D&D V6 - Edition jokes don't really make sense anymore - Games

That argument would make sense if magic was ever used like science, instead of generally being treated as a plot convenient 'because of the wizard who did it, it is so' Science at least places a burden of explanation on whoever is saying 'because of x y z, then a', whereas magic means you don't have to explain shit, and that's why is so much less satisfying compared to even quasi-scientific explanations and don't get me wrong, I know that quasi-science is total bunk, but if you apply it consistently, it can work even if it makes no external sense. Magic, meanwhile, often time has very few rules that can be universally and consistently applied, allowing it to do whatever it wants whenever it wants

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51028068]That argument would make sense if magic was ever used like science, instead of generally being treated as a plot convenient 'because of the wizard who did it, it is so' Science at least places a burden of explanation on whoever is saying 'because of x y z, then a', whereas magic means you don't have to explain shit, and that's why is so much less satisfying compared to even quasi-scientific explanations and don't get me wrong, I know that quasi-science is total bunk, but if you apply it consistently, it can work even if it makes no external sense. Magic, meanwhile, often time has very few rules that can be universally and consistently applied, allowing it to do whatever it wants whenever it wants[/QUOTE] I disagree At the end of the day, alien races exist because the writer wanted them to be there just like the fantasy races do. In some settings they have really good reasons behind existing, in others they don't, in both genres. Sometimes fantasy races have much better reason behind their existence rather than just being "oh they came from this planet" if anything, the extreme commonness of very, very human-like aliens in sci-fi makes a lot less sense. also pretty much every single sci-fi setting completely kills science right off the bat because FTL is required

[QUOTE=elowin;51028097]i disagree at the end of the day, alien races exist because the writer wanted them to be there just like the fantasy races do if anything, the extreme commonness of very, very human-like aliens in sci-fi makes a lot less sense. also pretty much every single sci-fi setting completely kills science right off the bat because FTL[/QUOTE] Except that's not what I'm saying in the slightest? It doesn't matter if it's EXISTING science, what matters if it's a CONSISTENT application thereof If you accept FTL as a premise of the setting, then as long as you're using the same mechanism of FTL it's going to function roughly the same throughout, and can be applied as a useful solution to a problem based on it's consistent attributes, unless it's very functionality is dependent upon it's own inconsistency (See: the infinite improbability drive) Likewise, if we accept that all evolution is generally being directly towards an optimal endpoint of human-comprehensible/like aliens (because, say, I don't know, all sentience is caused by dark energy from higher-dimensional beings which naturally works to shape vessels that contain it towards an idealized form for that sentience, which is similar across species due to sentience being the same substance), if you can APPLY that logically towards some other task, then it's science The problem with magic is that it is NOT logical, especially in spell-list type systems. In that, the ability to create heat does not equate to creating flame, you cannot extrapolate a protection from elements spell to keep you warm in the cold into a spell that can set enemies on fire by upping the power. You can heal shut certain wounds with your vanilla healing spell, but not reattach lost limbs without the specific spell that lets you do that, no matter how recent the wound. Basically, magic does not apply consistently, and can more or less do ANYTHING it needs to do, but the underlying principle of magic is that every application is unique, and structured to operate ONLY in relation to itself. You cannot extrapolate an application of existing magical uses without creating something entirely new, which is then static in it's capabilities, it cannot be further extrapolated or stretched without again creating something new. tl;dr, science is about principles, while magic is only applications, at least in something like a vancian system like that from which arose the races in D&D. And that's why it's less satisfying to say 'because a wizard' instead of 'because of crazy technojumbo'. Because crazy technojumbo can be reapplied to another end, if you're creative enough. Magic can't. Magic can only do what it says it can do, and the problem is that because it can do so many things with that, magic ends up having no core principle whatsoever that can be used to logically apply it to new functionality, unless that functionality was already within the purview of the spell, without creating something new entirely.

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51025916]to be fair I was the one who initially asked the question (because I was drunk and sort of being forcibly reminded of the fact I totally enabled a mass suicide-by-cop scheme, successfully enacted by my character's most recent paramour, by an electric ghost, so was kind of on a maudlin trip, and just wanted to know if, ignoring the fact we'd worked together, the sammy would kill me off-hand for what I've done given the chance, just on principle) and I just wanted to know where our second primary combatant stood on the issue at this point the only thing preventing me starting a betting pool on if the GM or the party kills me first is the fact that would only act to accelerate my demise at least my legitimate ID actually got us out of the district that was currently in the middle of being napalmed to death without needing to shoot through a checkpoint[/QUOTE] Always bet on Gotz. [QUOTE=gufu;51026094]Why every time I want to make a cybered-up character in SR, I inevitably try to give them the saddest backstory possible? Like sure, let's make a auged up catgirl. Then follow up by making her backstory an ex-bunraku who may or may not be still searched out by her supposed "client" and/or a team of shadowrunners that was supposed to kidnap her for another client. Oh, and possibly her sister might have gone through the same treatment, and may still be with the client. But hey, plot hooks! And extra BP to spend on more augs! And to explain about last Aug char I made - A heavy cybered up gal hunted by a division of Evo, who may or may not have a data safe implanted into her, that's slowly leaking information into her, driving her insane over time. Ah well, better than just another Bard.[/QUOTE] That's fun though, and the abuse of technology is a big cyberpunk theme, most people with a lot of cyberware are not happy people. My current street sam's background includes the area she grew up in getting invaded and turned into a police state, her parents died in a police raid, she got on board with the resistance movement, killed a lot of people, stole bodies, got second hand but top of the line cyberarms, then turned to the shadows as she went from freedom fighter to jaded survivor when the resistance slowly got crushed. [QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51027748]Hey, it's okay, it's better to at least be able to justify why you've resorted to a life of career murder as opposed to 'eh, I need to do SOMETHING to pay the rent'[/QUOTE] [img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5636656/tabletop%20shit/4933356161_e1627aac79_z.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51028123]Except that's not what I'm saying in the slightest? It doesn't matter if it's EXISTING science, what matters if it's a CONSISTENT application thereof If you accept FTL as a premise of the setting, then as long as you're using the same mechanism of FTL it's going to function roughly the same throughout, and can be applied as a useful solution to a problem based on it's consistent attributes, unless it's very functionality is dependent upon it's own inconsistency (See: the infinite improbability drive) Likewise, if we accept that all evolution is generally being directly towards an optimal endpoint of human-comprehensible/like aliens (because, say, I don't know, all sentience is caused by dark energy from higher-dimensional beings which naturally works to shape vessels that contain it towards an idealized form for that sentience, which is similar across species due to sentience being the same substance), if you can APPLY that logically towards some other task, then it's science The problem with magic is that it is NOT logical, especially in spell-list type systems. In that, the ability to create heat does not equate to creating flame, you cannot extrapolate a protection from elements spell to keep you warm in the cold into a spell that can set enemies on fire by upping the power. You can heal shut certain wounds with your vanilla healing spell, but not reattach lost limbs without the specific spell that lets you do that, no matter how recent the wound. Basically, magic does not apply consistently, and can more or less do ANYTHING it needs to do, but the underlying principle of magic is that every application is unique, and structured to operate ONLY in relation to itself. You cannot extrapolate an application of existing magical uses without creating something entirely new, which is then static in it's capabilities, it cannot be further extrapolated or stretched without again creating something new. tl;dr, science is about principles, while magic is only applications, at least in something like a vancian system like that from which arose the races in D&D. And that's why it's less satisfying to say 'because a wizard' instead of 'because of crazy technojumbo'. Because crazy technojumbo can be reapplied to another end, if you're creative enough. Magic can't. Magic can only do what it says it can do, and the problem is that because it can do so many things with that, magic ends up having no core principle whatsoever that can be used to logically apply it to new functionality, unless that functionality was already within the purview of the spell, without creating something new entirely.[/QUOTE] yeah i'm just going to go ahead and repeat "i disagree" because i can't really identify with anything you just said i just think you're wrong

Fantasy = science fiction anyway Orcs = krogan Elves = Asari Goblins = Quarian Halflings = Volus Etc.

[QUOTE=elowin;51028165]yeah i'm just going to go ahead and repeat "i disagree" because i can't really identify with anything you just said i just think you're wrong[/QUOTE] Science has a basis in logic, it is assumed that it follows the basic scientific method and can be expected to function similarly through different test cases. With science and engineering, I can create a flaming sword via a spur, some flint, and some oil coating the blade. This of course is pretty dangerous and could be interesting to find a way to get around that. With magic, I create a flaming sword by simply willing it into being, but it doesn't follow any natural laws and is safe because I said so. It doesn't have the same properties as a 'normal' flaming sword and has no logical rule-set other than it's own. For all I know I could have one flaming sword with blue flames that don't set anything on fire and doesn't emanate heat, and another flaming sword with red flames that act like flame should but for some reason only works twice a day. Magic doesn't follow any rules, it doesn't pay attention to even basic physics (unless its convenient), it doesn't make logical sense.

[QUOTE=ntzu;51028644]Science has a basis in logic, it is assumed that it follows the basic scientific method and can be expected to function similarly through different test cases. With science and engineering, I can create a flaming sword via a spur, some flint, and some oil coating the blade. This of course is pretty dangerous and could be interesting to find a way to get around that. With magic, I create a flaming sword by simply willing it into being, but it doesn't follow any natural laws and is safe because I said so. It doesn't have the same properties as a 'normal' flaming sword and has no logical rule-set other than it's own. For all I know I could have one flaming sword with blue flames that don't set anything on fire and doesn't emanate heat, and another flaming sword with red flames that act like flame should but for some reason only works twice a day. Magic doesn't follow any rules, it doesn't pay attention to even basic physics (unless its convenient), it doesn't make logical sense.[/QUOTE] Except in most science fiction settings, science doesn't make any sense either. And vice versa in some fantasy settings, magic follows very specific rules.

[QUOTE=ntzu;51028644]Science has a basis in logic, it is assumed that it follows the basic scientific method and can be expected to function similarly through different test cases. With science and engineering, I can create a flaming sword via a spur, some flint, and some oil coating the blade. This of course is pretty dangerous and could be interesting to find a way to get around that. With magic, I create a flaming sword by simply willing it into being, but it doesn't follow any natural laws and is safe because I said so. It doesn't have the same properties as a 'normal' flaming sword and has no logical rule-set other than it's own. For all I know I could have one flaming sword with blue flames that don't set anything on fire and doesn't emanate heat, and another flaming sword with red flames that act like flame should but for some reason only works twice a day. Magic doesn't follow any rules, it doesn't pay attention to even basic physics (unless its convenient), it doesn't make logical sense.[/QUOTE] I'm can't argue the science, I'm not smart enough for that, but to me, saying that magic doesn't follow any rules or logic imho that just seems like bad storytelling.

[QUOTE=elowin;51028657]Except in most science fiction settings, science doesn't make any sense either. And vice versa in some fantasy settings, magic follows very specific rules.[/QUOTE] That's whats typically called more 'science fantasy' than science fiction, if the science behind a setting's technology makes zero logical sense even in relation to each other than the writer basically used technology as a stand-in for ~~the weave~~ or wherever magic comes from. Either because they don't actually understand how technology works or they simply didn't care. Even when magic follows specific rules its usually utilized in arbitrary ways that can be presented as pretty big plot holes, much like inadequately explained technology. An old star trek analogy for instance, do you think any star trek episode would have nearly as much tension if they didn't explain to you why the transporter couldn't get them out? It grounds you in the story to know that the technology has limits, and those limits are very clearly presented and reproducable. Meanwhile in a similar magical setting the farthest explanation you're likely to get is 'im out of contact with the weave' or 'im out of magic juice' or 'their magic is blocking mine' [QUOTE=_Maverick_;51028684]I'm can't argue the science, I'm not smart enough for that, but to me, saying that magic doesn't follow any rules or logic imho that just seems like bad storytelling.[/QUOTE] It is, but magic lets you get away with it much more than a sci-fi setting otherwise would, it has to do with the standard audience for those mediums. [QUOTE=elowin;51028758]No. Because the "explanations" for the "science" fiction bullshit is just as much bullshit, it's just using bullshit science instead of bullshit magic. Taking your Star Trek example, there are plenty of times where previously established restrictions on the transporter have been broken, either just explaining it away with yet another technobabble solution or in some instances not even bringing it up. Also, science fantasy is something completely different.[/QUOTE] Even when that happens they usually try to ground it as much as possible with the previous rules, explaining why those rules were broken and why they can't be broken more often. Sci-fi is about pushing the borders of whats humanly possible and examining that future, it's about the forward momentum of technology and humanities progress. Fantasy is more concerned with isolated world building and a more traditional view on what fantasy 'should' be, usually by maintaining a status quo. Lots of fantasy settings have the usual 'everyone has been using swords and fireballs for 100,000 years' trope for that reason. This is all mostly personal preference anyways, im not saying that magic is stupid and all media pertaining to it is garbage, im just trying to make clear to you their typical narrative differences.

[QUOTE=ntzu;51028689]That's whats typically called more 'science fantasy' than science fiction, if the science behind a setting's technology makes zero logical sense even in relation to each other than the writer basically used technology as a stand-in for ~~the weave~~ or wherever magic comes from. Either because they don't actually understand how technology works or they simply didn't care. Even when magic follows specific rules its usually utilized in arbitrary ways that can be presented as pretty big plot holes, much like inadequately explained technology. An old star trek analogy for instance, do you think any star trek episode would have nearly as much tension if they didn't explain to you why the transporter couldn't get them out? It grounds you in the story to know that the technology has limits, and those limits are very clearly presented and reproducable. Meanwhile in a similar magical setting the farthest explanation you're likely to get is 'im out of contact with the weave' or 'im out of magic juice' or 'their magic is blocking mine'[/QUOTE] No. Because the "explanations" for the "science" fiction bullshit is just as much bullshit, it's just using bullshit science instead of bullshit magic. Taking your Star Trek example, there are plenty of times where previously established restrictions on the transporter have been broken, either just explaining it away with yet another technobabble solution or in some instances not even bringing it up. Also, science fantasy is something completely different.

I can't decide between making an Oath of Vengeance Paladin who draws their power from the spirit of their deceased child, or a Wild Magic Dwarven Sorcerer just because it seems fun.

Alright, finished first actual session on the Saturday 40k thing after yesterday briefing. We were missing our sharpshooter but hey, it was pretty good. [IMG]https://i.gyazo.com/a23d968afa52ad1c9d6d68576083b0d5.jpg[/IMG] This is a map with the notes / drawings of our sergeant, Aleksander. So as of current we have Tybalt the stormtrooper, Aleksander the Sergeant, Wichman the weapons specialist, and Ziel the chirugeon. They started in LZ on top over there and moved through the waters whilst two land bridges delved into warzones, allowing them to sneak in. Their first battle was being caught by a tower outpost whilst in a boat. They all attempted to fire, however most of the time they missed. Especially Wichman, who due to Random Issue Gear was able to have Stormtrooper Carapace and a Boltgun. Wichman throughout the session had terrible rolls. The only time they had high rolls were during logistics. After the Field Chirugeon Ziel had the idea to drive the boat into the beach into grots charging Aleksander, they recuperated and moved on. They ended up sighting a large Ork force moving through whilst arguing amongst themselves, destined to the North. They tried to roll for stealth, but all of them did it horribly. Two orks spotted them and attempted to check what they were. The stormtrooper decided to rise in his cameoline suit and then making a screeching sound in order to scare them off. He actually succeeded, making them run away in fear of "red 'umies". The others did not care, for all they saw was a severed gretchin head that Tybalt took from one of the small orks earlier. They met the two again the next day, along with two other Orks. We ended the session after Aleksander charged the slugga and destroyed him. I still don't know how these guys are gonna act when they get ambushed by long-ranged snipers without their sharpshooter might as well because their skills are really bad until they actually hit within 10 meters of range

[QUOTE=elowin;51028758]No. Because the "explanations" for the "science" fiction bullshit is just as much bullshit, it's just using bullshit science instead of bullshit magic. Taking your Star Trek example, there are plenty of times where previously established restrictions on the transporter have been broken, either just explaining it away with yet another technobabble solution or in some instances not even bringing it up. Also, science fantasy is something completely different.[/QUOTE] Star Trek is a franchise that has been around for half a century. Technobable is gonna be established and broken, because of dozens of writers and constantly changing the basics. Just like for example, Warp-capable ships were required to have engines in clear view of each other as well as to be in pairs, only for years later, for that change. Also, Star Trek is soft as a pillow, Harder settings are more fun anyway (and actually have interesting weapons). [editline]10th September 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Chayste;51030377]I still don't know how these guys are gonna act when they get ambushed by long-ranged snipers without their sharpshooter[/QUOTE] [URL="https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Vindicare"]Ork Snipers, huh?[/URL]

'Marksrokzship meanz ya gits gotta shoot twice as many dakka, dat means you hit more shotz!'

[QUOTE=gufu;51030536]Star Trek is a franchise that has been around for half a century. Technobable is gonna be established and broken, because of dozens of writers and constantly changing the basics. Just like for example, Warp-capable ships were required to have engines in clear view of each other as well as to be in pairs, only for years later, for that change. Also, Star Trek is soft as a pillow, Harder settings are more fun anyway (and actually have interesting weapons).[/QUOTE] Exactly the point. Science and technology is Star Trek is pretty much pure bullshit, just bullshit with a coat of science-y paint. Even hard science settings usually have a couple pieces of bullshit technology, and that technology is still just as much a made up fake thing as magic is no matter science-y the explanation, or how much the rest of the setting isn't full of bullshit. It's just a different flavor of bullshit. It's made up gobblygook that the writers needed either to tell the kind of story they wanted to tell or provide a certain kind of flavor to the setting.

dnd still racist

[QUOTE=cdr248;51030981]dnd still racist[/QUOTE] can't be racist against child molesting children fucking gnomes

[QUOTE=elowin;51030966]It's made up gobblygook that the writers needed either to tell the kind of story they wanted to tell or provide a certain kind of flavor to the setting.[/QUOTE] This is why we need to burn all the books and PDFs of games with magic in them, and only play Battletech and CP2022 derivatives until end of time!

[QUOTE=gufu;51031470]This is why we need to burn all the books and PDFs of games with magic in them, and only play Battletech and CP2022 derivatives until end of time![/QUOTE] Wow look at this nerd Unrealistic AF What he should be saying is we should only play mundane d20 Modern games. Locked at level 1.

what the fuck is cp2022 i better not be missing a fucking splat because if that's a real thing and not a typo then i'm gonna be 2020% mad

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51031527]Wow look at this nerd Unrealistic AF What he should be saying is we should only play mundane d20 Modern games. Locked at level 1.[/QUOTE] Roll to get out of bed.

[QUOTE=Axznma;51031572]Roll to get out of bed.[/QUOTE] Make your life/death saves against your cat.

[quote][URL="https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Vindicare"]Ork Snipers, huh?[/URL][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51030951]'Marksrokzship meanz ya gits gotta shoot twice as many dakka, dat means you hit more shotz!'[/QUOTE] uh severan dominate troopers? in a valley? how about severan dominate troopers on top of the valley while orks come from both sides while the characteres are in the middle of the valley

Man we keep missing sessions because people have actual lives, uuugh. Well at least I've got time to think up possible new characters if I need to reroll (with this DM I probably will)I've got a couple I want to share. ([B]Badger [/B]if you're reading this please don't read the spoilers) [sp]Ado: My current character's son. Now the chief of his people after his father's exile, he was leading a raiding party that was ambushed, leaving him the sole survivor. He stumbles upon the party in some probably crazy way that the DM will think up on the spot (last time someone joined mid session we pulled him out of a drain pipe.) Has his father's features, and his people's trademarked cruelty and brutality (especially towards settled folk), but otherwise tries to be unlike his father in every way. Arrogant, maybe even more than his father since he's actually in a position of power, he feels himself to be the prime example of humanity, the absolute pinnacle in terms of nobility, cunning, and appearance. [/sp]Human, will probably be a fighter depending on what I roll. Cornellius: A sorcerer who has absolutely no fucking clue what he's doing, or really about anything, he's insane. Wears ten rings, each with a letter on it, when people ask his name he'll need a second to look at all his rings and then he'll excitedly reply "Cornellius!" Will imitate whatever the party's other sorceror is doing and will trust him implicitly. Has a good heart and wants to do what's right, but he doesn't quite understand what that is, so he looks to others for guidance. Will be played more for laughs than my other characters, who are usually grimly serious assholes who are mostly comedic OOC rather than IC. This character might be tricky to get, because I'm going to need an 11 or higher on my INT roll because literacy is kinda important to this character.

Just make rainman and use the Magic of statistics and genetic faults

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51027748]Hey, it's okay, it's better to at least be able to justify why you've resorted to a life of career murder as opposed to 'eh, I need to do SOMETHING to pay the rent'[/QUOTE] Ho boy, just finished her up. Now to never play her because no sane SR GM would ever allow for a non-combat oriented character that couldn't just be a face (because a 12 year old face just doesn't work). Although, as a viable infiltrator, she might work out - even corpsec would take a moment before shooting to kill what is obviously a small child.

[QUOTE=gufu;51033002]Ho boy, just finished her up. Now to never play her because no sane SR GM would ever allow for a non-combat oriented character that couldn't just be a face (because a 12 year old face just doesn't work). Although, as a viable infiltrator, she might work out - even corpsec would take a moment before shooting to kill what is obviously a small child.[/QUOTE] oh so it's not only a catgirl sex slave but it's also a 12 year old yes, we have officially entered the magical realm. piss fountains are to your left, shit mountains to your right. lolis? straight ahead

I swear to god FPers come up with creepier characters than the Shadowrun room on f-list. [editline]11th September 2016[/editline] At least on there everyone's upfront about their character being fetishy

Why is it always Shadowrun that gets the creepiest characters?