D&D V6 - Edition jokes don't really make sense anymore - Games

[QUOTE=Rats808;51371342]Today in Shadowrun: Elowin blows up the party, then punches out an Insect Shaman, then convinces the infiltrator to give him money to buy another rocket for next time he wants to blow something up.[/QUOTE] Hey it was a really big roach okay, it was the only (easy) way.

[QUOTE=elowin;51370724]Massive damage only applies to PCs in the first place, this entire discussion came from someone houseruling it to apply to NPCs.[/QUOTE] As far as I can tell it doesn't say that NPCs can't die from massive damage. It says that most DMs have monsters die as soon as they reach 0 hit points without rolling death saves and important characters or villains can be made to roll death saves as normal, but it doesn't say that they can't be killed by massive damage like a player can. It's perhaps more relevant in a situation like that too since killing an enemy instantly means they can't be gotten up with a healing spell or something similar.

[QUOTE=Glent;51371441]As far as I can tell it doesn't say that NPCs can't die from massive damage. It says that most DMs have monsters die as soon as they reach 0 hit points without rolling death saves and important characters or villains can be made to roll death saves as normal, but it doesn't say that they can't be killed by massive damage like a player can. It's perhaps more relevant in a situation like that too since killing an enemy instantly means they can't be gotten up with a healing spell or something similar.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][B]Knocking a Creature Out.[/B] When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable.[/QUOTE] 5e PHB, 198 I'm going to agree with Elowin on this. Massive Damage isn't meant to apply to NPC's, it's in the PHB not the DMG and only describes PC's.

[QUOTE=plunger435;51371537]5e PHB, 198 I'm going to agree with Elowin on this. Massive Damage isn't meant to apply to NPC's, it's in the PHB not the DMG and only describes PC's.[/QUOTE] Instant Death is in the same section as Critical Hits (Damage and Healing) and both of which use "you" terminology but it would be absurd to think that monsters can't score crits.

[QUOTE=Glent;51371564]Instant Death is in the same section as Critical Hits (Damage and Healing) and both of which use "you" terminology but it would be absurd to think that monsters can't score crits.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][B]Instant Death.[/B] Massive damage can kill [B]you[/B] instantly. When damage reduces [B]you[/B] to 0 hit points and there is damage remaining, [B]you[/B] die if the remaining damage equals or exceeds [B]your[/B] hit point maximum.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE][B]Knocking a Creature Out.[/B] When an attacker reduces a [B]creature[/B] to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the [B]creature[/B] out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The[B] creature[/B] falls unconscious and is stable.[/QUOTE] One very clearly refers to the PC and the other very clearly refers to NPC. There's no reason to take away player agency, especially when it's not even a rule.' Not to mention Knocking a Creature Out trumps Instant Death anyways since as soon as they hit 0HP I say they're knocked out and it ignores the other billion damage I might have potentially done.

[QUOTE=plunger435;51371588]One very clearly refers to the PC and the other very clearly refers to NPC. There's no reason to take away player agency, especially when it's not even a rule.[/QUOTE] Like I said: Critical Hits say "When [B]you[/B] score a critical hit, [B]you[/B] get to roll extra die for the attack's damage against the target..." This wording doesn't mean it's making any distinction. As an aside, "creature" refers to any kind of character in 5e. Hit Points says "A [B]creature's[/B] current hit points can be any number from the [B]creature's[/B] hit point maximum down to 0," but again it would be absurd to think that players don't use hit points. Nothing about knocking a creature out says you ignore excess damage. The target can be unconscious and stable and then die from massive damage.

[QUOTE=Glent;51371597]Like I said: Critical Hits say "When [B]you[/B] score a critical hit, [B]you[/B] get to roll extra die for the attack's damage against the target..." This wording doesn't mean it's making any distinction. As an aside, "creature" refers to any kind of character in 5e. Hit Points says "A [B]creature's[/B] current hit points can be any number from the [B]creature's[/B] hit point maximum down to 0," but again it would be absurd to think that players don't use hit points. Nothing about knocking a creature out says you ignore excess damage. [B]The target can be unconscious and stable and then die from massive damage.[/B][/QUOTE] Critical are listed for monsters in MM and DMG, Hit Points are listed for players at the start of the PHB. Those two are only ever talked about in that context. And like I said. [QUOTE]Not to mention Knocking a Creature Out trumps Instant Death anyways since as soon as they hit 0HP I say they're knocked out and it ignores the other billion damage I might have potentially done.[/QUOTE] It's a non-issue since as soon as you say he's knocked out there is no excess damage. You're also confusing this with Massive Damage which is an entirely separate rule from the DMG.

[QUOTE=plunger435;51371617]Critical are listed for monsters in MM and DMG, Hit Points are listed for players at the start of the PHB. Those two are only ever talked about in that context. And like I said[/QUOTE] Temporary Hit points use "creature" but can affect players. Healing uses "creature" but can affect players. Cover uses "creature" but can affect players. Damage rolls use "you" but monsters certainly do it. The distinction is purely arbitrary and holds no rules value. Nothing about knocking a creature out says you ignore excess damage. The target can be unconscious and stable and then die from massive damage.

[QUOTE=Glent;51371625]Temporary Hit points use "creature" but can affect players. Healing uses "creature" but can affect players. Cover uses "creature" but can affect players. Damage rolls use "you" but monsters certainly do it. The distinction is purely arbitrary and holds no rules value. Nothing about knocking a creature out says you ignore excess damage. [B]The target can be unconscious and stable and then die from massive damage.[/B][/QUOTE] Massive Damage has literally nothing to do with this unless your DM is using that rule, and even then none of the roll results can kill you, just knock you out.

[QUOTE=plunger435;51371638]Massive Damage has literally nothing to do with this unless your DM is using that rule, and even then none of the roll results can kill you, just knock you out.[/QUOTE] I never mentioned the Massive Damage rule. I was referring to massive damage from the Instant Death rule.

How about instead of breaking out the rulebooks and arguing over whether or not a player can choose to not kill someone even if they do 10000000 damage, we just agree that a player saying "I want to take him down, non-lethally" means they don't die, because removing player agency/punishing your players for rolling well is literally cancer to tabletop games.

[QUOTE=Rats808;51372249]How about instead of breaking out the rulebooks and arguing over whether or not a player can choose to not kill someone even if they do 10000000 damage, we just agree that a player saying "I want to take him down, non-lethally" means they don't die, because removing player agency/punishing your players for rolling well is literally cancer to tabletop games.[/QUOTE] This entirely. Players should only really lose control of a situation when they roll poorly. Telling a player that by doing something in the best possible way they could do it, actually causes them to do it in the exact opposite way they wanted is a great way to make your players think you're just playing to screw them over.

I could see it working well if you're just playing a 'hahaha lets fuck shit up and laugh about everything that happens' game, and nothing is being taken seriously, but if the players have actually invested any time at all into the characters and the story of the game, they probably aren't going to appreciate their nat 20 intimidate roll to interrogate a guard making the guard have a heart attack and die before giving up any information.

[QUOTE=Rats808;51372461]I could see it working well if you're just playing a 'hahaha lets fuck shit up and laugh about everything that happens' game, and nothing is being taken seriously, but if the players have actually invested any time at all into the characters and the story of the game, they probably aren't going to appreciate their nat 20 intimidate roll to interrogate a guard making the guard have a heart attack and die before giving up any information.[/QUOTE] One time my party got kicked out of a town that was actually quite important to us because, in our attempts to knock out a popular figure who was under some bad juju, ended up critting him real dang hard and killing him despite our best intentions. Our group wasn't very popular after that, so I can definitely relate.

I think it's an important distinction to make between the D20 being a measure of success for the intended goal and just dealing more damage. There's a fine line between unintended consequences and it coming across like the DM just doesn't want it to happen. Saying, I throw the guy as hard can across the room, that seems fairer for a natural 20 (depending on how you play) causing shenanigans because the desired goal was to throw the guy as hard as I could. But saying, I want to knock the character unconscious, a natural 20 killing the guy doesn't seem right.

[QUOTE=Ogopogo;51372629]I think it's an important distinction to make between the D20 being a measure of success for the intended goal and just dealing more damage. There's a fine line between unintended consequences and it coming across like the DM just doesn't want it to happen. Saying, I throw the guy as hard can across the room, that seems fairer for a natural 20 (depending on how you play) causing shenanigans because the desired goal was to throw the guy as hard as I could. But saying, I want to knock the character unconscious, a natural 20 killing the guy doesn't seem right.[/QUOTE] The way I see it, the dice roll isn't really a measure of your overall effectiveness, but how effectively you were able to perform what you intended. So a 20 means "you did exactly what you wanted to", and a 1 means "you totally fucked up and killed him/missed him/whatever". EDIT: I am now realizing I'm repeating exactly what you said, but slightly worse. I basically rolled a 12.

to add to og's point, I'd say the only time you might cause an unwanted death would be a crit [i]fail[/i], but even that I'd say should be up to some smart discretion. Maybe if they want to interrogate the dude but fail on the smack, they knock him out so hard that he's down for several hours, maybe requires medical attention to prevent him from dying (wasting one of the party's healing spells or whatever), which results in the party having to drag him somewhere to hide, or otherwise figure out how to handle the situation while they're in a hostile or public space where they could be discovered. Use it to create an impromptu situation, add some adventure to your adventure and still let the party progress

Like I said, if it disrupts the flow of the game then the DM isn't going to bother with the overkill rule when you're trying to knock someone out. It's more relevant when you're fighting important villains since instant death can prevent them from being healed up when they're downed.

Ultimately, the instant death rule isn't really meant to apply to non-PC characters. Besides which, all that you are doing when you are making that roll work against the player is removing player agency, punishing the player for rolling well, and turning a critical success into a critical failure.

man this has got to be one of the dumbest arguments in the history of this thread so how about those alignments huh, they're pretty great. chaotic neutral is the best in the world

Lawful good is definitely the best alignment, by far.

the d&d thread: where multiple people argue about a topic in several systems at the same time whilst rarely actually mentioning what system they're arguing about

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;51374757]the d&d thread: where multiple people argue about a topic in several systems at the same time whilst rarely actually mentioning what system they're arguing about[/QUOTE] People can't refute your points if they don't know what you're talking about

[QUOTE=Nerts;51374763]People can't refute your points if they don't know what you're talking about[/QUOTE] That's not what it says on page 83

It's all 5th edition D&D, also [QUOTE=Nerts;51374730]Lawful good is definitely the best alignment, by far.[/QUOTE] HELL NAW

[QUOTE=Nerts;51374730]Lawful good is definitely the best alignment, by far.[/QUOTE] More like most boring. lawful evil is the alignment we deserve.

[QUOTE=Mellowbloom;51374782]That's not what it says on page 83[/QUOTE] That got errata'd in the second edition bestiary nerd!

[QUOTE=thisguy123;51374938]That got errata'd in the second edition bestiary nerd![/QUOTE] I just asked the guy who did the back cover art on twitter and he said that's a misprint

chaotic or bust

Liking chaotic alignment is a [I]phase[/I]. You'll hopefully get through it.