• Religion : why does it exist ?
    792 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Absynth;36827541]Because not knowing the violent side of the Quran/the dumbness and contradictions causes Muslism to stay Muslim. Most Muslim to Atheist converts have read Quran and then converted after realising Islam is a stack of shit.[/QUOTE] the time periods the bible and qur'an were written in had completely different cultures than we do today. killing another person wasn't as big of a deal one or two thousand years ago as it is now. if you read the bible you'll find god slaughtering people left and right as well. the difference in time period is usually taken into account when reading religious texts today. religious leaders/teachers today do not condone violence. while the religious texts support these ideas, followers of these religions rely largely on modern influences for guidance in how a religious text should be interpreted today.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36835523]the time periods the bible and qur'an were written in had completely different cultures than we do today. killing another person wasn't as big of a deal one or two thousand years ago as it is now. if you read the bible you'll find god slaughtering people left and right as well. the difference in time period is usually taken into account when reading religious texts today. religious leaders/teachers today do not condone violence. while the religious texts support these ideas, followers of these religions rely largely on modern influences for guidance in how a religious text should be interpreted today.[/QUOTE] I could understand your point if the Muslims applied these commands only against the enemy warriors and such during wars in the past, but this is different. Muslims were ordered to kill all innocent non-muslims. Innocent or warrior, it didn't matter. They were the cause for that "it's no big deal to kill" in the past. If you take a look at the normal civilised kingdoms and such, people could live just as good we did now. Without dying for religious crap that is. This isn't about war or anything, Islam's roots are violent and discriminative. I can't bring Nazism up right now and claim it has changed and we no longer want the Jews to die, it's something like that.
[QUOTE=Absynth;36836187]I could understand your point if the Muslims applied these commands only against the enemy warriors and such during wars in the past, but this is different. Muslims were ordered to kill all innocent non-muslims. Innocent or warrior, it didn't matter. They were the cause for that "it's no big deal to kill" in the past. If you take a look at the normal civilised kingdoms and such, people could live just as good we did now. Without dying for religious crap that is. This isn't about war or anything, Islam's roots are violent and discriminative. I can't bring Nazism up right now and claim it has changed and we no longer want the Jews to die, it's something like that.[/QUOTE] in the 7th century, just after islam started becoming widespread, the pact of umar was written, which was a treaty of sorts regarding the rights of non-muslims in muslim countries. they were given mostly equal rights to muslims - for instance, they were allowed to participate in politics etc. the biggest limitations were that they were not allowed to openly express their religious beliefs or worship publicly, and they were not allowed to dress similar to muslims. in exchange, they were offered protection.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36836388]in the 7th century, just after islam started becoming widespread, the pact of umar was written, which was a treaty of sorts regarding the rights of non-muslims in muslim countries. they were given mostly equal rights to muslims - for instance, they were allowed to participate in politics etc. the biggest limitations were that they were not allowed to openly express their religious beliefs or worship publicly, and they were not allowed to dress similar to muslims. in exchange, they were offered protection.[/QUOTE] To be honest, I would rather judge Islam by Qur'an, not a pact that came afterwards. Islam still is violent, but Muslims may not be. I am not judging Muslims here, I'm just telling you that Islam is discriminative and violent.
a religion is not defined by its religious texts, it's defined by how people interpret it. compare it to grammar - the rules of grammar change based on how people use it. "correct" spellings of things or punctuation uses are based on what the majority does, not on set-in-stone rules.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36836968]a religion is not defined by its religious texts, it's defined by how people interpret it. compare it to grammar - the rules of grammar change based on how people use it. "correct" spellings of things or punctuation uses are based on what the majority does, not on set-in-stone rules.[/QUOTE] So why write the book? The religion is based on its religious book. I'm talking about Islam and Christianity that is, some religions don't have their holy books. And it is confirmed that the verses' meanings haven't changed, they remain the same. Quran says: "Kill non-muslims if they don't convert." and "Women are inferior to men." And Quran is Islam, Islam is violent and discriminative.
i can't speak for the quran as i've never read it, but the content of the old testament isn't meant to be taken literally. most of it is essentially a collection of stories that were originally passed on through word of mouth and written down by various authors (if you read genesis, for instance, you'll notice that there are two versions of the story of earth's creation and noah's ark that completely contradict each other: this indicates the story has been related by two different authors). while there's no way of finding out what their original intent was, it's quite likely that many of these stories were intended as allegory and not to be taken at face value. as such, there are tons of rules in the bible that have been swept under the rug, while the christian community instead opts to place emphasis on a select few. for instance, leviticus states that one should never mix wool and linen garments. this was possibly due to pagans wearing clothing made of these materials at the time. a rule like this would not be relevant in our current culture. while the main ideas behind a religion, such as the figure being worshiped and how worship is performed, will remain the same, many aspects of the religion will adjust over time to suit the current culture.
[QUOTE=Guy Mannly;36837205]i can't speak for the quran as i've never read it, but the content of the old testament isn't meant to be taken literally. most of it is essentially a collection of stories that were originally passed on through word of mouth and written down by various authors (if you read genesis, for instance, you'll notice that there are two versions of the story of earth's creation and noah's ark that completely contradict each other: this indicates the story has been related by two different authors). while there's no way of finding out what their original intent was, it's quite likely that many of these stories were intended as allegory and not to be taken at face value. as such, there are tons of rules in the bible that have been swept under the rug, while the christian community instead opts to place emphasis on a select few. for instance, leviticus states that one should never mix wool and linen garments. this was possibly due to pagans wearing clothing made of these materials at the time. a rule like this would not be relevant in our current culture. while the main ideas behind a religion, such as the figure being worshiped and how worship is performed, will remain the same, many aspects of the religion will adjust over time to suit the current culture.[/QUOTE] I see your point. Qur'an is a lot different than Bible, however. Qur'an doesn't have any other versions or an old testament, and it's not made by stories. It's written by Mohammad and his other "prophet" friends. He wrote down the verses and such (apparently Allah spoke to Mohammad and told him what to write down). But still, there is a lot of discriminative and violent verses in Qur'an. It's also the same in our daily life Qur'an, the same rules remain. They're enough for anyone to consider Islam to be a violent and discriminative religion.
[QUOTE=Absynth;36837332]I see your point. Qur'an is a lot different than Bible, however. Qur'an doesn't have any other versions or an old testament, and it's not made by stories. It's written by Mohammad and his other "prophet" friends. He wrote down the verses and such (apparently Allah spoke to Mohammad and told him what to write down). But still, there is a lot of discriminative and violent verses in Qur'an. It's also the same in our daily life Qur'an, the same rules remain. They're enough for anyone to consider Islam to be a violent and discriminative religion.[/QUOTE] Makes you wonder if Islam was never taken a big hold in the middle east, would Zoroastrianism will take over, since it was big during the Rise of Persia and during the wars with Greece/Macedonia. Would anything be different between the violence of Islam and this pagan religion? Also would Hinduism was violent as Islam when Islam has conflict between India/Hindustan?
It's an interesting debate. Religion has in my opinion has been too domineering in their regards to science by their constant attempts to answer scientific questions from the school of thought of faith. By the same token, science has strived so fiercely to discredit questions of faith with scientific research. I think it's important that both parties realise that they belong to different schools of thought and have different questions and methods. This in no way means that either is superior or lesser: just what they've always been, which is different. I can only answer from a Christian perspective but I believe organised religion was intended to give a structure that people could go to for help in life, much in the same way that people go to hospital if they're ill or hurt. Of course power, greed and hatred got in the way and personal agendas became the agenda of the church and ostracised the people in society it was supposed to help. I think more modern churches though are getting back to those original principles with some of the ones that actually do things in the community and genuinely help people rather than just take care of their own.
[QUOTE=lee-pat;36838792]It's an interesting debate. Religion has in my opinion has been too domineering in their regards to science by their constant attempts to answer scientific questions from the school of thought of faith. By the same token, science has strived so fiercely to discredit questions of faith with scientific research.[/QUOTE] the problem is that when religion first originated, it was attempting to approach questions we didn't have the education or technology to answer scientifically. after a few thousands of years of philosophy and science we have an incredible understanding of the world around us, and the explanations religions give for these events - for instance, creationism - are no longer useful to our society. while a lot of aspects of religion are outdated, i think a large part of the reason it's still supported is because of the ethics it teaches, which has shifted the focus of abrahamic religions today. many theists today have beliefs in god and science which exist side-by-side. while we have scientific evidence that a large part of the bible could not have happened, it's still possible to believe in the existence of a god in spite of this as we have no real way to disprove its existence. the problem arises when religious texts are taken at face value and the time period they are written in is not taken into account.
It existed at first to explain the unexplained, so in a way it was science in its earliest form, but later on people figured out the power religion can have over them, so they became popes, priests, rabbis, muslim priests, and used religion to rule over the people. They even got the dumb to fight their battles, to die simply to satisfy their kings. That is why anyone who said anything different got slain. New Age Science was a way to break down the walls and provide a real view of the world, of the truth. Some still require religion in their lives, and that is Ok as long as it's their beliefs, not beliefs forced into them.
Maybe people need something to believe in. Something beyond human understanding.
People are afraid of death, other peope realized that and used it to control them and get money.
Religion was created so that people could have something to believe in, to live by and to have a meaning in life. Life doesn't have a meaning, we are simply elvolved beings. Humans destroy planets like virus spreads in a human body, from body to body etc, we go from planet to planet, galaxy to galaxy. Yes indeed, it is simple.
[QUOTE=Michaeldf;36951094]Religion was created so that people could have something to believe in, to live by and to have a meaning in life. Life doesn't have a meaning, we are simply elvolved beings. Humans destroy planets like virus spreads in a human body, from body to body etc, we go from planet to planet, galaxy to galaxy. Yes indeed, it is simple.[/QUOTE] Last I checked we hadn't destroyed any planets
[QUOTE=Mr. Smartass;36951259]Last I checked we hadn't destroyed any planets[/QUOTE] Check again in 100-100000 years. It is obvious what we are doing to our planet. But that wasn't real point here. I am just saying that there is no real meaning, we are simply a creation of random events.
better question is why is this circlejerk still going anyone religious will have one answer to it, anyone atheist will have the polar opposite answer, the only way to 'debate' this would be to try to convert the other side and that's never going to happen either way
[QUOTE=Michaeldf;36951539]Check again in 100-100000 years. It is obvious what we are doing to our planet. But that wasn't real point here. I am just saying that there is no real meaning, we are simply a creation of random events.[/QUOTE] We're not a result of random events, please stop misrepresenting evolution. You're only making it easier for people who understand even less about it to attack it and dismiss it in their heads. [editline]27th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Michaeldf;36951094]Religion was created so that people could have something to believe in, to live by and to have a meaning in life. Life doesn't have a meaning, we are simply elvolved beings. Humans destroy planets like virus spreads in a human body, from body to body etc, we go from planet to planet, galaxy to galaxy. Yes indeed, it is simple.[/QUOTE] Life has meaning, and if you understood evolution you'd know what it is. psst, it's procreation [editline]27th July 2012[/editline] Let me properly explain evolution while I'm at it. Evolution isn't random because natural selection, the means by which evolution evolves species, is not random. Natural selection makes the most adapted specimen of a pool of randomly mutated specimen survive. The pool to select from is random. The selection is everything but.
I think it initially came about as a way for people to justify controlling others. Why should I do that? Oh God said so, why didn't you say?
I think the perspective most posters have is not the essential point of religion. Yes, of course, people can use it to control other people, but religion itself isn't "created", in the sense that some guy says "hey, I'm going to make a religion!" and 'creates' it (except with modern hoax-religions of course). Religion is something deeply rooted in man. If you analyze ancient religions you see an obvious projection of humanity on the world (anthropomorphism, gods talking human language, 'eternal' moral rules, etc.) However, even modern religions and some positions towards existence that claim to be not-religious have this sort of 'projection'. This projection helps people feeling more 'secure' towards the universe and existence itself, it gives them the feeling that "everything is figured out": God or whatever [B]has all the answers already[/B]. You just have to be good to God, do what he tells you to. (This is also why it is so 'exploitable': giving a person that feeling of security about life makes them more controllable.)
[QUOTE=matsta;36971919]I think the perspective most posters have is not the essential point of religion. Yes, of course, people can use it to control other people, but religion itself isn't "created", in the sense that some guy says "hey, I'm going to make a religion!" and 'creates' it (except with modern hoax-religions of course).[/QUOTE] You're wrong. Mohammad created Islam for his own personal purposes, for example. Profit. To gain wealth and fun.
[QUOTE=sonerin;36972075]You're wrong. Mohammad created Islam for his own personal purposes, for example. Profit. To gain wealth and fun.[/QUOTE] But that's just one part of it. A religion doesn't make itself from it creator but from the people who practice said religion. A religion is effectively "created" when it is absorbed as a practice by certain community. It's more of what I talked after that quote. An single man saying that he has figured everything out doesn't make a religion. For it to be a religion there needs to be people who believe that it is all figured out in that particular way, and that 'urge' to do so is part of us.
Not sure why religion exists today, except churches that do good for people struggling in developing countries. But as for modern folk in developed countries who would yell at their kids for simply not believing in God (almost like as if that held ANY meaning) it's simply stupidity at its stupidest.
Guys, another thing to debate about. Does religion makes a man rich with morals but poor in cash, financially?
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36974495]Not sure why religion exists today, except churches that do good for people struggling in developing countries. But as for modern folk in developed countries who would yell at their kids for simply not believing in God (almost like as if that held ANY meaning) it's simply stupidity at its stupidest.[/QUOTE] At a very basic level it still exists because people still want answers as to what happens after death. I understand clinging to beliefs like this because it does provide some level of comfort, but there are too many people who take it too seriously.
[QUOTE=Gekkosan;36974495]Not sure why religion exists today, except churches that do good for people struggling in developing countries. But as for modern folk in developed countries who would yell at their kids for simply not believing in God (almost like as if that held ANY meaning) it's simply stupidity at its stupidest.[/QUOTE] Religion still plays a massive role in 'developed' countries. A lot of local religious institutions like a local church or temple help form communities and usually host a few festivities. Religion is still used to give people a moral compass early in their lives and still use many of the principles that they learned when they were little that their parents taught them. Religion will be going obsolete any time soon.
[QUOTE=Ekalektik_1;36978448]At a very basic level it still exists because people still want answers as to what happens after death. I understand clinging to beliefs like this because it does provide some level of comfort, but there are too many people who take it too seriously.[/QUOTE] People still want answers as to what happens after death when "lately" biologists and doctors and other scientists have given so much information about it?
[QUOTE=BCell;36976613]Guys, another thing to debate about. Does religion makes a man rich with morals but poor in cash, financially?[/QUOTE] I think it would be the opposite Look at the Pope .. He is wealthy and i heard that he is an ass
[QUOTE=BCell;36976613]Guys, another thing to debate about. Does religion makes a man rich with morals but poor in cash, financially?[/QUOTE] Morality is not a product of religion.
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