D&D V6 - Edition jokes don't really make sense anymore - Games

dnd good system

dude

[QUOTE=elowin;50963324]Yeah that's always been an issue for me as well. Other than buffs, spellcasters are extremely random because everything is dependant on all or nothing saving throws. Either you kill them instantly or do nothing at all, either you put a huge debuff on them or do nothing at all, either you do a decent chunk of damage or only half of that (or nothing if they have improved evasion) Also hate how low damage wizards are. Even if they throw out their highest spell slots specifically on doing damage to a single target, chances are they won't be doing more than the fighter can do reliably every turn. I've always been miffed at how evocation compares to other kinds of magic. And how utterly unsatisfying it is to beat the big bad evil guy by him randomly failing his saving throw on a finger of death.[/QUOTE] BBEG should have Death Ward on him

[QUOTE=NotAName;50964425]BBEG should have Death Ward on him[/QUOTE] Assuming 3e/PF. There's a number of reasons why they might not have Death Ward. Not the least of those reasons being that Death Ward has a low duration and cannot be made permanent. In the case of 5e, it has a longer duration but only works once. Besides that there's a bunch of other spells that essentially put you a single saving throw away from defeat which are not affected by Death Ward. Including even a few killing spells, Phantasmal Killer and Weird, which are not actually death effects despite killing instantly. Although they do have two saving throws.

how to fix this: don't let your bbeg be affected by instant kill spells

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;50964922]how to fix this: don't let your bbeg be affected by instant kill spells[/QUOTE] There's still tons of other ways to completely disable someone besides that, though. Hideous Laughter, Irresistible Dance, Baleful Polymorph, Power Word Stun, Flesh to Stone, Imprisonment, the list goes on. Any defenses against these, and death effects too for that matter, can be countered or brute-forced in some fashion or another. Especially in 5e where Death Ward only works once. If you just say "no this doesn't work period" then you might as well be saying "no don't play a wizard" because as much as I don't like it, this is how wizards are played in D&D. Spells focused solely on dealing damage are almost exclusively AoEs meant to blow away lesser opponents. Against very powerful individual characters/monsters, they simply aren't that impressive. For single targets, wizards are focused almost solely on instant death or incapacitating effects.

That's why I usually have the BBEG of campaigns I run in D&D be ideas or other things you can't just kill with one spell. Yes, the current bad guy is the leader of a cult, but that cult has independent branches all over the land that aren't affected in the slightest by his death.

[QUOTE=Alsojames;50965189]That's why I usually have the BBEG of campaigns I run in D&D be ideas or other things you can't just kill with one spell. Yes, the current bad guy is the leader of a cult, but that cult has independent branches all over the land that aren't affected in the slightest by his death.[/QUOTE] I don't know if I'd call that a BBEG. Also probably doesn't fit immensely well with D&D's dungeon crawling focused structure, but that's only a problem if you really want balance.

Allow me to rephrase then. I don't usually do BBEGs, I do BBEIs (Big Bad Evil Ideas).

Giving DoT's to elemental magic was one of the better things I did for low level spellcasters. While it makes higher level spells only slightly better, the main advantage is giving cantrips some lasting power such that they can be used as a standard attack and not be worthless. No more of that stupid crossbow shit.

cantrips were a mistake

[QUOTE=elowin;50965469]cantrips were a mistake[/QUOTE] You can't just splat out cantrips were a mistake without giving some context into why they are a bad thing like you say. Or maybe you already did, I just skimmed that long fight about magic users or something. What makes cantrips bad and whats the alternative to them?

[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;50965480]You can't just splat out cantrips were a mistake without giving some context into why they are a bad thing like you say. Or maybe you already did, I just skimmed that long fight about magic users or something. What makes cantrips bad and whats the alternative to them?[/QUOTE] I don't have a problem with cantrips as they were initially envisioned, as minor magical tricks that didn't quite deserve to be 1st level spells. I hate the idea the idea that they planted into people's minds and what they subsequently became. A magical "basic attack" that a spellcaster can always fall back to. [editline]29th August 2016[/editline] It corrupts what I personally think is the role of the spellcaster, and what the role of the spellcasting classes has been trying to be until 4th and 5th edition. Great bursts of power, no endurance. Meanwhile fighters are the opposite, steady, consistent but relatively low power, and great endurance. As I see it, giving all the pure arcane spellcasting classes a basic, consistent attack that they can throw out as often as they like blurs the line between magic and the mundane.

[QUOTE=elowin;50965535]I don't have a problem with cantrips as they were initially envisioned, as minor magical tricks that didn't quite deserve to be 1st level spells. I hate the idea the idea that they planted into people's minds and what they subsequently became. A magical "basic attack" that a spellcaster can always fall back.[/QUOTE] well, whats the problem with a basic magic attack? I think you said something earlier about it cheapening magic and whatnot, but how does it cheapen out the magicks? It's obvious that once a wizard runs out of spell slots he's pretty worthless in comparison to when he has even one spell slot. Cantrips are, of course, the attempt to prevent total uselessness of a wizard by giving him some magical might when he either doesn't have to use a spell or doesn't want to. What do you give to him then? A crossbow? The light crossbow's 1d8 damage might be fine earlier in the game, but sooner or later it drops off. Do you have any thoughts on what could be a good alternative to cantrips or just ditch them and keep the light crossbow? [editline]29th August 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=elowin;50965535] It corrupts what I personally think is the role of the spellcaster, and what the role of the spellcasting classes has been trying to be until 4th and 5th edition. Great bursts of power, no endurance. Meanwhile fighters are the opposite, steady, consistent but relatively low power, and great endurance. As I see it, giving all the pure arcane spellcasting classes a basic, consistent attack that they can throw out as often as they like blurs the line between magic and the mundane.[/QUOTE] Ah, so it makes magic more mundane and not some crazy shit to be dropped, i get it. But there is that question of what does a spellcaster do when those great bursts of power aren't needed? Do you think magic users are better when they're pretty much just to be dragged around, plinking at things with their crossbow until something that needs killing comes along and does the killing? Because we also do have to think about the fun people are having while playing a magic user, this is a game after all. And what fun is it to just stand in the back at later levels doing all but piddily squat with your crossbow in comparison to your non-magic user friends over there until something is needed to be done?

[QUOTE=elowin;50965535]I don't have a problem with cantrips as they were initially envisioned, as minor magical tricks that didn't quite deserve to be 1st level spells. I hate the idea the idea that they planted into people's minds and what they subsequently became. A magical "basic attack" that a spellcaster can always fall back to. [editline]29th August 2016[/editline] It corrupts what I personally think is the role of the spellcaster, and what the role of the spellcasting classes has been trying to be until 4th and 5th edition. Great bursts of power, no endurance. Meanwhile fighters are the opposite, steady, consistent but relatively low power, and great endurance. As I see it, giving all the pure arcane spellcasting classes a basic, consistent attack that they can throw out as often as they like blurs the line between magic and the mundane.[/QUOTE] Cantrips are almost universally garbage though unless you build to use them (IE firebolt using dragon sorcerer or blaster warlock). The whole scaling damage thing SEEMS nice, but no self respecting wizard would pop one in combat unless they were built for it or literally out of juice. Keep in mind that again, a wizard's to-hit is never going to beat a good fighter, and that 1d10 or 2d10 or whatever doesn't have nice shit like great weapon master or a strength mod to fall back on. If you're just focusing on cantrips, congratulations you've built a boring caster (or are a warlock, at which point its mandatory). It really isn't hard to take any class and give them some melee potential anyways, and saying that it makes magic 'mundane' is kinda weird considering how high-magic the faerun setting is. edit: Finally managed to retire a character, and he's well on his way to becoming the next BBEG, should be fun! [t]http://i.imgur.com/qsL4UhN.png[/t]

[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;50965586]well, whats the problem with a basic magic attack? I think you said something earlier about it cheapening magic and whatnot, but how does it cheapen out the magicks? It's obvious that once a wizard runs out of spell slots he's pretty worthless in comparison to when he has even one spell slot. Cantrips are, of course, the attempt to prevent total uselessness of a wizard by giving him some magical might when he either doesn't have to use a spell or doesn't want to. What do you give to him then? A crossbow? The light crossbow's 1d8 damage might be fine earlier in the game, but sooner or later it drops off. Do you have any thoughts on what could be a good alternative to cantrips or just ditch them and keep the light crossbow? [editline]29th August 2016[/editline] Ah, so it makes magic more mundane and not some crazy shit to be dropped, i get it. But there is that question of what does a spellcaster do when those great bursts of power aren't needed? Do you think magic users are better when they're pretty much just to be dragged around, plinking at things with their crossbow until something that needs killing comes along and does the killing? Because we also do have to think about the fun people are having while playing a magic user, this is a game after all. And what fun is it to just stand in the back at later levels doing all but piddily squat with your crossbow in comparison to your non-magic user friends over there until something is needed to be done?[/QUOTE] Honestly Elowin's opinion on magic just seems to me like it's "whatever this system uses is bad because reasons" on everything except Ars Magica(which he also has issues with, I think, but he's never told me what they are). D&D, he doesn't like that cantrips can be used as a magical basic attack. Exalted? He's pissed that sorcerers don't get any sort of magical basic attack. Every time we've tried to play it save for the most recent attempt(in which he made a ronin samurai-type dude), he's made a character focused on sorcery with no other combat ability, and then bitched about how the system expects him to take some points in [I]something[/I] combat-related if he wants to actually be a combat caster at all. (For reference, Exalted's sorcery system has combat spells, and they're all relatively big impressive shit, but they usually take more than 1 turn to use, and a Sorcerer channeling a spell is a bigger target than a Shadowrun Mage, so combat sorcerer's are expected to [I]at least[/I] take some points in Dodge or Resistance, so they can survive attacks, if not actually taking points in Melee or Brawl(or Archery/Thrown), so they can also do damage without having to spend time on casting a spell). TL;DR Elowin is basically just a contrarian piece of shit when it comes to magic systems.

[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;50965586]well, whats the problem with a basic magic attack? I think you said something earlier about it cheapening magic and whatnot, but how does it cheapen out the magicks? It's obvious that once a wizard runs out of spell slots he's pretty worthless in comparison to when he has even one spell slot. Cantrips are, of course, the attempt to prevent total uselessness of a wizard by giving him some magical might when he either doesn't have to use a spell or doesn't want to. What do you give to him then? A crossbow? The light crossbow's 1d8 damage might be fine earlier in the game, but sooner or later it drops off. Do you have any thoughts on what could be a good alternative to cantrips or just ditch them and keep the light crossbow? [editline]29th August 2016[/editline] Ah, so it makes magic more mundane and not some crazy shit to be dropped, i get it. But there is that question of what does a spellcaster do when those great bursts of power aren't needed? Do you think magic users are better when they're pretty much just to be dragged around, plinking at things with their crossbow until something that needs killing comes along and does the killing? Because we also do have to think about the fun people are having while playing a magic user, this is a game after all. And what fun is it to just stand in the back at later levels doing all but piddily squat with your crossbow in comparison to your non-magic user friends over there until something is needed to be done?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;50965586]well, whats the problem with a basic magic attack? I think you said something earlier about it cheapening magic and whatnot, but how does it cheapen out the magicks? It's obvious that once a wizard runs out of spell slots he's pretty worthless in comparison to when he has even one spell slot. Cantrips are, of course, the attempt to prevent total uselessness of a wizard by giving him some magical might when he either doesn't have to use a spell or doesn't want to. What do you give to him then? A crossbow? The light crossbow's 1d8 damage might be fine earlier in the game, but sooner or later it drops off. Do you have any thoughts on what could be a good alternative to cantrips or just ditch them and keep the light crossbow?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;50965586]well, whats the problem with a basic magic attack? I think you said something earlier about it cheapening magic and whatnot, but how does it cheapen out the magicks? It's obvious that once a wizard runs out of spell slots he's pretty worthless in comparison to when he has even one spell slot. Cantrips are, of course, the attempt to prevent total uselessness of a wizard by giving him some magical might when he either doesn't have to use a spell or doesn't want to. What do you give to him then? A crossbow? The light crossbow's 1d8 damage might be fine earlier in the game, but sooner or later it drops off. Do you have any thoughts on what could be a good alternative to cantrips or just ditch them and keep the light crossbow?[/QUOTE] A crossbow is fine earlier in the game, although in general spellcasters have never been that fun to play for the first few levels in my opinion. Personally I don't think they look that fun in 5e either. They pick up around the time they get 3rd level spells, imo. Once you reach a respectable level, and have a handful of spell slots of varying levels to work with, it becomes a lot more interesting. You have lower level spells for lesser encounters, so unless you've wasted all your spell slots you should never be completely useless in a fight. But you still can't just fart them out every turn. You have to try to preserve your magic, only using the minimal amount of force needed for the situation, try to get as much out of every spell as you can. To me, a part of the appeal of playing a spellcaster comes from deciding [i]not[/i] to cast a spell this turn, from seeing that it isn't necessary for success or the potential gain isn't worth the cost. Deciding not to cast a spell is a meaningful choice, in my opinion. Now, I can definitely see the idea in making that seem less like a wasted turn, though. I think there's a lot of ways you can go about doing that. Last page I suggested giving wizards some mundane support abilities, or perhaps just making skills have some more useful applications in combat, like inspiring your teammates, pointing out enemy weaknesses actually giving your teammates a mechanical advantage against someone, or trying to demoralize the opponent perhaps by intimidating them with a minor show of magic just to show that you're a wizard and mean business (although that works better in a low magic setting where people fear magic) Another idea I've thought about is a little more complicated, but more magical. I was considering an ability to "charge up" or focus or something similar to that. Take a turn off to gather some energy into a pool, and then on later turns you can draw on that pool to empower your spells in certain ways. I just don't want the solution to be "give them infinite spells, let them throw firebolts every turn" For me personally, that ruins the magic of magic.

Elowin is number one reason to play Psion instead. Or feel the power. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-MDuXXiSI[/media]

[QUOTE=Rats808;50965665]Honestly Elowin's opinion on magic just seems to me like it's "whatever this system uses is bad because reasons" on everything except Ars Magica(which he also has issues with, I think, but he's never told me what they are). D&D, he doesn't like that cantrips can be used as a magical basic attack. Exalted? He's pissed that sorcerers don't get any sort of magical basic attack. Every time we've tried to play it save for the most recent attempt(in which he made a ronin samurai-type dude), he's made a character focused on sorcery with no other combat ability, and then bitched about how the system expects him to take some points in [I]something[/I] combat-related if he wants to actually be a combat caster at all. (For reference, Exalted's sorcery system has combat spells, and they're all relatively big impressive shit, but they usually take more than 1 turn to use, and a Sorcerer channeling a spell is a bigger target than a Shadowrun Mage, so combat sorcerer's are expected to [I]at least[/I] take some points in Dodge or Resistance, so they can survive attacks, if not actually taking points in Melee or Brawl(or Archery/Thrown), so they can also do damage without having to spend time on casting a spell). TL;DR Elowin is basically just a contrarian piece of shit when it comes to magic systems.[/QUOTE] That's a completely inaccurate representation of my opinion of Exalted and it's magic system, but thanks for misrepresenting my opinions to make me look like a contrarian. Why do I even play with you?

Chill out ladies, its just make believe magic in a game of make believe.

[QUOTE=gufu;50965802]Elowin is number one reason to play Psion instead. Or feel the power. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XF-MDuXXiSI[/media][/QUOTE] holy shit early dynasty warriors was way cheesier than I thought, i need to play this

[QUOTE=elowin;50965835]That's a completely inaccurate representation of my opinion of Exalted and it's magic system, but thanks for lying about my opinions to make me look like a contrarian.[/QUOTE] Okay, yeah, to be fair, I forgot what the actual complaints he had were; here's what his complaints are in his own words, from Skype. [quote=Elowin]in 2e the problem was primarily that perfect defences make it literally irrelevant, with a side dish of not being all that powerful in the first place despite costing 1000000 essence to use i didnt have a problem with it taking time to cast i had a problem with it having a low payoff for the time it took to cast Casting times are fine IF THE SPELLS ARE POWERFUL ENOUGH TO WARRANT IT magic in exalted 2e is weak and inefficient and also useless because of perfect defenses.[/quote] My main point, though, that he has problems with every magic system, stands. Every game I've ever played in that he was running, except for a Pathfinder game years ago, he's had a list of tweaks/changes that he made to the magic system before we started playing. But, again, to use his own words: [quote]im a system perfectionist when GMing But there's a difference between "yeah i think this needs a few tweaks", "I think this needs a bit of an overhaul or a balancing job", and "OH GOD THIS IS FUCKING HORRIBLE I COULD NEVER PLAY THIS" 5e and exalted both happen to fall in that last category, for mostly different reasons.[/quote] [quote]Why do I even play with you?[/quote] Because when we aren't busy throwing salt at each other, we actually have a decent amount of fun. :v: [sp]I'm half-expecting an angry message for using Skype quotes, but I'm doing it purely to give his side in the best way, instead of paraphasing shit; the only editing I did was to remove the timestamp and name at the start of each line.[/sp]

[QUOTE=Rats808;50965911]Okay, yeah, to be fair, I forgot what the actual complaints he had were; here's what his complaints are in his own words, from Skype. My main point, though, that he has problems with every magic system, stands. Every game I've ever played in that he was running, except for a Pathfinder game years ago, he's had a list of tweaks/changes that he made to the magic system before we started playing. But, again, to use his own words: Because when we aren't busy throwing salt at each other, we actually have a decent amount of fun. :v: [sp]I'm half-expecting an angry message for using Skype quotes, but I'm doing it purely to give his side in the best way, instead of paraphasing shit; the only editing I did was to remove the timestamp and name at the start of each line.[/sp][/QUOTE] Not exclusive to magic systems, I make a lot of houserules in general when I'm GMing something. If I see a way to make a game more enjoyable for me, why wouldn't I? For the record, I don't think Pathfinder or any edition of D&D has a perfect magic system at all. I just think they had a significantly better magic system overall than 4th and 5th editions. 5th edition does have some changes I liked, it just also has some changes I can't accept at all.

Stop arguing children, or you'll be forced to beta-test my system. And neither of two settings being developed for it have magic, so shush!

[QUOTE=gufu;50965984]Stop arguing children, or you'll be forced to beta-test my system. And neither of two settings being developed for it have magic, so shush![/QUOTE] no magic, no play i have a doctors note, it says very strict rules, i'm not allowed to play as a not-magical person. im allergic you see. to not-magic.

AD&D 2e had the best magic, hands down. Fight me.

So I know that Jontron is not everyone's cup of tea, but I think this is important enough to be posted due to cultural reasons [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=subQrEPKytA[/media]

I had an idea one night after a few drinks for a giant monster: a bell tower golem. Literally an animated bell tower formed from a bunch of brick houses whose head was a bell tower. Imagine wandering through a devastated city only to hear a steady *DUUNG* *DOONG* in the distance. And then a fucking angry church starts chasing you.

[QUOTE=Archimedes;50966245]And then a fucking angry church starts chasing you.[/QUOTE] You better have high Dexterity, or this attempt at Shadow of Colossus will go to hell fast. In fact, why not have an Evil Wizard™ hold a city hostage, and show his true power by turning various buildings across the city into building golems, fucking shit up. Maybe you couldn't even outright destroy some of them - maybe it's a nursery full of nuns, kittens, or orphans (or orphaned catgirl nuns), so breaking it is not a choice - you need to get inside and stop the HEART OF DARKNESS™ controlling the building!

Alternatively, have the city be made of a bunch of mechs(magical or technological), and when you try to steal something from a house, the house wakes up and tells you to cut that shit out. If you don't, it chases you down and steals something from inside [I]you[/I]. [sp]Probably your heart.[/sp]