a lot of solid tech and engineering thought in Star Citizen, but there are some things that leave me more like :what:

[Grenadiac]

[QUOTE=archangel125;50946873]I haven't flown the Cutlass since 1.2. Is it fun to fly?[/QUOTE]

I love my Cutlass. I can't compare it to much since it's one of only a few ships that I've flown extensively but [I]for the most part[/I] it seems to handle fairly naturally to me. I have defeated a few players in superior ships. I am looking forward to the upcoming rework, which will give it a much more impressive cargo space with an elevator-deck like the Connie.

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946887]I love my Cutlass. I can't compare it to much since it's one of only a few ships that I've flown extensively but [I]for the most part[/I] it seems to handle fairly naturally to me. I have defeated a few players in superior ships. I am looking forward to the upcoming rework, which will give it a much more impressive cargo space with an elevator-deck like the Connie.[/QUOTE]

I had a Cutlass blue but melted it. Ah, well. I'll buy another in the 'Verse one day.

What I'm most looking forward to is the netcode rework.

[jonoPorter]

[QUOTE=paindoc;50946761]Well, my university fucked me for the Nth time and misplaced some paperwork I needed to fix my GPA to get into my aero/astro program. so I didn't get in. Now, I'm an applied physicist. So my knowledge is 50/50 theoretical/practical :v:
[/QUOTE]

Keep trying my man

[Dwarden]

I backed Shallow Space (still waiting for chance to name my ships/NPC w/e I got as pledge)

I have high hopes for it, as expansion of Nexus: The Jupiter Incident alike games next to Homeworld serie

[Mr. Khorn]

I fly the cutlass from time to time, and when ever I use the boost, it seems to really fuck it up.

[Grenadiac]

[QUOTE=Sgt. Khorn;50946932]I fly the cutlass from time to time, and when ever I use the boost, it seems to really fuck it up.[/QUOTE]

The Cutlass is hilarious with boost because it can red-out you from a stop with straight line acceleration only. The engines sometimes don't know what to do in afterburner though.

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;50946938]The Cutlass is hilarious with boost because it can red-out you from a stop with straight line acceleration only. The engines sometimes don't know what to do in afterburner though.[/QUOTE]

Reminder of why I love the Cutlass:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beTvngEsfVI[/media]

[Mattk50]

[QUOTE=paindoc;50946631]But it can? You can still disable flight assist and do crazy stuff. Star Citizen constantly leaves me feeling like I'm forcing the ship to do what I want, and coercing it as best as I can. It feels (as someone stated earlier) like I'm not actually flying the ship, if that makes sense.

And those crazy maneuvers don't feel good, they feel silly and unrealistic. There's no way some of the starships in this game could stand up to those sort of maneuvers.[/QUOTE]

if they feel silly to you over ED i'm inclined to say you have the wrong idea about space flight... it makes sense that the smallest human scale fighters push the limits, why would you want it any other way. the bigger ships are there for the slow, elegant maneuvers, i realize the current ships we have ingame are mostly lighter fighters but still if you fly a cutlass you certainly shouldnt be feeling silly levels of accel. ED's flight assist off isnt even properly implemented for real gameplay with it's lack of rotational assist and speed limits that depend on which direction you are floating with your engines turned off. I cant take any flight model seriously that treats it's assist off like the gimmick that elite does, rather than something actually meant to be used as a primary mode for people who prefer it.

[Hyzo]

What did they do to AC? I used to have a blast playing Vanduul swarm and now I load it up the vanduul just sit their with their thumbs up their butts, is this just a bug or did they purposely disable the AI in vanduul swarm?

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Hyzo;50946984]What did they do to AC? I used to have a blast playing Vanduul swarm and now I load it up the vanduul just sit their with their thumbs up their butts, is this just a bug or did they purposely disable the AI in vanduul swarm?[/QUOTE]

Sounds like a bug to me. I haven't played in a couple of versions.

[Cygnus]

[t]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/zwckh2uxbbfuhr/slideshow_wide/Aegis_Terrapin_V01__20_.jpg[/t]

So apparently the Terrapin used to look pretty much like a small scale Cobra knock off :v:

[Archangel125]

[QUOTE=Sweeney;50947066][t]https://robertsspaceindustries.com/media/zwckh2uxbbfuhr/slideshow_wide/Aegis_Terrapin_V01__20_.jpg[/t]

So apparently the Terrapin used to look pretty much like a small scale Cobra knock off :v:[/QUOTE]

I was thinking more of the Viper.

[t]http://www.elitegalaxy.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Screenshot_0013b.jpg[/t]

[ImCrimson]

[QUOTE=Hyzo;50946984]What did they do to AC? I used to have a blast playing Vanduul swarm and now I load it up the vanduul just sit their with their thumbs up their butts, is this just a bug or did they purposely disable the AI in vanduul swarm?[/QUOTE]

Worked fine for me just hours ago, only issue being how toothless the Vanduul seemed to become after I recently figured out decoupled flight.

[dai]

[QUOTE=archangel125;50946945]Reminder of why I love the Cutlass:

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beTvngEsfVI[/media][/QUOTE]

cutlass looks so good on dying star, I'm reminded of that time a few of us were dinking around and someone missiled the ship as I was having fun with the ship's gravity being busted

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdkWmkuS0FY[/media]

happy 1 year anniversary to this apparently, fighting with that gladius made me realize I'd probably prefer sticks and fixed weapons :v: