[QUOTE=Zally13;36809745]Uh, no, sonerin, they pray the Qur'an because they were raised to believe that it's the correct religion and is true. I sure know if I believed in a God I'd fear him if he was anything like this.
So, are you an atheist? Do you kill people? No? Then I'm going to go ahead and say that religious people would be decent with or without religion.[/QUOTE]
They pray to Allah, Muslims don't pray to Qur'an. They obey Qur'an's orders, that is if the Muslim has ever read it. Because most of the Muslims didn't read Qur'an in their lives before.
And if a religious person believes in a violent religion and its violent orders, then no, sorry, he can't be decent.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;36810457]This would be relevant if Religion was the one and only reason people kill other people, while there has been mass murders for so many other reasons than religion.[/QUOTE]
So that makes it okay to give them another reason to kill people?
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36808257]I don't think thats true at all. The bible for example is not a scientific textbook explaining the world, its a teaching on how to live a good life as a human being. Thats why it fails when you have a literal reading of say, genesis. It may have made sense for the more ancient religions and paganism to understand the science of the universe with ideas of gods and magic forces, but judeo-christian religions are rather unique in a sense.[/QUOTE]
i'm only speaking for the origin of religion. the first forms of religion were pagan. christianity formed about 2000 years ago but the earliest forms of religion date back to as early as 3000 bc.
however, i think the purposes of both pagan and monotheistic religions are essentially the same - to explain the world and how we were created. however, there are definitive differences between the focuses of pagan and monotheistic religions. pagan religions assign different gods to different aspects of the world to explain their behavior. their worship consists entirely of carrying out rituals to appease these gods, and the actual feelings of the person carrying them out are completely irrelevant to the religion. monotheistic religions focus on an individual's actions throughout their life, and - more importantly - their actual feelings toward their god, and whether they truly believe in what they're doing.
[editline]17th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=AK'z;36808286]I personally think as a religious concept it's pretty foolish. Why do people need fear driven in them in order to lead a happy life.[/QUOTE]
as much as i would like to have more faith in the human race, a lot of people need that kind of incentive to live good lives. most people have a functional moral compass but the fear of hell is just an extra step.
[editline]17th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=sonerin;36810751]And if a religious person believes in a violent religion and its violent orders, then no, sorry, he can't be decent.[/QUOTE]
and what "violent religion" are you referring to? no popular current religions suggest violence. acts of religious violence lie entirely in how the reader interprets the text.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36810761]
and what "violent religion" are you referring to? no popular current religions suggest violence. acts of religious violence lie entirely in how the reader interprets the text.[/QUOTE]
Islam. It commands you to kill anyone who doesn't convert into Islam. I posted the verses a few posts back, but you can Google them up ("violent verses in Qur'an"). But of course, 90% of the public don't even know about Islam's dark side thanks to the media's propaganda and lack of research desires in people.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36810761]
as much as i would like to have more faith in the human race, a lot of people need that kind of incentive to live good lives. most people have a functional moral compass but the fear of hell is just an extra step.
[/QUOTE]
That's what I said beforehand. But I just think the fear of hell is a poor example of a fear driven upbringing.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36810751]They pray to Allah, Muslims don't pray to Qur'an. They obey Qur'an's orders, that is if the Muslim has ever read it. Because most of the Muslims didn't read Qur'an in their lives before.
And if a religious person believes in a violent religion and its violent orders, then no, sorry, he can't be decent.
So that makes it okay to give them another reason to kill people?[/QUOTE]
But i'm pretty sure most muslims don't choose to be religious at all, they genuinely believe it is the one true religion, whether because they have been brought up in an islamic society or have studied it or have had first-hand spiritual experiences it is something they do not choose to believe, most of them would find it difficult to denounce it. You're basically assuming every muslim follows islam because he wants to find some kind of moral system he can exploit in order to kill people?
[editline]17th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=sonerin;36810916]Islam. It commands you to kill anyone who doesn't convert into Islam. I posted the verses a few posts back, but you can Google them up ("violent verses in Qur'an"). But of course, 90% of the public don't even know about Islam's dark side thanks to the media's propaganda and lack of research desires in people.[/QUOTE]
media propaganda? if anything the media makes islam look worse to the general public, you probably read the daily mail and think its a reliable source.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36810751]They pray to Allah, Muslims don't pray to Qur'an. They obey Qur'an's orders, that is if the Muslim has ever read it. Because most of the Muslims didn't read Qur'an in their lives before.
And if a religious person believes in a violent religion and its violent orders, then no, sorry, he can't be decent.
So that makes it okay to give them another reason to kill people?[/QUOTE]
You know exactly what I meant. They follow the Qur'an. I would like you to find a source where the majority of Muslims are out murdering Christians. Why would they wait for it to be a majority if their holy book says so?
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36811444]But i'm pretty sure most muslims don't choose to be religious at all, they genuinely believe it is the one true religion, whether because they have been brought up in an islamic society or have studied it or have had first-hand spiritual experiences it is something they do not choose to believe, most of them would find it difficult to denounce it. You're basically assuming every muslim follows islam because he wants to find some kind of moral system he can exploit in order to kill people?[/QUOTE]
What I am saying is Islam is violent, I don't care what the Muslims believe in or study. Muslims may be good, since most of them don't know about the dark side of the Islam. But what I'm saying here is Islam is
[QUOTE=CheeserCrice;36811444]media propaganda? if anything the media makes islam look worse to the general public, you probably read the daily mail and think its a reliable source.[/QUOTE]
Have you ever heard of the Zionist controlled media?
[QUOTE=Zally13;36811986]You know exactly what I meant. They follow the Qur'an. I would like you to find a source where the majority of Muslims are out murdering Christians. Why would they wait for it to be a majority if their holy book says so?[/QUOTE]
Because most Muslims call themselves Muslims before reading Qur'an. Conclusion, 80% of the Muslims don't even know the verses of Islam. They read a page or two and leave it.
edited out
[QUOTE=matsta;36804776]Sorry but this isn't the way in which belief works. And people actually DO base their lives in hopes and dreams, even the ones that aren't religious. If you don't believe this just look at what people do, and the shitty things they deal with in their everyday lives just because they believe that 'tomorrow will be different', that 'this is just temporary' or other sort of stupid justification that people give for the shit they deal with on their lives.[/QUOTE]
Keeping yourself leveled and optimistic during hard times isn't stupidity.
it's actually a scientific answer, Humans are a communal organism, it seems that evolution has given us the instinct to have a religion, as it brings people together. Just like bee's have a hive or ants have a nest etc. we have a religion. But due to our advanced intelligence we must break away from instinct, and realises that religion is merely a product of evolution. It has been scientifically proven to be an instinct, how else could hundreds of ancient civilisations, seperated by vast bodies of water have had a belief in some form of higher power?
[QUOTE=AK'z;36808286]I personally think as a religious concept it's pretty foolish. Why do people need fear driven in them in order to lead a happy life.[/QUOTE]
That is very foolish, living in fear that you might go to hell if you don't accomplish enough nice things during your life, while some people just simply live in fear (not necessarily the fear of hell) leading no happy lives at all.
It gives something to have faith in, explainations of our own existance, morals, the sheer sense that doing something you feel some kind of creator would value you for is righteous.
I am protestant. I believe there is something we could value as our creator, or atleast something with conciousness, a form somehow existing through nonthingness yet our universe simply beyond all senses by living organism or otherwise' comprehension.
The Bible and etcetera records (excluding the Quran) of 'holy' proportions are supposed tomes of simple moral lessons, values, and sublime events that are to aid whomever takes them to heart.
You know, it is pretty much a record telling us what not to do and what to do with society, I am truly grateful God kindly allowed these tomes to be written and remembered.
:)
[QUOTE=Jayhawker30;36816856]Keeping yourself leveled and optimistic during hard times isn't stupidity.[/QUOTE]
Ignoring things and inventing dreams because you want to keep yourself 'leveled and optimistic' is just fooling yourself into believing in a fabricated reality. That is what I'm talking about. People do this on a daily basis, even the ones that aren't religious.
[QUOTE=matsta;36817459]Ignoring things and inventing dreams because you want to keep yourself 'leveled and optimistic' is just fooling yourself into believing in a fabricated reality. That is what I'm talking about. People do this on a daily basis, even the ones that aren't religious.[/QUOTE]
Usually peoples who are religious but are blinded/crazy there and elsewhere aren't entirely that religious themselves...
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36817076]That is very foolish, living in fear that you might go to hell if you don't accomplish enough nice things during your life, while some people just simply live in fear (not necessarily the fear of hell) leading no happy lives at all.[/QUOTE]
That's not a defense. I don't think saying, "DO GOOD THINGS OR BURN" is a good way of life or a good image for kids.
Kids are a lot more confused with life so by confusing them even more with beliefs, you're bound to run into problems later in life.
Well I believe it was just a way to explain the unexplainable because science was not developed enough to explain these things but now we have good ideas as to what created the universe, Earth, etc. Also you don't need a book to tell you not to stab your neighbor and steal his shit.
Because it gave something for humans to live for, early on in our existence. When we ate anything we could get in our grubby little hands because we weren't sure when the next meal would be.
[QUOTE=AK'z;36818649]That's not a defense. I don't think saying, "DO GOOD THINGS OR BURN" is a good way of life or a good image for kids.
Kids are a lot more confused with life so by confusing them even more with beliefs, you're bound to run into problems later in life.[/QUOTE]
I didn't defend anything. You said it was foolish, I said it was foolish. It is foolish to live in fear of hell, but then again if you are "definitely going to hell" then you have probably done some bad things, which is not good. Going to prison is kind of like the closest thing to going to hell, but even that sounds foolish.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36810751]They pray to Allah, Muslims don't pray to Qur'an. They obey Qur'an's orders, that is if the Muslim has ever read it. Because most of the Muslims didn't read Qur'an in their lives before.
And if a religious person believes in a violent religion and its violent orders, then no, sorry, he can't be decent.
So that makes it okay to give them another reason to kill people?[/QUOTE]
So first of all, Islam is not a violent religion, you should at least inform yourself on the matter before proceeding to spit on it. The issue with Islam is that each Imam (the man who directs group prayers) gives his own interpretation of the book, and while some consider the Jihad to be a metaphorical war against the followers' own sins or even completely disregard it, others decide to make it their main point and order violence.
It's not the religion that's violent, it's a bunch of people who use it to be violent, just like there is a bunch of people in any other religion using it to be violent. So why do you think Islam is more violent than others ? Because the media keeps going on and on about how muslims are all misogynistic backwards middle age apes who only think about violence and power.
Then, about your second point, it's obviously not okay, but it can also be disregarded. You cannot numerically express the amount of reasons people kill each others, and it would be idiotic to try and remove those reasons one by one. If you are going to blame religion for the death of people in the name of god, then you may as well blame kitchen knives for the death of people too, and demand their ban from existence.
Your opinion is dangerously misinformed and you should really get some general knowledge on the matter before continuing to debate about it.
[editline]18th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=geoface;36817025]it's actually a scientific answer, Humans are a communal organism, it seems that evolution has given us the instinct to have a religion, as it brings people together. Just like bee's have a hive or ants have a nest etc. we have a religion. But due to our advanced intelligence we must break away from instinct, and realises that religion is merely a product of evolution. It has been scientifically proven to be an instinct, how else could hundreds of ancient civilisations, seperated by vast bodies of water have had a belief in some form of higher power?[/QUOTE]
That is a very good point. It's true that virtually every single civilization that has ever existed has always had some sort of leading deity that would represent its global culture.
But I'm unsure about whether we should/will get rid of religion in the evolution of civilization or not. As intelligent creatures, we have to get rid of our most basic instincts but religion is in gray area. Maybe it was created out of a need to unite people, but maybe we still need this basic, efficient way of doing so. As you said, hundreds of civilizations before ours have used the very same idea, so here's my question : if we had to get rid of it because we had evolved, then why none of those civilization has ever had a recorded history of getting rid of their religion and living without it ?
I think religion exists because of instinct but it should subsist because people still need it. If anything in a world where rape and discrimination still exists massively, I think we should focus more on the diminution of those two events rather than on religion.
[editline]18th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vintage Thatguy;36821809]Well I believe it was just a way to explain the unexplainable because science was not developed enough to explain these things but now we have good ideas as to what created the universe, Earth, etc. Also you don't need a book to tell you not to stab your neighbor and steal his shit.[/QUOTE]
Well back when it was written they did. Because today's society heavily reprimands such crimes and educate children to avoid doing those, doesn't mean it was always the case.
^ Talking about violence, a simple hunter-gatherer was 40 times as likely to get murdered and robbed back in the good old days. I don't have the specific data/source, but it was a scientific piece of read on the newspaper some time ago.
Also, if religion was just a way to explain the unexaplainable before the scientific-era, then how does knowing that we live on massive Earth-boulders, like moss on rocks in a space-area that is pretty much infinite in size, explain anything? It's just mind-boggling if anything.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;36822850]So first of all, Islam is not a violent religion, you should at least inform yourself on the matter before proceeding to spit on it. The issue with Islam is that each Imam (the man who directs group prayers) gives his own interpretation of the book, and while some consider the Jihad to be a metaphorical war against the followers' own sins or even completely disregard it, others decide to make it their main point and order violence.[/QUOTE]
Islam is violent, the verses support my accusation.
It's too obvious that you didn't read Qur'an in your life before, you'd see the violent "kill the non-muslims" and "all women are inferior" verses and such.
[QUOTE=matsta;36817459]Ignoring things and inventing dreams because you want to keep yourself 'leveled and optimistic' is just fooling yourself into believing in a fabricated reality. That is what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]
For some reason, I think of people invoking a lucid state of mind to cope with torture. Though that's a little bit more extreme than just daily life.
Ultimately, does it matter how people keep themselves moving forward? What should count is if they remain good people up until the end, regardless of how they perceive life.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36822792]I didn't defend anything. You said it was foolish, I said it was foolish. It is foolish to live in fear of hell, but then again if you are "definitely going to hell" then you have probably done some bad things, which is not good. Going to prison is kind of like the closest thing to going to hell, but even that sounds foolish.[/QUOTE]
I thought you were calling my statement foolish, nevermind. :)
[QUOTE=sonerin;36823449]Islam is violent, the verses support my accusation.
It's too obvious that you didn't read Qur'an in your life before, you'd see the violent "kill the non-muslims" and "all women are inferior" verses and such.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see those verses.
[editline]18th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36823009]^ Talking about violence, a simple hunter-gatherer was 40 times as likely to get murdered and robbed back in the good old days. I don't have the specific data/source, but it was a scientific piece of read on the newspaper some time ago.
Also, if religion was just a way to explain the unexaplainable before the scientific-era, then how does knowing that we live on massive Earth-boulders, like moss on rocks in a space-area that is pretty much infinite in size, explain anything? It's just mind-boggling if anything.[/QUOTE]
Well it's more about how the sun works, where we are in the world, how long is the planet gonna last, why the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, etc.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36810761]and what "violent religion" are you referring to? no popular current religions suggest violence. acts of religious violence lie entirely in how the reader interprets the text.[/QUOTE]
all judeo-christian religious texts overtly support violence. that is not debatable.
[editline]18th July 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;36824787]I'd like to see those verses.[/QUOTE]
wikipedia has a small article on it, barely even scrapes the surface
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quran_and_violence[/url]
[quote]
Because most Muslims call themselves Muslims before reading Qur'an. Conclusion, 80% of the Muslims don't even know the verses of Islam. They read a page or two and leave it.[/QUOTE]
Why do you assume this is the case?
[QUOTE=sonerin;36813004]What I am saying is Islam is violent, I don't care what the Muslims believe in or study. Muslims may be good, since most of them don't know about the dark side of the Islam. But what I'm saying here is Islam is [/quote]
People that say an entire religion is violent just because there are a few bad apples piss me off. A religious text might be able to JUSTIFY fucked up shit, but a lot of supposedly benign concepts can do the same: national pride, justice, human rights, etc. This doesn't mean that the entire religion is fucked.
[QUOTE=Neolk;36826550]Why do you assume this is the case?
People that say an entire religion is violent just because there are a few bad apples piss me off. A religious text might be able to JUSTIFY fucked up shit, but a lot of supposedly benign concepts can do the same: national pride, justice, human rights, etc. This doesn't mean that the entire religion is fucked.[/QUOTE]
if a religious text for condones and encourages violence and we see that being reflected in society, then that religion can be easily said to be violent. nobody says every single muslim or whatever is violent, but islam is no doubt a violent religion.
[QUOTE=Neolk;36826550]Why do you assume this is the case? [/QUOTE]
Because not knowing the violent side of the Quran/the dumbness and contradictions causes Muslism to stay Muslim. Most Muslim to Atheist converts have read Quran and then converted after realising Islam is a stack of shit.
[QUOTE=Neolk;36826550]People that say an entire religion is violent just because there are a few bad apples piss me off. A religious text might be able to JUSTIFY fucked up shit, but a lot of supposedly benign concepts can do the same: national pride, justice, human rights, etc. This doesn't mean that the entire religion is fucked.[/QUOTE]
Ordering people to kill people and then tossing in a few "peaceful" verses won't make the religion any better. If it has violent orders in it, that's it, the religion is violent. Islam is violent.
Religion exists as a way to give people hope and something to look forward to even when thier life it shit
I'll make this short; Religion gives people something to live for! Well.. In my opinion :)
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