D&D V6 - Edition jokes don't really make sense anymore - Games

Last session was eventful. Scyles awoke to find the town burned to the ground and everyone but the party dead. The party was strangely non-confrontational towards Scyles even though he just committed small-scale genocide in front of them. The rogue was upset but that was about it, as in actuality, the Rogue, Scyles, and the Wizard were the only people who actually know Scyles attempted to start the fire. But still, the party was a little tired of Scyles' shit, the bard found out that since he is an avatar of some deity (we don't know which) he could cause things to happen with enough belief, and animated a coin. Scyles thought everyone was lying about what had happened (everyone died and all the gold turned into worthless scrap because of magic) and proclaimed "Either we have discovered the secret to life, magic, and the universe, or someone is lying!" Scyles pointed a lot of fingers, and the party left him with the coin, Scyles rode off on his own, never to be seen again (or will he?) So then the party came across a city run by the family of the party's barbarian. The barbarian is great, he come from a line of "business mercenaries" who worship an old hero named "Lord Fiskal, the Sound". My new character was denied entry into the local "Assassin's Guild", he failed the physical (7 strength and 6 con). My new character is a short (but taller than Scyles) human fighter known to the party as Kyonirax. Kyonirax is very humble compared to Scyles, but he seems to be holding something back. The party found out that the "Hero's Guild" which the party was a part of until now, has been trying to control the world by use of mind control magics. The "Hero's Guild" required that you get a magic seal on your hand for membership, this seal can influence your mind, the magic gets more powerful as you rank up in the guild. So everyone got their seals off, and Kyonirax got to join the "Assassin's Guild" by association. The bard animated a whole lot more coins and the session ended.

Speaking of eventful sessions: This Thursday I completed the longest session I've ever played. It's in the Curse of Strahd campaign I've been a part of these last couple of months. I play a Tiefling Warlock named Azimov Romanof. It lasted from 18:00 pm to 04:45. There was two pee brakes and one for a McDonalds run. That's 11 hours of session with effective playtime clocking in at roughly nine and a half hours. We were so loopy at the end we ended up making some stupid mistakes that made for a suspenseful cliffhanger. I wrote up a decent summary to a friend of mine too. It has a lot of subplots cut out, but make a decent job of summing up the plot of the session. [quote]Ok, so this was a fucking rollecoaster, a full 11 hours session with so much hysterical laughter, fantastic character moments, incredible highs and a full on tragic cliffhanger ending. We're in this town right? We know that the Bûrgermeister has this idea that keeping the locals happy is instrumental to keeping the devil Strahd away, so what has he done? Imposed a law enforced with an iron claw (specifically Izek, his chief of happiness police [an actual thing] who has a mutant claw hand) That literally states that you will be thrown in prison for indoctrination for not smiling. There's a new mandatory festival every week, and tomorrow is the festival of the Sun. We're already on decent terms with Izek since we helped him detain a non-smiler the first day we arrived in town and fed the guy these hallucinogenic cookies that we got from a hag that made him laugh uncontrollably for the next 8 hours. Promising to secure a full stash and start a drug empire in the town was also favorable. ANYWAYS. After some business at a local vineyard we introduced ourselves to the Bûrgemeister at his estate, warning him of brewing trouble outside of the town. We met up with Izek again and got a brilliant idea: We absolutely loved the idea of a literal Gestapo forcing the people to be happy with an iron rule, ( I mean come on, the thought is hilarious) so we asked him for the privilege to become deputy officers. What we didn't expect was that he immediately took us up on the offer and gave us actual badges and a permission to uphold the law of the city when accompanied by him or another senior officer. We immediately wanted to join a round and he was just as it happens on his way to a raid. They had some semi-good intel on a guy that were unhappy. It was Us, Izek and a small task force. The plan was kick down the door, catch him red handed being unhappy and detain him. This is where Pernille comes into play. She is my Bat familiar, and as an action I can switch my consciousnesses to her and use her as a fantastic scout with advantage on all hearing checks. So Pernille went in and I heard five guys wrapping up a meeting. In the vein of "Ok, so we're all in agreement. It's going down tomorrow night at the sun festival. We will take the entire town back" I immediately take my team (aka the party) to the back door while Izek is kicking down the front and we're all yelling HPD (Happiness police department) GET ON THE FUCKING GROUND. A small fight breaks out, one dissident is killed and the rest is captured. Our wonderful bard Charms one of the guys to get him to tell us that the whole town is a powder keg and they have 50-200 rebels ready for a coup tomorrow. Fuck that shit. We just got a small taste of regimental power and we're not gonna have some rebellion get in the way of our newfound status as members of the Happiness Gestapo. After a VERY successful raid that lead to the capture of and uncovering a rebel plot we were all fucking promoted to full fledged Officers of the HPD. With me getting an additional promotion to Vice-senior joyhunter for my integral part in acquiring the vital intel about the gunpowder plot. After a crisis-meeting with the Bûrgermeister we laid a plan to nip the rebellion in the bud the next morning and make brutal examples of the rebellion leaders to ensure law and order in the town. By this time we were full on supporters of the regime and we had lengthy discussions about how to best crush the rebellion and what actions would benefit us the most. We agreed that siding with the regime would give us the strongest positions if we won, but a vital part of the plan was to hold on for as long as possible to the chance of switching sides at any time should the fight go against us. To maintain plausible deniability and be able to trick the rebels that we were on their sides all along. After the meeting our Bard also suggest a "stop and tickle" policy to Izek. (totally a play on "stop and frisk" the entire session was absolutely loaded with Trump humor, forgive us, as we're not american) And He actually liked the idea, and would make sure that it would end up with the Bûrgermeister. So we were walking home to our tavern after a loong ingame day, and our Cleric spots a guy following us. Too much is at stake for us to take chances, so we give chase immediately and catches up to him, dragging him to an alley. With a sickle to his throat and Azimov telling him deadpanned that if he doesn't do exactly as we tell him he'll kill him (and totally meaning it)(and rolling a crit on intimidation) he sang like a canary. He was hired by a local rich noble woman that wanted to keep an eye on us. She had also been holding conspicuous meeting in her basement the last couple of months for over a hundred people. Fucking baller. She's the ringleader. He tells Azimov that for a price he'll shut his mouth, but in a moment of pure character I said to him deadpanned that he already knew too much and slit his throat. I don't even know what came over me, I was just so wrapped up in the character. We had a good talk about it as players afterwards, and luckily everyone loved the moment and no one was upset that I killed him without consulting the group.(I felt like a real Adam for a while) It was at this point I realized that "Holy shit, Azimov isn't chaotic, he's true Neutral. He will do some pretty horrible shit to attain his goals" What was good about this whole encounter was that we had a brilliant idea: We could plant the body in the garden of the noble and have probable cause to forcefully enter her residence the next day because "So what's up with the body in your garden and BTW are you the leader of the rebellion" The next day we inform the Bûrgermeister and the chief of HPD (Izek) about the new developments and us uncovering the ringleader. Lo and behold, some promotions were in order. I was now the Sargent Joyhunter, second only to Izek and the Bûrgermeister himself. "Stop and tickle" was now adopted as a town wide policy and The bard was now chief joy adviser to the Bürgermeister, acting as sort of an MP, but in the field I outranked him. The other party members also got honorary titles, but not rank. We all get uniforms that may or may not have been long black trench coats with yellow smiley armbands and we prepare the black ops raid on the leaders house. We set it up with snipers on roofs, and a shock team standing by, the whole kit and kaboodle. Our party enters first and try to get a confession out of her using zone of truth but she's a slippery bitch that know how to talk when in the zone to not give anything away. This is where we make our first huge mistake. We grow tired of her word games and officially arrest her on suspicion of treason to the regime. We want her arrest to be discreet, so we chain her up, I make her invisible and we send her to the Bûrgermeister with four of the five expendable guards in our task force. Big big mistake. We should have put her in house arrest, or at least escorted her ourself, as she apparently was a capable caster. Minutes after sending her away we were ransacking the house and suddenly we were hearing screams outside. Calls to arms and uprising. Shit shit shit this wasn't supposed to happen. We go outside with Izek and the single remaining guard and are confronted by a mob of angry rebels. Falling too quickly back on plan B (this was our second big mistake) I scream out our "true" intent: To infiltrate the regime from the inside and take down the oppressors. One Nat 20 on my Deception check (for a total of 26) later and bada bing bada boom we're fighting Izek now. He was caught in a hold person from the rebels and we were critting him left and right. Luckily he has a shitton of health and three turns later a shitton of regime guards storms in. Problem is, we'we flipped to the rebels. We decide to deal with one problem at a time and make a break for the Bûrgemeisters estate. Before we run though I whisper into Izek's ear "I'm so sorry, of course we're still on your side, but events are unfolding faster than anyone could predict. Wheels within wheels. Know that we are true friends of the regime" or something like that. DM didn't even made me roll deception because that was the (more or less) honest truth. Now on the regime side again we healed him up a good bit before we made a break for the estate, hoping to war it out there, or if it became absolutely necessary: Flip once more over to the rebels. Then fucking surprise surprise: Strahd fucking shows up outta nowhere and wrecks the fucking town! The leader of the rebellion had said that she had connections to Strahd, but we took it as bluffing. everything is going haywire and people are herded through the streets like cattle by several vampire spawn and Strahd himself. a lot of stuff happened that ties too much in to a lot of stuff that happened in earlier sessions that would take too long to write (god knows I've written enough) but it all boils down to that we had to sacrifice a woman npc that we had helped escape from another town to this because trahd were hunting her, and he left the town getting what he wanted. After that happened and everyone started calming down from the wild panic (The rebellion was entirely forgotten at this point, which was the only silver lining) our mistakes quickly caught up with us. Izek was fucking FURIOUS. Both I as a PC and my character fucking love the guy and when the DM RP'd him screaming at me, I felt legitimately horrible. (yes we are still talking about the gestapo leader of the iron hand regime. He's fucking awesome and I want his job so bad) This was the second fucking great RP moment I had in this amazing session. I had been the leader of our group and of highest rank, so Izek's fury (and most of the blame) fell on me. The bard got field demoted back to grunt, but I was stripped of all rank and thrown in isolation. The session ended with Azimov sitting alone in a cell awaiting military court. Where I will have to defend myself next session [/quote] TLDR: In two days I became a key member of the secret police maintaining the mandatory joy in a city, and was stripped of all rank and thrown in jail for being a traitor. All in all a good session, and we made level four by the end.

[QUOTE=SiberysTranq;51364152]Forgot 'Legal'[/QUOTE] I've always wanted a Beuracromancer archetype, some kind of caster who pettions powerful entities for power and issues bonding sanctions upon his enemies but he has to uphold the ideals of his clients. Picture a cleric but instead of a church its and business.

I don't browse this thread regularly, so pardon me if this has already been posted. I recently heard about a homebrew magic item with a lot of ingenuity behind it: The ring of misspelling. It's wicked powerful and requires some inventiveness from the PC and a lot from the DM. The Ring of misspelling allows the user to cast any spell though it, but remove, add or change a single letter of the spells name. When cast this way, the spell result reflects the new name given. A Light cantrip could be changed to Blight of Flight, for instance. the actual effectiveness of the new spell is decided by the DM. Some of my favorite spells include: Defect thoughts Wall of Lame Wall of nice (canadian version) Massage Remove nurse Narkvision (to spot city guards) Planeshit Funbeam Cone of old Grope Trick

[QUOTE=The Jack;51364106]I think we should name damages as such Physical political social Economic Emotional post traumatic Existential Out of character[/QUOTE] And the greatest of all, Jean-Claude Van Damage.

[QUOTE=xeo xeo;51364832]I don't browse this thread regularly, so pardon me if this has already been posted. I recently heard about a homebrew magic item with a lot of ingenuity behind it: The ring of misspelling. It's wicked powerful and requires some inventiveness from the PC and a lot from the DM. The Ring of misspelling allows the user to cast any spell though it, but remove, add or change a single letter of the spells name. When cast this way, the spell result reflects the new name given. A Light cantrip could be changed to Blight of Flight, for instance. the actual effectiveness of the new spell is decided by the DM. Some of my favorite spells include: Defect thoughts Wall of Lame Wall of nice (canadian version) Massage Remove nurse Narkvision (to spot city guards) Planeshit Funbeam Cone of old Grope Trick[/QUOTE] Immediate problem I see is that you could just add "s" to a spell to instantaneously make it better. Fireball? How about fireballs. Walls of Fire. Cones of Cold. Disintegrations. Fingers of Death. Meteor Swarms, et cetera. I think that might get old relatively quick. Also, grope trick might be mostly innocuous but just wait until you see rape trick. :nope:

[QUOTE=elowin;51364896]Immediate problem I see is that you could just add "s" to a spell to instantaneously make it better. Fireball? How about [B]fireballs.[/B] Walls of Fire.[B] Cones of Cold.[/B] Disintegrations. Fingers of Death. Meteor Swarms, et cetera. I think that might get old relatively quick. Also, grope trick might be mostly innocuous but just wait until you see rape trick. :nope:[/QUOTE] The Gm only need get creative! Fireballs? You now have an STD, Cones of cold? Everyone gets ice-cream. Fingers of death? Your hands are overcome with pins and needles.

Last session's combat encounter had me missing literally every single attack. I even rolled 3 natural 1s in a row.

[QUOTE=thisguy123;51365108]The Gm only need get creative! Fireballs? You now have an STD, Cones of cold? Everyone gets ice-cream. Fingers of death? Your hands are overcome with pins and needles.[/QUOTE] And now it's a frankly unusable magic item that takes precious limited resources and either wastes them or straight up backfires.

How do you guys handle instant death damage? I usually play with the rule that if something gets hit down to negative it's max HP it dies instantly. One of my players (who is new to this group) argues that if you go for a non-lethal kill this instant death rule should be ignored (he wanted to knock out a bandit but hit him down to his negative max hp, resulting in death).

[QUOTE=Whyt546;51365446]How do you guys handle instant death damage? I usually play with the rule that if something gets hit down to negative it's max HP it dies instantly. One of my players (who is new to this group) argues that if you go for a non-lethal kill this instant death rule should be ignored (he wanted to knock out a bandit but hit him down to his negative max hp, resulting in death).[/QUOTE] Depends on the system. In Pathfinder, and I'm pretty sure 5e as well, you die when your HP hits a negative amount equal to your Con score(so, eg, the average person dies at -10 HP.) Non-Lethal damage knocks someone out when they get a total amount equal to their current HP(so, someone with 20 HP left, even if they had 40 max, who takes 2 attacks that each do 10 non-lethal damage, would be knocked out). Any non-lethal damage past that doesn't do anything, assuming the chunky salsa rule doesn't come up. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] The Chunky Salsa Rule, for reference, being that if anything happens to a character that would, logically, reduce their head to the consistency of chunky salsa, they're fucking dead. So if a big ass troll(Tolkien trolls, that is) tries to smack you in the head with a tree, then even if they're aiming to do non-lethal, you're probably dead if they hit.

[QUOTE=Rats808;51365473]Depends on the system. In Pathfinder, and I'm pretty sure 5e as well, you die when your HP hits a negative amount equal to your Con score(so, eg, the average person dies at -10 HP.) Non-Lethal damage knocks someone out when they get a total amount equal to their current HP(so, someone with 20 HP left, even if they had 40 max, who takes 2 attacks that each do 10 non-lethal damage, would be knocked out). Any non-lethal damage past that doesn't do anything, assuming the chunky salsa rule doesn't come up. [editline]13th November 2016[/editline] The Chunky Salsa Rule, for reference, being that if anything happens to a character that would, logically, reduce their head to the consistency of chunky salsa, they're fucking dead. So if a big ass troll(Tolkien trolls, that is) tries to smack you in the head with a tree, then even if they're aiming to do non-lethal, you're probably dead if they hit.[/QUOTE] The chunky salsa rule isn't real. It's a houserule. And a rather stupid one.

[QUOTE=Whyt546;51365446]How do you guys handle instant death damage? I usually play with the rule that if something gets hit down to negative it's max HP it dies instantly. One of my players (who is new to this group) argues that if you go for a non-lethal kill this instant death rule should be ignored (he wanted to knock out a bandit but hit him down to his negative max hp, resulting in death).[/QUOTE] Well, here's the direct rule on non-lethal damage. "When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant damage is dealt" And instant death, though normally only for PC. "Instant Death. Massive damage can kill you instantly. When damage reduces you to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, you die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds your hit point maximum." The triggers are different, so technically you could argue that both apply. Such as, "You wack them on the neck hard enough to knock them out, but their skull caves in." Alternatively, you might view damage rolls as a case of how successful you were at your intended goal. Which in this case, he might be right. Finally, in these cases you could roll a D20. On a DCXX you overdo and kill them, or not.

[QUOTE=GLH;51365112]Last session's combat encounter had me missing literally every single attack. I even rolled 3 natural 1s in a row.[/QUOTE] The dice gods had to balance out me rolling several nat 20s yesterday I suppose, sorry mate.

[QUOTE=elowin;51365654]The chunky salsa rule isn't real. It's a houserule. And a rather stupid one.[/QUOTE] It's literally a rule in the rulebook. If something that would logically mulch your character happens, you're dead, full stop.

If we're talking 3.5, I know that's specifically an optional rule and it's so open to GM interpretation that if it was a core rule that'd be a terrible thing

I think SR5's rules about explosions in enclosed spaces are called the chunky salsa rule too?

[QUOTE=Whyt546;51365446]How do you guys handle instant death damage? I usually play with the rule that if something gets hit down to negative it's max HP it dies instantly. One of my players (who is new to this group) argues that if you go for a non-lethal kill this instant death rule should be ignored (he wanted to knock out a bandit but hit him down to his negative max hp, resulting in death).[/QUOTE] Punishing players for rolling too well is generally an awful idea. I know for a fact that if my sap using rogue killed people with nonlethal damage she'd be up there in the kill count rather than on zero.

[QUOTE=Alsojames;51366326]It's literally a rule in the rulebook. If something that would logically mulch your character happens, you're dead, full stop.[/QUOTE] 5th edition? Sure don't remember nothing like this from 2 or 3e. So now every attack from anything large ought to be instant death, lmao. What a stupid rule.

So I've been working on a simple RPG system with a friend and the map I had already done for my writing purposes wasn't large enough, or suited for tabletop RPG. So my friend remade it, and boy is it fucking huge. [url=https://my.mixtape.moe/wbuxgq.png]53MB file warning[/url]

sounds like you're removing a lot of player agency if you remove their ability to knock people unconscious if they so desire it

I think it's less removing player agency and more incentive to not try and use 'I'm non-lethally attacking' as a magic knock people unconscious button like, if you hit someone hard with something you're gonna risk killing them whether it's a warhammer or your fist

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;51366835]I think it's less removing player agency and more incentive to not try and use 'I'm non-lethally attacking' as a magic knock people unconscious button like, if you hit someone hard with something you're gonna risk killing them whether it's a warhammer or your fist[/QUOTE] But its considerably harder to kill someone with a gut punch than it is to cave someone's skull in with a warhammer. And usually there's no option to reduce your damage output other than nerfing yourself.

[QUOTE=Vengeful Falcon;51366864]But its considerably harder to kill someone with a gut punch than it is to cave someone's skull in with a warhammer. And usually there's no option to reduce your damage output other than nerfing yourself.[/QUOTE] In 5th edition, you can always make an unarmed attack, which deals only 1 + your Strength mod in damage (more if you have the Tavern Brawler feat or are a monk, but in the former case it still won't usually be enough to kill someone and in the latter it's optional). Considering you need to deal overkill damage equal to the creatures' maximum hit points, you're very unlikely to kill someone that way.

[QUOTE=Glent;51366883]In 5th edition, you can always make an unarmed attack, which deals only 1 + your Strength mod in damage (more if you have the Tavern Brawler feat or are a monk, but in the former case it still won't usually be enough to kill someone and in the latter it's optional). Considering you need to deal overkill damage equal to the creatures' maximum hit points, you're very unlikely to kill someone that way.[/QUOTE] But realistically, that means that a player has to do just enough lethal damage (since doing 1+Str mod damage an attack is awful) to lower them to a point where they can be knocked out. Which doesn't really make sense and nor is it fun. D&D is stupidly abstract, trying to simulate lethality to a level that just frustrates players isn't fun. If a player is just using a sword and declaring nonlethal all the time, then that's dumb and they should just take a nonlethal weapon but if they want to capture one dude I don't see why it should be difficult, and I don't see a reason why anyone should ever be punished for a good dice roll. Realistically killing people is often a lot harder than D&D will simulate (until you get to the higher levels where people can get cut to ribbons and keep going), since people don't tend to die cleanly or quickly when you're hitting them with sharp/heavy metal objects.

[QUOTE=GLH;51365112]Last session's combat encounter had me missing literally every single attack. I even rolled 3 natural 1s in a row.[/QUOTE] I had a session like this once awhile back. My characters tend to be the main melee dps and I'm frequently the most accurate character in the party. There was one session though where I could count the number of attacks I landed in a four hour play session (a solid 4-5 encounters) on a single hand. Luckily though one of those blows was at least the most important blow of the session. We were up against the big bad of an adventure line who was a melee character (blackguard iirc) several levels above us. That one blow was a crit and dealt like 2/3rds of his hp in one shot making it so we could just barely successfully kill him without a single party member managing to die. I frequently have completely garbage luck where the only reason I'm not totally useless in a given session is simply because I tend to build useful characters for the party (Ie: having the highest BAB in the entire party and managing to still be the least accurate somehow or having the highest initiative and consistently rolling low enough to make me go last or close to last in the turn order) but that session was exceptionally bad compared to usual. Apparently the d20 I was using just hated me because I'd roll nothing higher than a 6 like 90% of the time and every single time one of the other party members would use it they'd roll nothing below a 15.

[QUOTE=Vengeful Falcon;51367309]But realistically, that means that a player has to do just enough lethal damage (since doing 1+Str mod damage an attack is awful) to lower them to a point where they can be knocked out. Which doesn't really make sense and nor is it fun. D&D is stupidly abstract, trying to simulate lethality to a level that just frustrates players isn't fun. If a player is just using a sword and declaring nonlethal all the time, then that's dumb and they should just take a nonlethal weapon but if they want to capture one dude I don't see why it should be difficult, and I don't see a reason why anyone should ever be punished for a good dice roll. Realistically killing people is often a lot harder than D&D will simulate (until you get to the higher levels where people can get cut to ribbons and keep going), since people don't tend to die cleanly or quickly when you're hitting them with sharp/heavy metal objects.[/QUOTE] That's not really relevant to the example you were giving. Like you said, it's easier to kill someone unintentionally when you're using a sword or a warhammer, and harder to do it when you're making an unarmed attack. It's already incredibly difficult to unintentionally kill someone with massive damage. A standard 2d8+2 hp bandit needs to be overkilled by 11 points of damage to kill them (on average). If they were on just 1 hit point then you would have to deal 12 points of damage to kill them, needing you to (at low level when you're fighting those sorts of enemies) at minimum be two-handing your weapon (for 1d10+3 damage with a longsword or similar weapon). At which point, yeah you might kill them if you're going all out with your sword like that. Or you could punch them and have no risk of killing the bandit.

[QUOTE=Glent;51367350]That's not really relevant to the example you were giving. Like you said, it's easier to kill someone unintentionally when you're using a sword or a warhammer, and harder to do it when you're making an unarmed attack. It's already incredibly difficult to unintentionally kill someone with massive damage. A standard 2d8+2 hp bandit needs to be overkilled by 11 points of damage to kill them (on average). If they were on just 1 hit point then you would have to deal 12 points of damage to kill them, needing you to (at low level when you're fighting those sorts of enemies) at minimum be two-handing your weapon (for 1d10+3 damage with a longsword or similar weapon). At which point, yeah you might kill them if you're going all out with your sword like that. Or you could punch them and have no risk of killing the bandit.[/QUOTE] an average bandit is level 2?

[QUOTE=elowin;51367375]an average bandit is level 2?[/QUOTE] no, an average bandit has 2d8+2 (11 average) hp. They're CR 1/8.

[QUOTE=Glent;51367350]That's not really relevant to the example you were giving. Like you said, it's easier to kill someone unintentionally when you're using a sword or a warhammer, and harder to do it when you're making an unarmed attack. It's already incredibly difficult to unintentionally kill someone with massive damage. A standard 2d8+2 hp bandit needs to be overkilled by 11 points of damage to kill them (on average). If they were on just 1 hit point then you would have to deal 12 points of damage to kill them, needing you to (at low level when you're fighting those sorts of enemies) at minimum be two-handing your weapon (for 1d10+3 damage with a longsword or similar weapon). At which point, yeah you might kill them if you're going all out with your sword like that. Or you could punch them and have no risk of killing the bandit.[/QUOTE] What does adding the chance of doing it add to the gameplay in anyway? It's punishing someone for rolling well on damage. It's like sniggering and saying because someone rolled a nat 20 on an intimidation check the person had a heart attack that you were trying to question.