Wow that thread is still around ? Funny to see it was bumped from pretty much 6 months ago and people still debate about this.
I've read pretty much all of you guys' answers and I like how this thread has went.
[QUOTE=BCell;36368366]If there is no religion, is there a point to life?[/QUOTE]
If religion is the only think keeping someone from being a nihilist, they have bigger problems than God.
[QUOTE=Lankist;36467474]If religion is the only think keeping someone from being a nihilist, they have bigger problems than God.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you got his point.
If I read his post right what he means is that religion brings us an answer to what lays after life - it gives a point to life because we know it's only a path to something bigger, and that it mostly serves the purpose of establishing whether or not we are worthy of this bigger thing (it's the entire point of the christian concepts of Hell and Heaven). If there is no religion then there is no certitude on what awaits after death, thus there is no point to life as a whole, apart from living and dying and doing stuff inbetween.
So essentially his point is that religion just gives a point to our life. He didn't imply that without religion there would be no point to life, he just asked what would be the point of life if we did not have religion.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;36467577]I don't think you got his point.
If I read his post right what he means is that religion brings us an answer to what lays after life - it gives a point to life because we know it's only a path to something bigger, and that it mostly serves the purpose of establishing whether or not we are worthy of this bigger thing (it's the entire point of the christian concepts of Hell and Heaven). If there is no religion then there is no certitude on what awaits after death, thus there is no point to life as a whole, apart from living and dying and doing stuff inbetween.
So essentially his point is that religion just gives a point to our life. He didn't imply that without religion there would be no point to life, he just asked what would be the point of life if we did not have religion.[/QUOTE]
I was commenting on that one line, not challenging his point.
It's called an aside.
Assuming life has no meaning is just as bad as assuming it does. Any type of assumption is wrong; why believe when you can know?
[QUOTE=Audio-Surfer;36473568]Any type of assumption is wrong[/QUOTE]
This has got to be the most ridiculous point in the history of the universe.
Just a thought, but if someone actually talked to God/A "divine" entity and they told you about it would you believe them?
[QUOTE=Nat114;36542684]Just a thought, but if someone actually talked to God/A "divine" entity and they told you about it would you believe them?[/QUOTE]
Most certainly not.
Religion is created by someone(smarter) to control others(dumber).
Imagine you're an early human, before the invention of spoken language. Every day when you wake up, it's a struggle to survive. Find food, water. Avoid dangerous animals and plants. Perhaps most important, guard against the other humans, because they are the ones most likely to harm you. Of course, all of this is going on inside your head in some vague agglomeration of feeling. Abstract words haven't been attached to meaning yet. In short, every day was a chaotic struggle. But at night, when the sky was clear, you would look up and see the stars, and the Milky Way. A perfect assortment of bright dots that returned every night without fail, in the exact same spots as the last night, and the night before (excepting the planets of course). In the context of such a chaotic existence, I would be surprised if such reliability and intangible mystery could go without an attribution of magic.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;33720999]So they can then call me a bad person for not believing their religion and further try to shove it down our throats when things need to be done.
Ok.[/QUOTE]
You act like the only people who shove their beliefs down people's throats are theists. More than often, atheists actually shove their beliefs down people's throats. Religion is so laid back nowadays, most theists don't try to force their beliefs on you at all. Atheists, on the other hand, pull their 'science is cool' bullshit and try to force their beliefs down the theist's throats.
This is why I like being agnostic. I pretty much can't say 'lol ur wrong im rite' all the time.
Almost all modern religions are based off of ancient Egyptian mythology, ancient Egyptian mythology is based on the stars, all religion is based off of looking up to the stars.
To give some examples, Virgo, the Latin word for virgin; Virgin Mary.
In Christianity, the sun is represented by Jesus
[IMG]http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com/j/Zodiac.jpg[/IMG]
If you look at this zodiac map, you will notice that the sun is in the center, on a cross.
All religion is based off of astronomy, watch Zeitgeist (at least the first part, the rest is 9/11 and that's irrelevant to this thread)
I could go farther into this, but I'm sure you guys get the point.
The two most powerful influences on man are love and fear. The latter being the more prominent. Throughout history we can find that time and time again humans have lived with fear, a natural instinct we experience in order for us to ensure our survival. If we look even deeper we will find that the one fear that has consistently plagued the human species is the fear of the unknown. I would go as far to say that it is the most influential, preventing normal people from exploring the world and fueling the fire for so many hate-filled bigots who are simply afraid of the very same people they hate.
Life is made up of two things: the physical biology of living organisms and the interactions between those organisms and the world around them. Yet interaction with life can only be achieved by first understanding it. (You wouldn't fly a plane before first understanding how to fly a plane.) So, in order for humans to understand their lives, they conjure up gods to explain why the sun rises and the tide comes and goes. They conjure up a false explanation simply to try to understand their lives.
[QUOTE=deaded38;36604952]You act like the only people who shove their beliefs down people's throats are theists. More than often, atheists actually shove their beliefs down people's throats. Religion is so laid back nowadays, most theists don't try to force their beliefs on you at all. Atheists, on the other hand, pull their 'science is cool' bullshit and try to force their beliefs down the theist's throats.
This is why I like being agnostic. I pretty much can't say 'lol ur wrong im rite' all the time.[/QUOTE]
Yes, most theists don't try to force their beliefs on you. Neither do most atheists, as a matter of fact. Generalization works both ways. I'm beginning to really hate the "force beliefs down throats" phrase since the only time that seems to apply is when certain theists try to make laws based in religion.
Also, what is the distinction between an atheist and an agnostic for you? Wasn't it already established that most atheists are agnostic regarding their atheism?
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;36619051]Yes, most theists don't try to force their beliefs on you. Neither do most atheists, as a matter of fact. Generalization works both ways. I'm beginning to really hate the "force beliefs down throats" phrase since the only time that seems to apply is when certain theists try to make laws based in religion.
Also, what is the distinction between an atheist and an agnostic for you? Wasn't it already established that most atheists are agnostic regarding their atheism?[/QUOTE]
You must not live in America.
All agnostics are atheists.
An atheist is someone who simply lacks a belief in a god.
1) If you are agnostic you believe that a god is possible, but you don't believe in one.
2) You lack a belief in a god.
3) That means you are atheist.
Honestly, I believe people who call themselves agnostic are just afraid to accept the fact that their atheist. Maybe they want to hold themselves up to some higher standard than the rest of us.
[QUOTE=JJ Isaac;36619331]You must not live in America.
All agnostics are atheists.
An atheist is someone who simply lacks a belief in a god.
1) If you are agnostic you believe that a god is possible, but you don't believe in one.
2) You lack a belief in a god.
3) That means you are atheist.
Honestly, I believe people who call themselves agnostic are just afraid to accept the fact that their atheist. Maybe they want to hold themselves up to some higher standard than the rest of us.[/QUOTE]
My point is that even in America, theists who force their religion on others are the vocal minority.
And I'm pretty sure agnostic is a descriptive term, so agnostic theists can exist.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;36620094]My point is that even in America, theists who force their religion on others are the vocal minority.
And I'm pretty sure agnostic is a descriptive term, so agnostic theists can exist.[/QUOTE]
Once again. You must not live in the same America I do. Come down to the good ol' bible belt and see how it is down here. It's not pretty.
And no.
Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
Atheist: a person who lacks a belief in a god.
If you are agnostic. You are atheist. There is no other way of looking at it.
[QUOTE=JJ Isaac;36620156]Once again. You must not live in the same America I do. Come down to the good ol' bible belt and see how it is down here. It's not pretty.
And no.
Agnostic: a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.
Atheist: a person who lacks a belief in a god.
If you are agnostic. You are atheist. There is no other way of looking at it.[/QUOTE]
It might be bad in the Bible Belt, but theists exist outside of America. You can't say that the majority of them force their religion on others in the way that places in the Bible Belt does.
The world agnostic can be used to describe the belief that the truth or falsehood of a proposition to be unknowable, so wouldn't an agnostic theist be someone who believes in God but knows he can't be sure of it?
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism[/url]
-snip- goddamn i need new eyes.
The whole atheism/agnosticism semantics argument is a lot more prevalent than you'd think. Off the top of my head, Carl Sagan, Michio Kaku, and Neil deGrasse Tyson all said that they were agnostics even though its pretty clear none of them hold any belief in a god.
Agnostic isn't really a stance on it's own, but alongside gnostic it's used as a way to describe how far one leans to atheism or theism e.g. a gnostic theist knows God exists, while an agnostic theist doesn't [I]know[/I] but is inclined to lean towards that direction. It's sort of like a verbal grayscale component.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;36620826]Agnostic isn't really a stance on it's own, but alongside gnostic it's used as a way to describe how far one leans to atheism or theism e.g. a gnostic theist knows God exists, while an agnostic theist doesn't [I]know[/I] but is inclined to lean towards that direction. It's sort of like a verbal grayscale component.[/QUOTE]
I know, but I'm guessing there are way too many people who think atheism is absolute conviction that there is no god, leading to people claiming they are agnostics when in fact most actual atheists fit their definition of agnostic.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;36620896]I know, but I'm guessing there are way too many people who think atheism is absolute conviction that there is no god, leading to people claiming they are agnostics when in fact most actual atheists fit their definition of agnostic.[/QUOTE]
No atheist I have ever known has claimed themselves to have believed that there was no god. Even the militant Richard Dawkins even states that it is possible, albeit very unlikely.
I am sorry. If you are agnostic, you are atheist. I can not really see another way around it. If you do not believe in a god, then you lack a belief, making you an atheist. If you are agnostic you do not believe in a god, also making you an atheist.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;36620826]Agnostic isn't really a stance on it's own, but alongside gnostic it's used as a way to describe how far one leans to atheism or theism e.g. a gnostic theist knows God exists, while an agnostic theist doesn't [I]know[/I] but is inclined to lean towards that direction. It's sort of like a verbal grayscale component.[/QUOTE]
gnosticism is the belief that there are two gods, one of the old testament and one of the new testament. Agnosticism is the state of believing a god may be possible but not being entirely sure what to believe.
[QUOTE=JJ Isaac;36622481]I am sorry. If you are agnostic, you are atheist. I can not really see another way around it. If you do not believe in a god, then you lack a belief, making you an atheist. If you are agnostic you do not believe in a god, also making you an atheist.[/QUOTE]
Agnosticism is not a lack of belief in a god, it's not being sure there is a god. You can still have faith in a god that may or may not exist, much like you can not have faith in a god you are sure exists (this makes more sense from a polytheistic approach).
An Agnostic Atheist believes in no gods, and is unsure that a god exists or knows no god exists.
An Gnostic Atheist is sure a god exists, but has no faith or belief in that god.
An Agnostic Theist is not sure if their god exists, but has faith and belief in them anyway.
An Gnostic Theist is sure a god exists, and has faith in them.
What's so hard to understand again that?
[QUOTE=hexpunK;36626475]Agnosticism is not a lack of belief in a god, it's not being sure there is a god. You can still have faith in a god that may or may not exist, much like you can not have faith in a god you are sure exists (this makes more sense from a polytheistic approach).
An Agnostic Atheist believes in no gods, and is unsure that a god exists or knows no god exists.
An Gnostic Atheist is sure a god exists, but has no faith or belief in that god.
An Agnostic Theist is not sure if their god exists, but has faith and belief in them anyway.
An Gnostic Theist is sure a god exists, and has faith in them.
What's so hard to understand again that?[/QUOTE]
I do not understand why we must separate the secular, free-thinking community into unnecessary groups. They divide all the people who don't even realize: they usually have the same exact ideas and philosophies! Back in American government, candidates would not wear the label of christian, no. They wore the label of their individual denominations such evangelical, catholic, and protestant. They all fought against each other, never once uniting. Eventually they realized that they might not have exactly the same views, but they were similar enough to realize that they were stronger... united as one singular christian phrase.
So we see now a much different conservative construct: the christian. They were united, stronger as one singular go-to term - their campaigns flourished!
We will find that most atheists, agnostics, etc, usually have similar, if not very close, philosophies and moralities.
I've always seen religion as a sort of "crutch" that certain people can lean on incase shit goes haywire.
A bit like how I would lean back and crutch on my hobbies if shit goes haywire in an attempt to forget the bad shit, they just can't lean back on themselves so they lean on something of higher power that they believe in.
[QUOTE=Heigou;36628173]I've always seen religion as a sort of "crutch" that certain people can lean on incase shit goes haywire.
A bit like how I would lean back and crutch on my hobbies if shit goes haywire in an attempt to forget the bad shit, they just can't lean back on themselves so they lean on something of higher power that they believe in.[/QUOTE]
And then they start murdering for it.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;36619051]Yes, most theists don't try to force their beliefs on you. Neither do most atheists, as a matter of fact. Generalization works both ways. I'm beginning to really hate the "force beliefs down throats" phrase since the only time that seems to apply is when certain theists try to make laws based in religion.
Also, what is the distinction between an atheist and an agnostic for you? Wasn't it already established that most atheists are agnostic regarding their atheism?[/QUOTE]
Well, just from looking around the Mass Debate section, I can safely say that a lot of atheists try to force their beliefs upon others. Whether they mean to or not is a different subject. Also, what the fuck? Do you seriously have to be that literal to the point where agnosticism doesn't mean I believe in the possibility of a god? Because last time I checked, that's exactly what it means to most people...
Edit: Also, according to what Hexpunk posted, I would be in the agnostic theist category. That's what I meant when I only said agnostic. Sorry for the confusion.
religion is the placeholder for things we don't know - there is no proof of an omnipotent being, and it is surely obvious that it doesn't take a scholar to write something like the bible
you take a book, ponder your story and begin to piss on it a bit, chew off the corner, then throw it into a cave for 150 years until someone finds it
engrave someones name like "jahoose landeeh" and you've got yourself a new religious basis that cannot be proven wrong
after all guys, based on the religious people - "sure we don't have proof, but this book says so!"
[B]DO YOU HAVE PROOF THAT IT [I]DOESN'T[/I] EXIST[/B] the logic is killing me
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