Kinda weird that they still haven't fixed some of the glaring issues with stealth already, honestly. I replayed Shadow Raid OD recently for the story line, and the guard in the starting alley is nothing but a big middle finger. There's absolutely no difficulty in bypassing him, his only purpose seems to be to waste time and frustrate players. Sometimes he'll be standing facing the alley entrance for what feels like minutes, then he'll finally start walking away... and stop right by the dock stairs and stare at a wall for another minute... before going back to the starting position.
If you didn't get thermal paste, which I couldn't do because of a recently added achievement, have fun spending literally a majority of the heist waiting for this one guy to move while you're hauling bags back to the van. All they have to do to fix it is to either make it so he won't stop at that pre-stair spot, decrease the time he'll spend standing in one place (this goes for every single guard in this game, no exceptions) or (preferably) remove him entirely as he provides no challenge. Yet there he is four years later.
just shoot him.
this is coming from someone who avoids shooting guards at all costs under the principle of having pagers for when I mess up, rather than quality of stealth life. that guard is definitely just there to make things more difficult for the sake of it. shadow raid on higher difficulties is sort of a 2 pager limit, if you go for the cameras.
I hope we eventually get Steal from the Rich as an in game track with a chance for lyrics like Break the Rules.
No One Lives Forever also has something like that.
I can't guarantee that the next patch is going to be it, just that the devs recently spent some time collecting bug reports in an organized fashion. I can't disclose my sources on that one, sorry.
https://i.imgur.com/K05esVt.png
Tech tree is empty. Rogue perk deck, suit. Not concealment or silencer based.
I sure am glad we added Raid to the thread
I haven't even been following it and apperantly they're doing teases for a new update?
When did they hit Update 19
There doing a multi day update, first day added a throwable coin to lure guards in stealth, this day shows off a new raid with randomized time and weather, can be during day or night, with fog or rain.
Their stats seem to not show many people actually playing Raid anymore though
I guess i gotta applaud their dedication
Yeah Payday 2 got a year extension in development because how how much Raid flopped.
I wish Raid was better, but it was literally just a worse Payday 2.
Payday 2 should get the the proper FoV meter and the coin from Raid and Raid should get content from Payday 2 reskinned to fit World War 2. Everybody wins.
I hope Overkill doesn't get pressured hard to make Payday 3 so they can make another gold mine.
I mean only up to a point. There were a lot of nice little improvements for Raid like how some aspects of stealth were handled and how they actually solved some engine problems. And things like the characters actually having frequent dialogue throughout the missions and conversations with each other and talking about their circumstances more was great.
But the atrociously designed progression system made it all worthless. For leveling up kills or objectives or loot didn't matter. There were only two, maybe three tiers of experience that could be rewarded and sometimes short and easy missions rewarded more than harder and longer ones. But they gave pitiful experience that made progression and miserable grind. And not just that but you had to do this several times because every class had to be created as a separate character and leveled up separately. So the progression was just slow and repetitive in the worst of ways. And for weapons it you had to grind out hundreds or thousands of kills, most of them under bizarre circumstances to upgrade your weapons. Want to make your sniper rifle better? Get hundreds of headshots at distances that are hard to reach on most maps so there are rarely any targets to even hit. Unlocked a new sniper rifle? Do it again! New weapon added to the game you want to use? Well its a high level weapon for a class you have no progression on. Better get ready to spend dozens of hours explicitly grinding just to unlock that weapon for that one class. And hey, while you're leveling up get ready to pick a bunch of utterly meaningless skills that provide negligible benefits to the player and under most circumstances they won't notice at all. And if you want to change them you have to spend currency that don't get from competing most missions, only a select few might help you earn a single one. But its going to take several to reset your skills. And hey, want to create an alternate build so you can quickly swap between skill sets? Nah, have to level up that character completely separately. It doesn't share progress, no, its entirely individualized.
The entire design of the progression system is so bizarre and stupid, like they haven't learned anything from the last ten years or more of similar systems. I have no idea what they were thinking with any of it. There's no reward or prize for doing anything in the game, and trying to get to something rewarding is just a miserable and unpleasant experience. Its not some dumb, "Ohh the struggle/challenges makes it sweeter/more rewarding!" bullshit. No, the struggle makes it less interesting and undesirable.
And Hitman. Blood Money had it and Hitman 2016 had it too.
I remember cheesing a elusive target by throwing a coin into an electrified puddle after unscrewing a nearby extension cord, he went to go pick it up and got fried.
Sniper Elite had throwable rocks.
Payday 2 has by far the LEAST interactive and engaging guards out of any game I have ever played. Pager system only makes it even more frustrating.
If PD2 were to have a throwable coin, it should either have a limited supply, or a single guard can only be alerted 3 or 4 times before being alerted.
Blood Money had infinite coins I think, Hitman 2016 had a limited supply, but you could pick coins back up.
RAID is...complicated. Many, many design decisions appeared to consist of:
"Why on earth doesn't Payday 2 do X? We'll do X in RAID"
followed shortly by
"oh, oh no, that's why".
RAID also suffered, and suffers, from a ton of bugs, even compared to payday. The root issue, though, is that it's a product that effectively competes with Payday 2, while Payday 2 continues to receive content updates. Given its many bugs, design issues, and heavy conceptual overlap, there's little reason for people to play it. The devs can't match payday 2's several years of bundled content with a much smaller, jankier, worse-designed product, despite a number of very intriguing decisions. Too much about it doesn't work- although I do find the ongoing efforts to dig out of the hole they're in promising.
Raid felt and looked like a amateur total conversion. There were attempts at cool things integrated terribly.
It also runs like a trashfire on my computer
This is why the Diesel engine should've been rewritten, a lot. Remember the HPL1 engine Frictional Games used for the Penumbra games? They didn't just update the existing one and called it HPL2, they actually rewrote the game engine. If only PAYDAY 2 could have waited a little longer before PAYDAY: The Heist stopped being popular.
They did make "Diesel 2.0" for PD2.
Eh the programming itself should be easy to lure guards. They DO already get lured to noises from drills, broken cameras, and certain distraction interactions like the hand dryer in framingth frame day 1 or the forklifts in shadow raid.
And again fuck the pager system. As mentioned in Metal Gear and Hitman, HQ won't give a fuck about dead guards unless A: The guard was mid-conversation when killed or had his radio destroyed.
or B: The guard was expected to give a sitrep or report in periodically and misses a status report.
Both cases are made painfully obvious to the player. Guards with radios often have backpacks with antennas sticking out and the handset you can shoot out strapped to their shoulder with a blinking red light.
If they suspect something and report in they're going to check it, on higher alertness levels HQ will say to call back or they want a SITREP afterwards. If power is cut or a camera destroyed, HQ will request a nearby soldier to check it, and it's not super vague like Payday where there's a brief noise coming from their headset, but an actual "We lost a camera feed. Someone go check it out." "This is Charlie-43. I will investigate." "Report back ASAP." conversation so you know exactly which guard is going to check.
Enemies who report in periodically bring up their radio and do the check-in. You know EXACTLY which guard you have to avoid taking out, and if you do, you want to time it so he's killed or KO'd right after he finishes a status report so you get the extra time.
Paydays pager system just sucks ass. If you had unlimited pagers I'd be fine with the random patrols. I'd be fine with the pager limit if patrols were pre-set. (Maybe the pattern would be randomized but it'd stay that way from the start of the heist to the end.)
Having BOTH limited pagers, and often getting caught because of the random unpredictable patrols just unfun.
I know Payday isn't marketed as a stealth game but if you're going to include stealth at least make it fun. I love stealth games and I find it EXTREMELY frustrating with how unpredictable the enemies patrol and the psychic pager guy. .
Also supposedly guards have footsteps but I've never heard them even with my volume up. That also makes it frustrating.
I'm not ashamed to admit that at a certain point fairly recently I found a mod that changes the pager system (I was running through Story mode and got frustrated with certain Stealth heists). By default if a guard is entirely unalert and you stealth kill them, no pager at all. But if they've gone to alert and you kill them you get a pager, and the mod defaults to cutting the allowed pagers back to two. And it doesn't touch any other part so cameras, lasers, and so on all still work as they did. And on some levels this is still a bitch because they keep spawning guards. Framing Frames Day 3 is made more manageable, but that level literally never stops spawning guards so you have to make sure you don't break anything in the apartment and hide all bodies, because otherwise one of the reinforcements will notice and go to alert. The first time I ran it I made the mistake of just killing the reinforcement in the stairwell thinking I could get away with it, only to have another guard show up while I was busy and I had to scramble back to kill him, get his pager, and then had to deal with more guards at regular intervals because I couldn't move the bodies.
So enemies respawn? Lame as hell. I thought dead guards stay dead (Although on certain heists more spawn if enough are killed. The Investigator either leaves and comes back on a loop, or leaves and stays gone)
I think on FireStarter day 2 FBI agents or guards used to appear from elevators petty much instantly and infinitely as soon as you kill one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMtX_MG9Voo
I like how VR actually makes stealth more "Fun" and manageable. You can answer pagers while still shooting a guard who walks in on you, you can even hide in places you normally can't by going prone or ducking behind crates and cubicles etc. which gives you much more hiding spots in rooms. You can also peek around corners without being exposed.
Also shows more issues with stealth, how was he in LOS of the guard at 0:05 as he had his back almost completely turned. Even at 0:10 he's closer to almost 180 degrees behind him and is still somehow being detected, and he was the host too.
Or at 0:26 when a civ walks up stairs BACKWARDS. I hate that shit! I don't know if they do it everytime on that staircase but it feels unfair to have a stealth run blown because the AI pulled a fast one.
They only respawn on the heists that guards normally would respawn on. It doesn't introduce new respawns or change that system at all. But being able to actually get rid of the guards makes it a lot more apparent when they do
I like this idea someone had to have a stealth tree and a loud tree you can allocate points in, and you swap between them when the alarm trips.
Currently 99.9% of stealth builds are completely useless in loud so if you get caught, you just restart.
WIth the change you would be able to just swap to loud with little hassle. Maybe for Payday 3. They'd have to add a ton of stealth skills and reworks, (More gadgets, footstep noise, silent shoes, different distraction items, a way to interact with pagers aside from ECM if we keep pagers, a skill that lets you pickpocket guards for money or keycards, etc.) so you'd have alot of options to choose from.
Just another sign that PAYDAY 2 should've waited until around 2014 or so... or 2015. As for the guards or civs walking backwards up the stairs, Full Speed Swarm sort-of does away with it because it slows them down to reasonable speeds (or so I think.) in order to ensure their position is precise or so...
with this speak of wonky guard AI in stealth, there's a newish bug on murky station (dunno when it started, but it definitely wasn't around before) where guards near the closest train to the right at spawn just walk inside of the train cart. nothin you can do about it.
This kinda reminds me of the Brass Ball cops on The Diamond Heist. How they'll just scale the outside of the damn skyscraper to go up one floor.
bug fix update is here
I wouldn't call them having Brass Balls, but rather "insane". They used a tactic that was crazy enough to work.
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PAYDAY 2/RAID v12: Locke Your Doors
