• Religion : why does it exist ?
    792 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37607710]Ever heard of Tacitus? Josephus? The Pilate Stone that confirms that the mentioning of Pilates in the New Testament is legit? and many more...[/QUOTE] You do know Josephus was a forgery, right? That and an entire part of the bible doesn't make sense if Jesus existed. [editline]11th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=matsta;37610676]Sorry, but none of you have actually done what I told you in the comments. You always talk about people [I]now[/I]. In the comment you replied to I advised you to take a look at history, and that is what you should do if you want to refute my argument. I don't know if you've got [I]any[/I] historical conscience, so I must tell you that 2000+ years ago it was totally fine to wish death to your enemies and forget about the people who weren't citizens of your country/city-state/whatever. No, actually, that was what you [I]had[/I] to do. How could people have thought that it is ok to "turn the other cheek"? Why do you think that Christianism was considered so radical back then? Do you actually think that universal values were embraced back then? [editline]9th September 2012[/editline] I'm not saying that Christianism was the only thing that influenced our moral conceptions to they could be what they are now, but it had definitely some influence on shaping them this way. I'm actually surprised how people like Schnuggle think about Christianism while it isn't even close to that.[/QUOTE] But it wasn't radical. Jesus wasn't the first nor the last to propose these things.
Also matsta why do you say "Christianism" It sounds awkward, almost like me saying "Muslimism" or "Africanese" or "Americanish" [editline]10th September 2012[/editline] Just from the looks of it it almost seems as if you are trying to show some kind of disrespect to the group.
Christianism or Christianity, it's really a preference.
[QUOTE=Jookia;37621493]You do know Josephus was a forgery, right? That and an entire part of the bible doesn't make sense if Jesus existed. [/QUOTE] [citation needed] [QUOTE=Jookia;37621493] But it wasn't radical. Jesus wasn't the first nor the last to propose these things.[/QUOTE] Which things? The idea of the god of Abraham as all-loving, all-forgiving? Who else preached Jesus' message before Jesus (and no, "be nice" =/= Jesus' teachings)? [editline]11th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Jookia;37625178]Christianism or Christianity, it's really a preference.[/QUOTE] nope [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianism[/url] Christianism has meant a whole bunch of things but it's not a synonym for "Christianity".
Brainwave on Christianity. If it is reasonable to assume that one is not a human post-death.. Why is it reasonable to assume one would be judged on our performance 'as a human' whilst knowing that it was humans who even created the concepts of good and bad/ duality in the first place. The whole bible is full of polar opposites, literally describing and demonstrating the creation of separation and duality except it has been taken to blasphemous extremes by one priest or another by their over-complication and assumptions. I mean, in genesis, they eat from the 'tree of knowledge' which creates separation. The 'tree of life' is seen as the unity which is lost, which as they are the earliest teachings, should be the most important. Striving to recognize and regain this unity should be the point, except it's been totally shifted aside in favour of other stuff written by more and more people, and taken literally. Death is seen as the ultimate end, where one returns to God/unity.. It's true that whilst we are here living as humans, it is not possible to experience anything except the faintest glimmers of unity in our day-to-day lives due to our ego, knowledge and beliefs playing into our perception of the world (for every 'thing' we create, a concept of that exact 'thing' not existing is also created). Eastern religions take a more direct approach to the duality/unity as they recognized that it was humans that created this split, and thus it is a major concept explored as simplistically as possible. Hell, even the symbol of the Tao describes duality (Yin & Yang) and how we can only learn to expect both as humans. So really, I think religion exists because it all points towards the same message. Humans have overcomplicated everything in our search for deeper & deeper meanings. People spend lifetimes debating God or Jesus existence, instead of simply striving to be more like them (although their performances have been blown away significantly, making it almost impossible for anyone to ever relate or this to even be close to attaining).
[QUOTE=BoysLightUp;37627228][citation needed][/quote] [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#Testimonium_Flavianum[/url] The entire part of the bible not making sense refers to Paul's trial. You can find out more about the historical stuff about the bible [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX4LvKvIWJw]here[/url]. [QUOTE=BoysLightUp;37627228]Which things? The idea of the god of Abraham as all-loving, all-forgiving? Who else preached Jesus' message before Jesus (and no, "be nice" =/= Jesus' teachings)?[/QUOTE] Oh my bad, I thought we were talking about our morals.
[QUOTE=Jookia;37621493]You do know Josephus was a forgery, right? [/QUOTE] First of all. Facts? Second. Josephus isn't the only mention of Christ in history.
Reasons religion exists: Ignorance (primarily about how the world works and science) Arrogance (the want to feel superior and/or entitled) Fear of mortality An emotional crutch and/or driving force for the human mentality To control, indoctrinate, and/or trick others
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37628780]First of all. Facts?[/QUOTE] Look above. [QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37628780]Second. Josephus isn't the only mention of Christ in history.[/QUOTE] Well I guess it's a good thing I didn't say that then, I'd look like an idiot!
So basically if the above is what you think and you have no fact or argument to give whatsoever, then you have nothing other than a huge generalist prejudice about religion. That is your problem and not of religious people itself. If you want to become deeply entrenched in your views, go ahead. I came here, showed my point of view, people asked me questions, I answered and argumented as best as I could. I'm not about to enter a bible bashing shitstorm.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37630686]So basically if the above is what you think and you have no fact or argument to give whatsoever, then you have nothing other than a huge generalist prejudice about religion. That is your problem and not of religious people itself. If you want to become deeply entrenched in your views, go ahead. I came here, showed my point of view, people asked me questions, I answered and argumented as best as I could. I'm not about to enter a bible bashing shitstorm.[/QUOTE] What? Above I posted a link to Wikipedia and an hour long talk explaining my facts. What do you want?
[QUOTE=DeathFang;37628801]Reasons religion exists: Ignorance (primarily about how the world works and science) Arrogance (the want to feel superior and/or entitled) Fear of mortality An emotional crutch and/or driving force for the human mentality To control, indoctrinate, and/or trick others[/QUOTE] I see you seem to think religion is to control people Explain why I make choices separate from the influence of a corrupt hierarchial religous system despite believing in the same god they do You seem to think that religous people are ignorant of science. Explain why countless scientists in history have spiritual beliefs You seem to think that religion is tied with people's arrogance Explain how you're not being arrogant in making that statement
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37638979]Explain why countless scientists in history have spiritual beliefs[/QUOTE] Ignorance.
Religion exists so we can have stupid debates like this.
[QUOTE=DEG_fan;37639159]Religion exists so we can have stupid debates like this.[/QUOTE] +Zing [editline]12th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Jookia;37639072]Ignorance.[/QUOTE] And yet these scientists have discovered things like genetic patterns in reproduction (Gregor Mendel), and developed a theory of evolution (Darwin)? You yourself are ignorant of the fact that just because someone has some faith in something they are not immediately ignorant because of it.
I think religion was "created" and is so accepted across the world because of two things, the first is, the original reason why people "create" and believe in religion is to relieve themself from death angst.. every large religion in the world have some kind of afterlife or existance after death. Escaping and staying away from death is one of the strongest "instincts" in any animal. Evolution made it that way, animals who arent afraid or reluctant to death will not survive in the long run. The second reason is that people are born into it, they are raised by religious parents and relatives and therefor they are certain that it's right, I love how that is one of the strongest arguments against religion too, but thats for another thread. Anyway. That's just my simplified view on the subject.. sorry for any spelling errors.
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37645704]And yet these scientists have discovered things like genetic patterns in reproduction (Gregor Mendel), and developed a theory of evolution (Darwin)?[/QUOTE] This has no bearing on being ignorant. [QUOTE=BFG9000;37645704]You yourself are ignorant[/QUOTE] Good job attacking me rather than my points. [QUOTE=BFG9000;37645704]of the fact that just because someone has some faith in something they are not immediately ignorant because of it.[/QUOTE] Agreed. Which is why I didn't say that. I said that scientists had spiritual beliefs because of ignorance.
[QUOTE=Jookia;37647666]This has no bearing on being ignorant. Good job attacking me rather than my points. Agreed. Which is why I didn't say that. I said that scientists had spiritual beliefs because of ignorance.[/QUOTE] By "attacking you" I was trying to point out the irony of your statement. And me bringing up those people is perfectly relevant; they come from times where there were few scientific facts to ignore, and they themselves found things that religous fundamentalists ignore today. So I continue to not follow your logic about why scientists would be ignorant of facts they dont even know yet and then take it upon themselves to look for these facts. Just to restate, having religion DOES NOT mean you ignore the ways of the universe
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37649428]And me bringing up those people is perfectly relevant;[/QUOTE] I didn't say it wasn't relevant. [QUOTE=BFG9000;37649428]they come from times where there were few scientific facts to ignore, and they themselves found things that religous fundamentalists ignore today. So I continue to not follow your logic about why scientists would be ignorant of facts they dont even know yet and then take it upon themselves to look for these facts.[/quote Just to restate, having religion DOES NOT mean you ignore the ways of the universe[/QUOTE] Again, I said none of those things. Look up 'god of the gaps'. Newton thought planetary tugging was due to god.
[QUOTE=Jookia;37650644]I didn't say it wasn't relevant. Again, I said none of those things. Look up 'god of the gaps'. Newton thought planetary tugging was due to god.[/QUOTE] I've already heard But you see, back then the information of "planetary tugging" wasn't even available, so therefore Newton was ignoring nothing
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37651382]I've already heard But you see, back then the information of "planetary tugging" wasn't even available, so therefore Newton was ignoring nothing[/QUOTE] Ignorance doesn't mean ignoring, it means lack of knowledge.
For Jookia, believing in God is ignorance. For that point onward, there is nothing we can do. He's just being stubborn and deeply entrenched in his own views.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37653843]entrenched in his own views.[/QUOTE] Well thats what Massdebating is all about! In response to Jookia, OK, we'll use your definition. I Personally dont rely on my religion to explain how shit works, but rather as a sort of philosophical anchor of sorts.
[QUOTE]Explain why countless scientists in history have spiritual beliefs[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jookia;37639072]Ignorance.[/QUOTE] Well, then tell me, what [I]exactly[/I] does anyone need to know for rejecting a spiritual belief? (I'm not talking about [I]factual[/I] belief that can be given a spiritual meaning, I'm talking about actual spiritual beliefs, don't post any factual shit because I'm getting tired of repeating the same things all over.)
I've always seen Religion has some sort of crutch, not that it's a bad thing, just like someone who broke a leg, it's god damned stupid to tell the guy to deal with it and walk on a broken leg. But I've always seen Religion has some sort of crutch people can turn to in times of needs when they can't rely on themselves anymore or other people. Why does it exist though? I'm not entirely sure, maybe as some sort of secure haven in face of adversity and the unknown.
[QUOTE=Behemoth_PT;37653843]For Jookia, believing in God is ignorance. For that point onward, there is nothing we can do. He's just being stubborn and deeply entrenched in his own views.[/QUOTE] Attack me, ignore my points. GJ But really, believing in a god is not ignorance. Stop misrepresenting me. [QUOTE=BFG9000;37654313]In response to Jookia, OK, we'll use your definition. I Personally dont rely on my religion to explain how shit works, but rather as a sort of philosophical anchor of sorts.[/QUOTE] I'm all for that. [B]I'm not saying ignorance is the only reason people believe, I'm saying that it's usually ignorance for scientists, as they seek to explain the world, fall short then turn to the non-scientific approach.[/B] [QUOTE=matsta;37660200]Well, then tell me, what [I]exactly[/I] does anyone need to know for rejecting a spiritual belief? (I'm not talking about [I]factual[/I] belief that can be given a spiritual meaning, I'm talking about actual spiritual beliefs, don't post any factual shit because I'm getting tired of repeating the same things all over.)[/QUOTE] You talk as if people have to reject the beliefs, rather than accepting them. Personally I don't know what you'd need to reject spiritual beliefs, as I've never done that. I'd guess it'd depend on the belief in particular.
is not everyone ignorant? whether you are an atheist or believer?
[QUOTE=shackleford;37693111]is not everyone ignorant? whether you are an atheist or believer?[/QUOTE] No.
[QUOTE=Jookia;37660782][B]I'm not saying ignorance is the only reason people believe, I'm saying that it's usually ignorance for scientists, as they seek to explain the world, fall short then turn to the non-scientific approach.[/B][/QUOTE] Couldn't you have been that clear from the beginning? [QUOTE]You talk as if people have to reject the beliefs, rather than accepting them. Personally I don't know what you'd need to reject spiritual beliefs, as I've never done that. I'd guess it'd depend on the belief in particular.[/QUOTE] In most cases it is like that. People grow up not knowing anything and just accepting everything 'grown ups' tell them because uhmm ... it's generally a good thing to do... (e.g. "do no cross the road" to not get killed by cars, "don't go out alone at night" to not get raped/murdered and that sort of things.) Then they start questioning what they had innocently accepted before. Can you give me an example in which ignorance was the main responsible for the acceptance of [actual] spiritual beliefs? [editline]17th September 2012[/editline] I still believe that scientists that held spiritual beliefs don't do so because it allows them to explain certain things, but for the reasons everyone else holds spiritual beliefs.
[QUOTE=matsta;37707205]Couldn't you have been that clear from the beginning?[/QUOTE] I thought I was. The question was about scientists, was it not? [QUOTE=Jookia;37639072][QUOTE=BFG9000;37638979]Explain why countless scientists in history have spiritual beliefs[/QUOTE] Ignorance.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.