• Religion : why does it exist ?
    792 replies, posted
Let's just end it with this: Religion is like a penis, it's nice to have one, it's even better if it's big, but please don't go around saying your's is the best, flailing it around, and shoving down my child's throat.
because we r all human bengs and deservd to lived
[QUOTE=Moustacheman;36714355]Let's just end it with this: Religion is like a penis, it's nice to have one, it's even better if it's big, but please don't go around saying your's is the best, flailing it around, and shoving down my child's throat.[/QUOTE] Doesn't really make any sense but okay. To be honest, people in general have gone a bit too far with the debation about God.. Like if you wonder what God means to most people; to some God means nothing, to some God means their whole life (sometimes pointlessly even) and so on. So what does that mean? God is just another thing that interests people more or less. Surprisingly enough God is still a matter of high importance after 2000 years at least, while God is basically just an unimaginitive all-powerful creation of human mind who can swift through any place in the Universe as he pleases, plus he had a Son on Earth who shared the same fate of many. And you know what should be shoved down every child's throat? Good manners, good education, maybe even some religious stuff like respecting people or animals/life, knowing what's definitely right and wrong, et cet. Doesn't stray too far from having just common sense and a little bit of decency.
does anyone really think humans are going to prove whether god exists or not before we are wiped out by an asteroid or somehow made extinct, i don't see why people waste their time trying to disprove religion or somehow bring it down when it brings many people happiness and encourages a lot of good behaviour and treatment of human beings. you shouldn't belittle people for believing in something, as long as it doesn't harm others. when people start to use it as an excuse to spread violence obviously it becomes a problem. Also who the hell thinks that religion is going to be forced upon their child? thats the stupidest thing i've heard, if your child is capable of thinking for themselves they'll be able to decide what they believe despite outside 'inteference'. We should encourage people to challenge what they themselves are told, but not to assume they know what is best for everyone else.
I think religon's purpose is to give people faith because when they have lost everything or are in a bad state they don't want to blame themselves but rather a higher being.
I recommend reading the book Mitakuye Oyasin. It's a great read.
I wish I believed in god because then death wouldn't scare me as bad as it does.
This is a rather silly question. People believe in God because they believe that they have experienced Him. The idea that people are basing their entire lives off of hopes and dreams is, quite frankly, a rather immature and superior way to view others. People aren't stupid, they wouldn't base their lives around something that they did not have some sort of first-hand experience with.
[QUOTE=SaltyWaters;36803579]This is a rather silly question. People believe in God because they believe that they have experienced Him. The idea that people are basing their entire lives off of hopes and dreams is, quite frankly, a rather immature and superior way to view others. People aren't stupid, they wouldn't base their lives around something that they did not have some sort of first-hand experience with.[/QUOTE] Sorry but this isn't the way in which belief works. And people actually DO base their lives in hopes and dreams, even the ones that aren't religious. If you don't believe this just look at what people do, and the shitty things they deal with in their everyday lives just because they believe that 'tomorrow will be different', that 'this is just temporary' or other sort of stupid justification that people give for the shit they deal with on their lives.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36761021]Doesn't really make any sense but okay. To be honest, people in general have gone a bit too far with the debation about God.. Like if you wonder what God means to most people; to some God means nothing, to some God means their whole life (sometimes pointlessly even) and so on. So what does that mean? God is just another thing that interests people more or less. Surprisingly enough God is still a matter of high importance after 2000 years at least, while God is basically just an unimaginitive all-powerful creation of human mind who can swift through any place in the Universe as he pleases, plus he had a Son on Earth who shared the same fate of many. And you know what should be shoved down every child's throat? Good manners, good education, maybe even some religious stuff like respecting people or animals/life, knowing what's definitely right and wrong, et cet. Doesn't stray too far from having just common sense and a little bit of decency.[/QUOTE] Bloody hell, your smart. Even as a Christian, I've noticed people take the idea of God so far as to smash anyone just for being different. Everyone just needs to get along and shut up. And on an unrelated note, if you've ever read the bible, you'll notice that separation of Church and State is listed. As quoted by Jesus "Tap Dancing" Christ, "My kingdom is not of here."
Religion is one of the most important foundations for the progress of humanity. It helped provide humans an early explanation for the unknowns and it has helped civilizations and empires thrive and fall at the same time. It helped form modern political boundaries and it has it's influence on every single corner of the globe.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36761021]And you know what should be shoved down every child's throat? Good manners, good education, maybe even some religious stuff like respecting people or animals/life, knowing what's definitely right and wrong, et cet. Doesn't stray too far from having just common sense and a little bit of decency.[/QUOTE] You don't need religious beliefs to respect people and animals. It'd actually be worse that way. "I should respect people and animals so I'll go to heaven". That'd be forced, respecting people for greed. But all Atheists I know of respect both people and animals out of instinct and good manners.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36806104]You don't need religious beliefs to respect people and animals. It'd actually be worse that way. "I should respect people and animals so I'll go to heaven". That'd be forced, respecting people for greed. But all Atheists I know of respect both people and animals out of instinct and good manners.[/QUOTE] Wow, people do good to go to heaven is a greedy selfish act. What kind of pessimism do you suck off of? Not every follower of a religion do good deeds just to solely get to heaven.
[QUOTE=mlockha;36790351]I think religon's purpose is to give people faith because when they have lost everything or are in a bad state they don't want to blame themselves but rather a higher being.[/QUOTE] It's not really much about blaming someone else (in most modern religions if you start blaming your god then it means you have lost faith) and more about still having some kind of support, even if it's a very vague, unfounded one. Better walk through the desert talking alone than keeping quiet until someone shows up. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=sonerin;36806104]You don't need religious beliefs to respect people and animals. It'd actually be worse that way. "I should respect people and animals so I'll go to heaven". That'd be forced, respecting people for greed. But all Atheists I know of respect both people and animals out of instinct and good manners.[/QUOTE] But most of our values and manners come from Religion, since it was the very first establishment of any sort that established global rules for everyone. As a proof, see how differently two civilizations with two different religions treat relationships : in the Islam religion, having several wives is okay as long as you can live up to all of your wives' expectations and provide for all of them. In the Christian, having any more than a single wife is considered a sin, or even adultery. The base concept is essentially the same but the way it has evolved into general values is not the same, even the values that ended up existing for everyone were not the same. You can also see how much religion has shaped our culture. When someone sneezes, you say "god bless you", which is a phrase that not only would be different if religion had not existed, but would probably not exist at all if a religion wasn't there to make people in the dark ages believe that when you sneeze, it's your soul/a demon trying to leave your body and you need instant godly blessing to live after it. Same goes for yawning, if it wasn't for an old christianity-related superstition that when you yawned, you allowed demons to enter your body through your wide open mouth and had to cover it with your mouth to avoid this, the entire "cover your mouth when you yawn" thing would not even exist. Nowadays it has evolved into politeness, but back when the whole thing came around it was religious. And instinct is irrelevant when it comes to mutual respect. If anything our instinct would most likely tell us to kill animals on sight and be very wary of others, rather than respect them and not be paranoid.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;36806680]Wow, people do good to go to heaven is a greedy selfish act. What kind of pessimism do you suck off of? Not every follower of a religion do good deeds just to solely get to heaven.[/QUOTE] No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36806754]No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.[/QUOTE] The Heaven and Hell concept in and of itself is not a valid argument. The founders of the religions themselves declared Hell to be a temporary punishment. Even with that knowledge, people still do good acts. Religions don't just threaten punishments for not doing good, they provide a shitton of guidelines on how to live virtuous lives.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36806754]No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.[/QUOTE] Wrong. Buddhism relies entirely on the concept of reincarnation, which is a fairly similar concept but with important differences. For instance, when you die a good, modest individual, you don't get rewarded with another human life : you reach a higher plane of existence and become a plant or an animal, leaving any human related problems and all the corruption that comes with the human mind behind. If you are evil or careless, then you end up as a human being again, as a new chance. In the Buddhist religion, being selfish (even if you are being selfishly good) is not rewarded as it will only bring you back full circle : it's the action of giving away all you own and live in the simplest of all modesties with nothing more than your mind to think that grants you the ability to go further. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] Also Hell is not said to be a final punishment of everlasting pain in the Bible but more of a place where sinners go and burn in a giant (immortal) fire until they are cleansed and disappear from this world. The idea is that hell denies you afterlife, as your soul is burned and destroyed in a fire, while Heaven grants you proper afterlife with all the time you need to rest and meditate. Then it was changed by priests as "if you go to hell you'll suffer forever" because it was an easier to grasp concept and a better way to push people to follow them. Also saying Religious people wouldn't be good if hell & heaven did not exist is as wrong as saying Atheists are ruthless savages because they don't follow God's word.
religion was created in the absence of science to explain natural phenomena when we didn't have the capability of explaining things scientifically. agnosticism and atheism are two completely different things, in my opinion, but i think the definition varies from person to person. for me, an atheist is someone who adamantly believes there is no god. (thus, a-theist: not-theist. not a believer in gods.). an agnostic accepts the possibility of a deity (and, in my case, the probability that said deity would be nothing like organized religions envision it to be), but realizes it's impossible to prove or disprove its existence. [QUOTE=sonerin;36806754]No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.[/QUOTE] i think religion simply amplifies traits we already have. religion has been used as a cause for wars and discrimination, but at the same time it's driven many people to improve themselves and avoid harming others. to say that the religious would behave unethically if they didn't have a fear of hell driving them forward is essentially saying that all atheists commit bad deeds because they lack a similar motivation. religion narrows the perspective of its follower by guiding their ethics, but in the absence of religion we're completely capable as humans to understand what's acceptable and what isn't, and to feel good when we do good deeds and guilt when we cause harm.
[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;36806783] Even with that knowledge, people still do good acts. Religions don't just threaten punishments for not doing good, they provide a shitton of guidelines on how to live virtuous lives.[/QUOTE] Like ordering people to kill non-believers?
[QUOTE=sonerin;36806754]No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.[/QUOTE] but athiests dont have heaven or hell, does that make them bad? I don't see what you are getting at. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=sonerin;36807688]Like ordering people to kill non-believers?[/QUOTE] you can't pull stupid statements like that out of thin air without at the very least quoting a source from religious scripture or the like. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36806995]religion was created in the absence of science to explain natural phenomena when we didn't have the capability of explaining things scientifically. [/QUOTE] I don't think thats true at all. The bible for example is not a scientific textbook explaining the world, its a teaching on how to live a good life as a human being. Thats why it fails when you have a literal reading of say, genesis. It may have made sense for the more ancient religions and paganism to understand the science of the universe with ideas of gods and magic forces, but judeo-christian religions are rather unique in a sense.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36806754]No religious person would be good without the heaven & hell concept.[/QUOTE] I personally think as a religious concept it's pretty foolish. Why do people need fear driven in them in order to lead a happy life.
however, humans are naturally going to want an explanation of why things exist, and the idea of a creative force designing the universe is not totally implausible, which is why religion still thrived in a modern scientific world. How things work is not necesarily relevant to why things exist. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=AK'z;36808286]I personally think as a religious concept it's pretty foolish. Why do people need fear driven in them in order to lead a happy life.[/QUOTE] I think people need an idea that there is some kind of justice for this life. For example if someone leads a terrible life, killing and raping and stealing and not giving anything back, but he is happy his whole life and dies without an afterlife he seems to be rewarded for being bad, whereas if a very just and loving man leads a miserable life with no reward for his goodness, and he too dies without an afterlife then it would seem life is not just at all. This concept that life may not be fair is rather challenging for some people, but to be honest I don't think the idea of a hell really balances out crimes on earth, it seems like scaremongering and unjust in itself.
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808300]humans are naturally going to want an explanation of why things exist[/QUOTE] It's solely about what an individual believes, not really a population. I don't think this ideology that the world has become a group of "hive-minds" is believable. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808300] I think people need an idea that there is some kind of justice for this life. For example if someone leads a terrible life, killing and raping and stealing and not giving anything back, but he is happy his whole life and dies without an afterlife he seems to be rewarded for being bad, whereas if a very just and loving man leads a miserable life with no reward for his goodness, and he too dies without an afterlife then it would seem life is not just at all. This concept that life may not be fair is rather challenging for some people, but to be honest I don't think the idea of a hell really balances out crimes on earth, it seems like scaremongering and unjust in itself.[/QUOTE] They also believe that non-believers go to hell. It's a painfully poor concept imo. And when you're given as a child a vision of being burned forever, it's not easy to get it out of the system.
[QUOTE=AK'z;36808336]It's solely about what an individual believes, not really a population. I don't think this ideology that the world has become a group of "hive-minds" is believable.[/QUOTE] thats true, which is why I resent the idea that if a certain group or an idividual who is religious uses his religion to excuse horrible acts, that it brings down the religious ideal as a whole.
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808257]but athiests dont have heaven or hell, does that make them bad? I don't see what you are getting at.[/QUOTE] What I'm getting at is most Muslims and Christians wouldn't give a fuck about their religion if there wasn't a heaven & hell concept, they would easily do "bad" things too. [QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808257] you can't pull stupid statements like that out of thin air without at the very least quoting a source from religious scripture or the like. [/QUOTE] I have, many times, in this thread and in other threads too. I have proof, sorry.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36808351]What I'm getting at is most Muslims and Christians wouldn't give a fuck about their religion if there wasn't a heaven & hell concept, they would easily do "bad" things too. I have, many times, in this thread and in other threads too. I have proof, sorry.[/QUOTE] You still don't seem to elaborate on that heaven or hell point, if christians or muslims stop giving a fuck about their religion they are still the same people, just as likely to do wrong; is there such a difference between a man who has been an athiest his whole life and someone who has denounced their old religion. Religion does not force people to behave morally, people are capable of knowing what is right and wrong without religion, or are you implying athiesm = nihilism and anarchy.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36808351]What I'm getting at is most Muslims and Christians wouldn't give a fuck about their religion if there wasn't a heaven & hell concept, they would easily do "bad" things too. [/QUOTE] I don't really think heaven and hell are the heart of the religions though. They're just underlying concepts that aren't truly the basis of people's lives. You really think people worry about going to hell every second of their lives?
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808369]You still don't seem to elaborate on that heaven or hell point, if christians or muslims stop giving a fuck about their religion they are still the same people, just as likely to do wrong; is there such a difference between a man who has been an athiest his whole life and someone who has denounced their old religion. Religion does not force people to behave morally, people are capable of knowing what is right and wrong without religion, or are you implying athiesm = nihilism and anarchy.[/QUOTE] Religion doesn't force anyone to do anything, it commands you to do something. [QUOTE=AK'z;36808482]You really think people worry about going to hell every second of their lives?[/QUOTE] That's why Muslims pray and try to obey Qur'an.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36809716]Religion doesn't force anyone to do anything, it commands you to do something. That's why Muslims pray and try to obey Qur'an.[/QUOTE] Uh, no, sonerin, they pray the Qur'an because they were raised to believe that it's the correct religion and is true. I sure know if I believed in a God I'd fear him if he was anything like this. So, are you an atheist? Do you kill people? No? Then I'm going to go ahead and say that religious people would be decent with or without religion.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36807688]Like ordering people to kill non-believers?[/QUOTE] This would be relevant if Religion was the one and only reason people kill other people, while there has been mass murders for so many other reasons than religion. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808257]I don't think thats true at all. The bible for example is not a scientific textbook explaining the world, its a teaching on how to live a good life as a human being. Thats why it fails when you have a literal reading of say, genesis. It may have made sense for the more ancient religions and paganism to understand the science of the universe with ideas of gods and magic forces, but judeo-christian religions are rather unique in a sense.[/QUOTE] All religions are not based on the idea of explaining the (at the time) unexplainable, but there is still quite a lot that do. There is a reason why so many polytheistic religions associate deities to physical things like the sun, the moon, mountains and such : it allows them to explain why it exists, an why it behaves like that at some occasions. [editline]17th July 2012[/editline] And thinking of Hell and Heaven as a selfish concept is kind of missing the point. The idea is that we explain death by saying it's just a short transition between our mortal lives and something beyond, which is a central theme of virtually every existing religion in the world; and some religions, especially monotheistic ones, have said that there is some sort of upper reward for being good through your life. It may be a motivation for some people but for a lot of others it's just a passive goal that doesn't require you to do much other than not being an awful being. They also felt the need to explain another consequential question : what happens if you don't get this reward ? And the answer is, you disappear (once again keep in mind that originally Hell was supposed to cleanse sinning souls and remove them from existence, not torture them for all eternity).
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