[QUOTE=Zadrave;51854029]Yes, I too love only being able to play 2 characters out of 26[/QUOTE]
i know you're trying to be a shitter on purpose but people have been playing it for 16 years, so yeah i guess having fox in half of the games isn't an issue to them.
bunny hopping, explosive/rocket jumping, surf maps, player boosting, there are so many techniques in FPS alone that are the result of bugs/unintended gameplay
I was just using melee as an example of how bugs can change a comp scene. Overwatch rank shouldn't show how well you know how to use bugs. It should always be how well you are at the game using the intended abilities. Yes this includes adding bugs as intended features later down the line because those become part of the game.
[QUOTE=Zadrave;51854029]Yes, I too love only being able to play 2 characters out of 26
You can't tell me that's good game design because it's not[/QUOTE]
The bad characters would still be bad if you removed the bugs. You could also balance the game around the bugs. This is an entirely separate problem.
[QUOTE=MissingGlitch;51854046]I was just using melee as an example of how bugs can change a comp scene. Overwatch rank shouldn't show how well you know how to use bugs. It should always be how well you are at the game using the intended abilities. Yes this includes adding bugs as intended features later down the line because those become part of the game.[/QUOTE]
This isn't true in any fighting game either. There are tech lords who can do 50 hit FADC combos or do 100 multishines and they still get bodied because they can't land hits against good players in the first place.
[QUOTE=ashxu;51854043]
bunny hopping, explosive/rocket jumping, surf maps, player boosting, there are so many techniques in FPS alone that are the result of bugs/unintended gameplay[/QUOTE]
Doesn't mean Overwatch has to do the same. There have been plenty of games which have been ruined by unintended game mechanics (Chivalry or Mount&Blade multiplayer).
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51854067]Doesn't mean Overwatch has to do the same. There have been plenty of games which have been ruined by unintended game mechanics (Chivalry or Mount&Blade multiplayer).[/QUOTE]
the sombra change doesn't break her, she's already not good so giving her something cool for advanced players to use only makes her more viable. If a bug makes the game worse then sure fix it, but thinking unintended elements should be removed for the sake of it being unintended is naive and with this way of thinking the genre and gaming in general wouldn't have evolved this far
[QUOTE=ashxu;51854079]the sombra change doesn't break her, she's already not good so giving her something cool for advanced players to use only makes her more viable. If a bug makes the game worse then sure fix it, but thinking unintended elements should be removed for the sake of it being unintended is naive and with this way of thinking the genre and gaming in general wouldn't have evolved this far[/QUOTE]
Or you know, make it a mechanic instead of having it be a bug. Make her right click be a fakeout.
Doesn't have to be ~advanced player~ exclusive.
see, there's a difference between this genji bug, and, say, the stupid shit like reverse overhead/spinny slashing that broke chivalry.
if you're unfamiliar with chivalry, the basic gist of 'beyblades' was that there were exploits in the physics engine that allowed you to do wacky shit while slashing your sword, because you have more dynamic control over the movement of your character and your sword after it's been swung. you could also use an overhead attack to hit someone behind you and have it be nearly unparryable, due to wacky shit regarding the time at which the attack would actually cause 'damage'.
the thing is that these unintuitive mechanics aren't complete game breakers; the sombra blink and the genji launch don't ruin their characters' function. where beyblading spinny warriors break chivalry's flow and made its combat unfun, both the genji jump and sombra blink are exploits that have limited utility and take practice, careful timing, and mechanical skill to employ.
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51854067]Doesn't mean Overwatch has to do the same. There have been plenty of games which have been ruined by unintended game mechanics (Chivalry or Mount&Blade multiplayer).[/QUOTE]
Yes, but that's exactly the issue.
You have to step back and think [I]"Is this ruining the core gameplay?"[/I].
And in the cases of things like Genji's Triple Jump or Dash, it really wasn't.
It was opening up interesting new ways to play the character and use him.
Should it have been left as a bug? No. Should Blizzard have realized the opportunities for interesting gameplay that this bug opened, and then convert it to an actual mechanic, balanced a bit more around the game, rather than just wiping it out and telling everyone who used it that they're some irredeemable heathen?
Yes.
[QUOTE=Zadrave;51854083]Or you know, make it a mechanic instead of having it be a bug. Make her right click be a fakeout.
Doesn't have to be ~advanced player~ exclusive.[/QUOTE]
doesn't have to be as long as you can watch a 2 minute video, i'm sure even you can handle that mate :^)
the idea of antagonizing an "advanced player exclusive" is like some kind of anti-intellectualism applied to the concept of being skilled at games.
[QUOTE=shotgun334;51854101]the idea of antagonizing an "advanced player exclusive" is like some kind of antiintellectualism applied to the concept of being skilled at games.[/QUOTE]
shut up, throwing down the translocator at your feet is HARD and only for big tryhard nerds
The thing is at the moment there's nothing a low skill level player who's relatively new can't do that an advanced player can do, it'd make no sense for them to change that now.
[QUOTE=ashxu;51854079]the sombra change doesn't break her, she's already not good so giving her something cool for advanced players to use only makes her more viable. If a bug makes the game worse then sure fix it, but thinking unintended elements should be removed for the sake of it being unintended is naive and with this way of thinking the genre and gaming in general wouldn't have evolved this far[/QUOTE]
First of all, Overwatch is a game where heroes are very precisely designed in what they can or can't do. This is why they have difficulty levels after all. I would rather have a separate hero with decoy-like abilities, instead of bugs, which aren't mentioned anywhere and make players think that the game is broken.
Second of all, I doubt that unintended game mechanics in Overwatch will somehow evolve the genre. It doesn't even seem to be the goal of the developers. It also makes balancing more difficult, since you have to consider these additional, unintended mechanics when changing abilities or adding new ones.
[QUOTE=shotgun334;51854101]the idea of antagonizing an "advanced player exclusive" is like some kind of anti-intellectualism applied to the concept of being skilled at games.[/QUOTE]
[t]http://i.imgur.com/XxqRhkq.png[/t]
Remember, people had to push really hard to get a FOV slider
where did this weird movement of anti-skill show up? I've seen it in a variety of communities, especially regarding console gaming; what, exactly, generated this sudden movement of people who antagonize skilled gameplay or, even, the slightest application of real competitive spirit to a game? Furthermore, where did this absolutely fucking idiotic term 'tryhard' originate from?
On another note: when did this massive aversion to 'e-sports' appear? People seem to get touchy and sometimes really pissy when you talk about playin' vidya in a manner that has any serious competitive 'edge'.
Blizzard's seeming need to pander to absolutely every demographic of player, and those of the lowest skill as well, is so frustrating.
In my opinion it's the main thing holding this game back. There's absolutely no skill involved in this game when it comes to stuff like learning advanced mechanics and tactics, since there are none.
You pick up a hero for a while, play them, get used to each ability, movement, and aiming, and then you're done. You've already pretty much "mastered" it.
I could only imagine that the whole reason Blizzard wants to lower this game's skill ceiling so much, and make it so ridiculously accessible to everyone, is because of sales, but that's off-topic and I don't want to delve into that whole aspect right now.
on the subject of balancing bugs: remember that the vast majority of these 'unintended mechanics' have very limited real utility. when they begin to have extremely wide-ranging consequences (like bunny-hopping), that's when you have to actually do something about it-- whether that means just fixing it (TF2, awful TFC servers) or incorporating it into the game proper (Quake Live, not-fucking-horrible TFC).
[QUOTE=shotgun334;51854127]where did this weird movement of anti-skill show up? I've seen it in a variety of communities, especially regarding console gaming; what, exactly, generated this sudden movement of people who antagonize skilled gameplay or, even, the slightest application of real competitive spirit to a game? Furthermore, where did this absolutely fucking idiotic term 'tryhard' originate from?
On another note: when did this massive aversion to 'e-sports' appear? People seem to get touchy and sometimes really pissy when you talk about playin' vidya in a manner that has any serious competitive 'edge'.[/QUOTE]
its always been a thing, when you beat someone it's because you're real nice and they just suck. When you lose it's because they're abusing cheap tactics or at least you have a life.
[editline]22nd February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51854146]lol you're just going into shitpost territory now
instead of having it be an obscure bug, just fix the translocator and turn the bug into an actual ability, i liked zadrave's suggestion of it being an m2 fakeout, would also be way less clunky than exploiting the bugged translocator.
sadly that would mean that some people can't gloat about being ''advanced'' anymore though.[/QUOTE]
i already said if they want to turn this bug into a real mechanic then go for it, so maybe you should go read the thread.
[QUOTE=ashxu;51852642][B][I]if they actually made it apart of her kit then sure, do that[/I][/B]
i'm just saying that it's dumb to remove something solely because it's not intuitive. It's no secret that in CS:GO for example how you're meant to drag your sights down to aim properly but the game doesn't tell you about it at all, you need to figure it out through outside means or figure it out yourself. Same with dota.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51854146]lol you're just going into shitpost territory now
instead of having it be an obscure bug, just fix the translocator and turn the bug into an actual ability, i liked zadrave's suggestion of it being an m2 fakeout, would also be way less clunky than exploiting the bugged translocator.
sadly that would mean that some people can't gloat about being ''advanced'' anymore though.[/QUOTE]
the intent of that is that it takes a difficult maneuver with an in-built skill floor and limited usage into an easy maneuver with exponentially less effort and makes it much more widely applicable, which changes it from 'niche tactic' into 'massive meta-effecting thing'.
it's like taking rocket jumping and making it into pharah's boost.
[QUOTE=shotgun334;51854127]where did this weird movement of anti-skill show up? I've seen it in a variety of communities, especially regarding console gaming; what, exactly, generated this sudden movement of people who antagonize skilled gameplay or, even, the slightest application of real competitive spirit to a game? Furthermore, where did this absolutely fucking idiotic term 'tryhard' originate from?
On another note: when did this massive aversion to 'e-sports' appear? People seem to get touchy and sometimes really pissy when you talk about playin' vidya in a manner that has any serious competitive 'edge'.[/QUOTE]
What are you even talking about? Just because some people don't want unintended game mechanics doesn't mean that the game has to be less skillful.
[QUOTE=The Civ;51854138]In my opinion it's the main thing holding this game back. There's absolutely no skill involved in this game when it comes to stuff like learning advanced mechanics and tactics, since there are none.
You pick up a hero for a while, play them, get used to each ability, movement, and aiming, and then you're done. You've already pretty much "mastered" it.[/QUOTE]
That's just not true. If absolutely no skill is involved, every player would play optimally, which is clearly not the case. Just knowing a hero well is also not "mastering" it. There's no arbitrary skill ceiling where someone suddenly has "maximum skill" for a certain hero, each hero has a different skill curve. Some are easier, some are harder, but they still take skill in the form of game knowledge, countering, map knowledge, management, timing and so on and so forth.
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51854172]What are you even talking about? Just because some people don't want unintended game mechanics doesn't mean that the game has to be less skillful.
[/QUOTE]
It's not referring to this argument in particular, but that statement is calling towards a greater trend that is reflected in the design decisions of Overwatch (regarding its skill floors and ceilings), and the attitudes of its community, like the groups of people-- much larger than they were, say, back in 2001-- who seem to try their hardest to embody that 'ITZ JUST A GAME!!!" stereotype that's been hashed out four billion fucking times in that tic-tac-toe comic.
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51854192]yea, a post from 9 hours ago when i was already busy in the next few posts talking about riptire and how useless it is, pretty easy to skip over something that is irrelevant at the time, this discussion only flared up about an hour ago.
still, the post i quoted was straight up shitposting so i wasnt really wrong there.[/QUOTE]
i mean it's pretty annoying getting deflected as being a tryhard when you just think people finding cool tech is a good thing rather than creativity being stamped out by "this wasnt what we intended". This tech isn't really that hard to pull off either.
[QUOTE=shotgun334;51854180]It's not referring to this argument in particular, but that statement is calling towards a greater trend that is reflected in the design decisions of Overwatch (regarding its skill floors and ceilings), and the attitudes of its community, like the groups of people-- much larger than they were, say, back in 2001-- who seem to try their hardest to embody that 'ITZ JUST A GAME!!!" stereotype that's been hashed out four billion fucking times in that tic-tac-toe comic.[/QUOTE]
Is that really true, though? You still got popular and difficult games like Dark Souls, and the "It's just a game"-attitude also partly stems from overly competitive players, who make playing seem more like work than having fun. Yes, there are also those who ruin the game for others by trolling, but those really are the minority.
It's true however that Overwatch tries to be a game for a wide audience, which is why the heroes are as diverse as they are, e.g. some require more aiming, some don't. Doesn't mean that the game or its design is bad in that regard, it just might not be for everyone.
[QUOTE=Jarokwa;51854192]
the thing is that it isnt at all difficult? rocket jumping in any game isnt difficult either, if anything its just a bit tedious at most.
i would rather have massive meta-affecting things than some niche tactics, by making things an actual ability you make them less clunky, less tedious and more reliable.[/QUOTE]
"just a bit tedious at most"
That's an interesting statement, because it seems to determine, to me, that we are fundamentally different people. Furthermore, while there's a point to streamlining a game, it also inherently removes some of its skill cap. There's no better example of this than looking at the contrast between League and DotA. DotA's mechanics are unintuitive, and sometimes extremely obtuse-- to the point where I teeter-totter in and out of actually playing it-- but, at the same time, the trimming that League did makes it an easier game that has a lot less mechanical depth than its competitor.
Replacing more difficult mechanics with more reliable, lower-floor ones does streamline the game, but at the same time, it reduces the number of possibilities. For me, the problem is that Blizzard can't really decide what it wants; it seems to cast, with one hand, actions that direct the game towards a simplified path, and with the other, the idea of trying to make Overwatch a competitive e-sport, which are-- at least, to me-- not particularly compatible ideals.
[editline]21st February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoOneKnowsMe;51854221]Is that really true, though? You still got popular and difficult games like Dark Souls, and the "It's just a game"-attitude also partly stems from overly competitive players, who make playing seem more like work than having fun. Yes, there are also those who ruin the game for others by trolling, but those really are the minority.
It's true however that Overwatch tries to be a game for a wide audience, which is why the heroes are as diverse as they are, e.g. some require more aiming, some don't. Doesn't mean that the game or its design is bad in that regard, it just might not be for everyone.[/QUOTE]
The problem is that it is trying to be for everyone, instead of actually locking down what it wants and sticking to a balance and design philosophy.
What Overwatch is trying to do generates mediocrity, which is, to me, much worse-- and much more 'insidious'-- than simply being bad at one thing. Spreading yourself too thin, demographically, takes a good concept and good ideas and gradually converts them into an unplayable mess of different things struggling against each other to function properly, as well as an extremely conflicted balancing strategy, which already compounds Blizzard's existing issues with properly designing competitive experiences.
[QUOTE=ashxu;51854043]i know you're trying to be a shitter on purpose but people have been playing it for 16 years, so yeah i guess having fox in half of the games isn't an issue to them.
bunny hopping, explosive/rocket jumping, surf maps, player boosting, there are so many techniques in FPS alone that are the result of bugs/unintended gameplay[/QUOTE]
There's a tiny little core of really dedicated competitive players who play it to this day because of those unintended mechanics.
These unintended mechanics meanwhile actively diminish the game for the vast majority of people who have not and/or do not want to teach themselves to use some strange, unintuitive mechanic that doesn't really make any sense.
[QUOTE=ashxu;51854208]i mean it's pretty annoying getting deflected as being a tryhard when you just think people finding cool tech is a good thing rather than creativity being stamped out by "this wasnt what we intended". This tech isn't really that hard to pull off either.[/QUOTE]
It's nothing about being hard to pull off, it's that it's incredibly nonsensical and nearly impossible to read properly.
No one tells you about TF2's rocket jumping or CS:GO's recoil, but it's not difficult to read or particularly obscure. You can see your bullets going above your crosshair in CS and compensate for it to some degree without memorising patterns. You can see the pattern repeat as you keep playing and shoot at a wall to see an approximation. It doesn't make perfect sense, but it's not unintuitive once you see it, and the entire game follows the same core logic. Rocket jumping is obtuse and pretty much impossible to learn properly without reading about it, but the game still leaves hints that there's something going on and it's obvious you can propel yourself with explosives SOMEHOW once you see someone do it. Heck, airstrafing in source is both obtuse and weird, but it's at least consistent and has proper feedback. All of these also add tons of depth to make up for whatever game design sacrifice they make.
This translocator bug is frankly just silly. It's a hidden tech for a single ability of a single hero. It doesn't have a shred of logic behind it because it's only there because of shitty programming. You can't tell what happened when you do it by accident, or why it happened. The feedback you and the enemy gets is contradictory, and there's very indication that you become invulnerable during it. There's also zero explanation how you were able to do it to an enemy or why it happened, and it doesn't mesh with the rest of the game's logic in any way.
The reason people are "deflecting you as a tryhard" is because you've entirely missed the above and react as if the only reason people want it removed is because they're casuals incapable of having depth in games or using their brain to think. Those parts seemed really elitist and out of place, regardless of the underlying meaning behind your posts. I don't even know where it came from, considering no one really argued that games should be streamlined and no inspiration taken from bugs or anything
[url]https://playoverwatch.com/en-gb/blog/20580087[/url]
[quote]I'd like to start off by congratulating you, Efi. This is a tremendous, well-deserved honor. How do you feel?
Amazing! I wasn't expecting it at all, so it was a big surprise. At first, I thought it was a joke—like one of my friends playing a trick on me. It's been a week now and it still doesn't seem real, but I'm very happy about it. Much better than winning the science fair.
How did you get into robots and artificial intelligence?
Well, I've always been interested. After my mom and dad got me my first robotics kit, I became obsessed with putting together little drones. When I started to get good at it, I tried to build robots to do my chores and help around the house. My parents think it's cheating… It's no fair! (laughs)
I want to create things that make our lives better. And someday, my dream is to build something that can keep us safe, like the new OR15s! I think that would be great.
It's amazing what you've been able to accomplish at your age! How do you do it?
I'm not sure how to answer that. I just do it! I guess I'm very lucky that my parents put up with it. Robots can be messy, you know. And expensive.
Speaking of which, do you have any plans for what you're going to do with your grant? New computer? College tuition?
Oh… I have an idea…
No hint?
It's a secret for now… but my parents are taking me on a trip to celebrate! It'll be my first time flying, so I can't wait.[/quote]
If he's not next, Blizz, STOP TEASING HIM
[QUOTE=Steel & Iron;51854848][url]https://playoverwatch.com/en-gb/blog/20580087[/url]
If he's not next, Blizz, STOP TEASING HIM[/QUOTE]
Don't these news reports normally mean some type of announcement is coming soon?
i cant believe doomfist is fucking eleven
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Overwatch - Ask me about my D.Va fetish
