[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;52498348]
My step mom has been actually pretty rude to me about it, dad doesn't seem to give much of a shit either. Though I'd expect them to not be happy as she said "I looked at that game you're working on and I know for a fact it wont go anywhere. Go get a job at a liquor store."
Sorry for going off on a tangent, just feels nice n stuff.[/QUOTE]
Considering you have hit 160% funding 4 days in I'd say thats a pretty good start? All you can really do is try harder to prove em hugely wrong I guess.
The pressure is on now though since people are putting money down and at this point expectations are being developed for the game. The problem with the other failures of a lot of other similar games isn't necessarily that they are lazy cash grabs I think, I do believe that with a lot of them the developers might have put in a ton of work and wanted to make a great game but I think they bit off more than they could chew and weren't capable of producing something that meets the expectations.
Good luck I guess though, the game seems to be getting a lot of free publicity and will likely be very divisive with a lot of people saying it'll just be another hyped up cash-in failure in the genre so I guess its just whether or not you can prove em wrong. There are a few small janky things you notice immediately in the Kickstarter video but graphically it looks really nice which is a good start.
Oh damn, you guys already hit your funding goal? That's awesome! I hope you're able to craft something great.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52500877]Oh damn, you guys already hit your funding goal? That's awesome! I hope you're able to craft something great.[/QUOTE]
Thanks!
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;52498537]There will be soldier zombie variations.[/QUOTE]
Imo, this amounts to little more than window-dressing. Left 4 Dead, State of Decay, Dead Rising and Dying Light have it right - zombie types with widely varied capabilities and characteristics that made combat interesting, challenging, and throwing the unexpected at you - with "Soldier zombie" and "Hazmat zombie" being smaller variations on the generic ones. Eg. L4D's hazmats being immune to fire, Construction workers being immune to pipe-bombs, clowns which led groups around, the mudmen, riot cop and survivor zombies - add all that on top of something like the special infected or SoD's Freaks, and you've got combat with real depth. I'd look at Project Zomboid as the example to avoid in this regard - as good as that game's mechanics are (and this is sounding like it shares a lot of PZ's strengths), once you've established a base of some kind and have a gun and plenty of ammo, the challenge is rendered nil.
Speaking of which, if guns are going to play a big part, please god make aiming mechanics difficult (If you've played ArmA 3, imagine permanently low stamina - maybe an experience mechanic?) on top of scarce ammo, so if you're bad (or inexperienced/both), you can still easily fuck up with all the ammo in the world at your disposal.
I was playing a fair bit of NMRiH, the guns of which are well-animated, look & sound nice, and are overall satisfying to use, but for as long as you have ammo you might as well be invincible, they undermine the compulsion of combat because they negate the challenge. I'd be happier if it were a lot harder to actually aim the things, so ammo could be a little less scarce, but using it is then more of a gamble.
The case goes from "I have 10 shotgun shells and 10 zombies between me and where I need to go. Easy", than "I have 20 shotgun shells and there are 10 zombies between me and where I need to go. If I miss even half my shots I'm fucked, and the rest need to be to the head". Not that NMRiH often gives you other such options, but you get the picture.
I've yet to play a zombie open world that is actually scary and makes me feel anxiety of the apocalypse. Maybe this can provide.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;52500510]The newer Battlefield games' movement systems have some flaws but they're extremely far from clunky. Most of the issues are caused by complex the terrain geometry interacting in unexpected ways with the characters (sometimes exacerbated by the destruction system). Considering the set of unique challenges that the movement system faces I think DICE has done a great job over the years.[/QUOTE]
Not to belittle the challenges of creating a game as in-depth as Battlefield or anything, but as a consumer who isn't buying a product in Early Access or contributing anything to the game pre-release, those challenges shouldn't be a concern of mine. You say that most of the issues are caused by complex terrain and destruction, great, that wouldn't be an issue if complex terrain and destruction wasn't everywhere all over every level.
If you can't make one system work well with another, why add both and proceed to leave it broken for the next two games you develop over the next five years?
Aside from my love of close-quarters chaos, the blocky complication-free geometry is a great motivator for me to play Operation Metro all the time, and even then I'm not gonna say the movement feels very similar to DOOM or any other arena shooter.
[QUOTE=Morbo!!!;52501169]Imo, this amounts to little more than window-dressing. Left 4 Dead, State of Decay, Dead Rising and Dying Light have it right - zombie types with widely varied capabilities and characteristics that made combat interesting, challenging, and throwing the unexpected at you - with "Soldier zombie" and "Hazmat zombie" being smaller variations on the generic ones. Eg. L4D's hazmats being immune to fire, Construction workers being immune to pipe-bombs, clowns which led groups around, the mudmen, riot cop and survivor zombies - add all that on top of something like the special infected or SoD's Freaks, and you've got combat with real depth. I'd look at Project Zomboid as the example to avoid in this regard - as good as that game's mechanics are (and this is sounding like it shares a lot of PZ's strengths), once you've established a base of some kind and have a gun and plenty of ammo, the challenge is rendered nil.
Speaking of which, if guns are going to play a big part, please god make aiming mechanics difficult (If you've played ArmA 3, imagine permanently low stamina - maybe an experience mechanic?) on top of scarce ammo, so if you're bad (or inexperienced/both), you can still easily fuck up with all the ammo in the world at your disposal.
I was playing a fair bit of NMRiH, the guns of which are well-animated, look & sound nice, and are overall satisfying to use, but for as long as you have ammo you might as well be invincible, they undermine the compulsion of combat because they negate the challenge. I'd be happier if it were a lot harder to actually aim the things, so ammo could be a little less scarce, but using it is then more of a gamble.
The case goes from "I have 10 shotgun shells and 10 zombies between me and where I need to go. Easy", than "I have 20 shotgun shells and there are 10 zombies between me and where I need to go. If I miss even half my shots I'm fucked, and the rest need to be to the head". Not that NMRiH often gives you other such options, but you get the picture.[/QUOTE]
When I mention there will be soldier variations I didn't mean that they would simply just be soldier models and zero attention paid to them. I've made sure that we can easily tweak any variation of infected, adding stuff such as immunity to fire, etc is actually relatively easy for us.
We want to actually add variation beyond zombies in different outfits, we also feel that it could potentially be [B]very[/B] divisive if we don't reveal these properly hence why we've not talked much about them.
[editline]23rd July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=gk99;52501225]Aside from my love of close-quarters chaos, the blocky complication-free geometry is a great motivator for me to play Operation Metro all the time, and even then I'm not gonna say the movement feels very similar to DOOM or any other arena shooter.[/QUOTE]
My original comparison was I wanted to have combat that felt satisfying, DOOM has satisfying combat, especially due to the animations (glory kills are a good example) and how they blend with sound design.
I can sort of see how you got that confused because my wording isn't really the best but hey, that's life I guess.
[QUOTE=Holt!;52499176]I seriously hope this isn't another Dead Linger, I just want a decent open world zombie survival game that isn't state of decay.
Best of luck boys, looking forward to this.[/QUOTE]
Just the mention of Dead Linger makes my heart hurt.
Anyway, best of luck to you guys. I might follow this because i too have been wanting a decent sandbox zombie game.
I remember when you were talking about this waaaaay back, Johnny. Congratulations on making it happen! I'll be looking forward to the game's progress.
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;52501329]My original comparison was I wanted to have combat that felt satisfying, DOOM has satisfying combat, especially due to the animations (glory kills are a good example) and how they blend with sound design.
I can sort of see how you got that confused because my wording isn't really the best but hey, that's life I guess.[/QUOTE]
If combat is what you're talking about then I'm sure it's gonna be solid because both DOOM and BF combat are pretty top tier in that regard.
Looks promising, I'll be following this on steam.
Reminds me of the Crate Entertainment team of 10 that's working on Grim Dawn at the moment. A team of 5 developers is a little concerning but achievable, good luck out there.
I'll buy in, why not? Though I do have two questions.
1. How do melee weapons behave? Are we talking realistic swinging where you have to actually angle your swings, or Half Life crowbar?
2. You mention bringing back electricity and running water. Now electricity is perfectly manageable small scale. We do have generators and stuff, but how would the running water part work? I'm not the most knowledgeable on such infrastructure, but isn't transporting water without it getting mucky as fuck quite the undertaking?
[QUOTE=Abaddabadon;52502671]Looks promising, I'll be following this on steam.
Reminds me of the Crate Entertainment team of 10 that's working on Grim Dawn at the moment. A team of 5 developers is a little concerning but achievable, good luck out there.[/QUOTE]
We're sitting at 10 people and looking into recruiting more.
Looks interesting and I'd like to help but I can't atm because I need to save money. Maybe later on down the road when I got spare cash but right now I can't help :(
I wish you guys the best of luck though and I'll be keeping an eye on this. I've been looking for something that can be more PvE/Co-op oriented rather than "Loot>Kill Players>Die>Repeat". Zombies in these types of games have become more of a very small nuisance rather than an actual threat and I hope you guys can change that. There are only a few games that ever did the zombie survival co-op part right(and I'm talking shambler/Romero type zombies): Resident Evil Outbreak and Contagion being two examples of only a small selection.
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;52503026]We're sitting at 10 people and looking into recruiting more.[/QUOTE]
Oh 10 is even better. I read 5 from your kickstarter page. Updating that number could help boost confidence in potential backers.
Regarding gameplay what feel are you guys going for? I assume pseudo realism like dying light?
[QUOTE=Johnny Guitar;52501329]When I mention there will be soldier variations I didn't mean that they would simply just be soldier models and zero attention paid to them. I've made sure that we can easily tweak any variation of infected, adding stuff such as immunity to fire, etc is actually relatively easy for us.
We want to actually add variation beyond zombies in different outfits, we also feel that it could potentially be [B]very[/B] divisive if we don't reveal these properly hence why we've not talked much about them.
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't have thought they'd be no different - but I wouldn't imagine such overall minor variations alone would do much to vary the gameplay unless you exaggerate/gamify their characteristics, which is why I'm relieved you want to go further with that variety. Anyway, with soldier it'd be cool if their vests acted quasi-realistically - fully absorbs a hit or two, anything else going through does normal to severely reduced damage depending on calibre. I wouldn't know if making them immune to headshots (and damage from a given direction in general) would play in to it.
I also suggest crawlers, referencing the style of A3's Ryan's Zombies & Demons mod, where their limbs are bent backwards of shape. That shit's creepy.
[QUOTE=-Rusty-;52503049]
Zombies in these types of games have become more of a very small nuisance rather than an actual threat and I hope you guys can change that.[/QUOTE]
Rusty hits the nail on the head. I don't particularly care, but if the zombies are unchallenging, even with top-end gear and huge reserves of ammo, it becomes a case of "What's the point?". In my ideal zombie game, both the decision to engage (attracting more zombies by sound) and the engagement its self (missing shots, hitting armour for example - getting backed into corners) carrying an actual significant risk of exacerbating those consequences, beyond just plain running out of ammo - which in PZ is very easy to avoid if you concentrate on gathering those supplies, and by default your ammo efficiency is too close to 100%. After not too long you end up with enough ammo to clear entire blocks, and whatever else comes investigating so long as you play your cards right, ie firing from the opposite direction of the area you wish to secure. Honestly I don't really mind what mechanics you go with so long as they're compelling means, used to achieve challenging combat (ie no bullet-sponges). Your game is blowing up anyhow, I wish you luck.
How visceral are we expecting combat to be? Can we remove limbs from zombies in order to slow them down or prevent them from attacking? Can zombies crawl without legs or headbutt you without arms?
So what I'd love to see in the editor is, at the very least, the ability to (temporarily) have a ghost texture on the ground to build on. Or, even better, to be able to use Google Maps as a layout so you can recreate real areas like your home town with a little more ease.
The game looks cool, but it's competing in a tough market, but don't let that discourage you.
Going off what Rusty said, if you could go off a similar formula for danger as Cataclysm: Dark Days Ahead, then shit would be dangerous. Injuries, pain, blood loss, should slow you down. Zombies should not just be able to see you, but smell you if you're too close. They should be relentless, smashing through anything in their way to get to something of curiosity. Guns, explosions, car alarms, and fire should not just be a little nuisance/crescendo event like Left 4 Dead. It should be a near death sentence, a relentless swarm that will continue to rouse any wanderers in the area until the source of sound is eliminated.
I really like the panic that C:DDA instills. If you trigger a car alarm in a city, and don't immediately run and hide, you'll find yourself surrounded by a horde in moments. It's so dangerous that the safest way to loot early-game is at night, by breaking into back windows of houses on the outskirts of town. I want this to be [I]that[/I] dangerous.
[editline]25th July 2017[/editline]
Also, just how modifiable do you plan on making vehicles? Can I find a car, tear the panels off, rip out the engine and put in a V8 truck engine? Mounting weapons? Armor? That's another thing about C:DDA I'd love to see brought into a FPS. Discovering vehicles that have randomly damaged parts and fixing them up, or popping a tire in the middle of a zombie-infested area and frantically trying to repair it
I just saw an ad/promotion type deal for this game on facebook the video had like 25k comments and 3 million views. Gaming TV is the page that posted a video of the game.
hmm johnny guitar same guy behind spire ................................................
What's that supposed to mean?
I just want to pitch in on your kick-starter video. It looks like it's got a bunch of potential, but when you did the weapon showcase i noticed a startling lack of joke weapons.
There's really no tension and sense of progression in battling the undead with fully purposed weapons from the get go, it's something i've noticed lacking from almost every zombie survival game out there, you don't feel rewarded when you get a gun or a good weapon since you just craft a club from the start. Don't want to undermine the realistic depiction you're going for but it would be a shame not to have stuff like one-hit breaking potted plants, throwable cash registers and various household items, it just adds so much believability instead of running around with a machete the entire game.
I'm so intrigued about your visions for the game, just don't end up misunderstanding what a "realistic" zombie game actually is, having tacticool guns everywhere with deep gun customization just detracts from what a zombie apocalypse is, it's almost like a running theme in every zombie game out there to have silencers paired with every scope imaginable. The best setting for the apocalypse is through human interaction trying to downplay the death and gloom.
Silly stuff like finding unique decorations that aren't planted in every house become trophies of their own, something as meaningless as a poster for a fake band can become sentimental to the player because it ends up becoming a reminder of that scavenger hunt.
The worst part about survival games is you never feel like you found something nobody else has, upgrading your base with a set 1 - 5 levels scale is the worst offense you can do. I'd focus on making unique decorations that they'd actually want to bring back to their camps.
I've always wanted to see stuff like making it a pain for people to carry heavy stuff like a sofa back, forcing two players to work together making it way more special to the player. It ends up being their sofa, not just some prefab you build with an amount of textile.
It's your game, i don't usually write stuff like this to developers because i just feel like a prick sticking my fingers into other peoples creative work.
So i can't really say more than i'm looking forward to seeing what the future brings for you guys, if you actually want to be different and give people the survival experience they've been craving for years don't forget the human element in your zombie game.
now you've got some funding, try to remove yourself from the toxic environment you're in so you can concentrate better and work with others, they may be your parents but if they are a hindrance then it is no good
[QUOTE=Warborq;52517954] - [B]Suggestions[/B] -
It's your game, i don't usually write stuff like this to developers because i just feel like a prick sticking my fingers into other peoples creative work.
So i can't really say more than i'm looking forward to seeing what the future brings for you guys, if you actually want to be different and give people the survival experience they've been craving for years don't forget the human element in your zombie game.[/QUOTE]
Hm... I like the word "human element". As games increasingly prioritize convenience, it is a nice breather to step back and appreciate deliberate inconveniences.
[QUOTE=Anteep;52518061]now you've got some funding, try to remove yourself from the toxic environment you're in so you can concentrate better and work with others, they may be your parents but if they are a hindrance then it is no good[/QUOTE]
I'm not JohnnyGuitar, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying he has spent the last week moving out.
Good luck Johnny and the rest of the crew. People like you guys are extremely inspirational to me, and I wish you all the best when it comes to this project.
[QUOTE=Yadda;52519171]I'm not JohnnyGuitar, but I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying he has spent the last week moving out.[/QUOTE]
I didn't know hell could also be spelled as "IKEA"
[QUOTE=Warborq;52517954]I just want to pitch in on your kick-starter video. It looks like it's got a bunch of potential, but when you did the weapon showcase i noticed a startling lack of joke weapons.
There's really no tension and sense of progression in battling the undead with fully purposed weapons from the get go, it's something i've noticed lacking from almost every zombie survival game out there, you don't feel rewarded when you get a gun or a good weapon since you just craft a club from the start. Don't want to undermine the realistic depiction you're going for but it would be a shame not to have stuff like one-hit breaking potted plants, throwable cash registers and various household items, it just adds so much believability instead of running around with a machete the entire game.
I'm so intrigued about your visions for the game, just don't end up misunderstanding what a "realistic" zombie game actually is, having tacticool guns everywhere with deep gun customization just detracts from what a zombie apocalypse is, it's almost like a running theme in every zombie game out there to have silencers paired with every scope imaginable. [/QUOTE]
This is a double-edged sword. Guns exist, and especially in a US setting it makes sense for you to come across them. Most games get it wrong by those guns being unchallenging to use, especially against slow-moving targets. When in reality, with shitting yourself cause zombies and all that, you probably wouldn't be double-tapping motherfuckers like a navy seal. This is what I was getting at with my earlier post, guns just plain aren't fun to use in the vast majority of zombie games because they negate the challenge. Equally, you don't want to make them so difficult to use or have such drawbacks that using them is practically suicidal to the point you'd never put it to use. If I, the player, had to compensate for my [I]character[/I] shitting themself and/or being inept with firearms, it'd be a lot more compelling because there's more risk vs the same potential reward. Like I said, I wouldn't care exactly what form that'd take mechanically (eg cone-of-fire [pls no] or weapon sway) so long as guns =! not having to worry (ammo notwithstanding), so long as they don't necessarily mean winning every fight you use one in.
[QUOTE=Anteep;52518061]now you've got some funding, try to remove yourself from the toxic environment you're in so you can concentrate better and work with others, they may be your parents but if they are a hindrance then it is no good[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I talked about the kickstarter with my dad in front of my step mother and she got extremely upset stating "haven't you gotten enough?" after I told my dad what it was at. This is the same person who also refuses to congratulate me while making me call my step brother to congratulate him on getting into a performing group for theatre. My step brother is a very kind kid so I'm at least glad they treat him pretty well since he actually lives there.
My dad and step mom wanted me to move in once I had to move out from my grandmothers place since I moved into her house after my mother and my step dad got upset and fought a lot as well as our house being sold and me needing to take my cat somewhere. While I don't blame them for fighting because my dad and my step mom were making their lives hell. My mom is extremely emotionally expressive but it made it very difficult to get work done sometimes due to the atmosphere, not the tense one but just hearing them be upset or having my mom sleep in a different bed was hard to watch since I'm a gentle giant or something to that effect.
My mother actually paid two months of rent and all the deposits as well as some IKEA furniture because she wanted to help me out. She's actually been extremely supportive and I'm super grateful to have her in my life. Circumstances suck, I just had to vent a tiny bit. I'll be back on my computer and have more to show soon. Thanks guys.
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