In my case, I'm christian. I do belive in God, jesus etc. But what I also do, is listen to other people, like Steven Hawkins etc. and see what they think. I also do not deny proven things. Mainly I always ask myself this, in the row like I set it right now.
Who/what made the earth?
Who/what made the thing that made the earth?
And I can continue like that. But also, what made the space? I still haven't got to another answer that a God must have done it.
AND ALSO:
I do agree that some religions, maybe most have made people do realy cruel things. I will NOT deny, that christianity also did cruel stuff, because they did.
Not to mention that another thing that I am realy dissapointed in, is this guy: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_Camping[/url]
And I also like to listen to people arguing about religion. It gives us more answers, and sometimes also more questions.
Uh well I'm religious and I see it as a way of having "answers" to things that are otherwise not yet explained, such as things like matter and anti-matter, how the universe was formed. Church is a meeting place, something people can use to talk about etc. be close without actually knowing one another. Though I'm really on the edge nowadays with all this Higgs-boson stuff going on, actually really excited to hear updates on that :dance:
[QUOTE=Persious;33856892]
Who/what made the earth?
Who/what made the thing that made the earth?
And I can continue like that. But also, what made the space? I still haven't got to another answer that a God must have done it.[/QUOTE]
(I'm assuming your questions have to do with the origin of the universe)
I understand where you and many others come from with these questions, but just because we have no answer right now, it doesn't mean we should attribute it to a supernatural figure. Also, what led you to the Christian faith in particular?
[QUOTE=Kymandu;33856899]Uh well I'm religious and I see it as a way of having "answers" to things that are otherwise not yet explained, such as things like matter and anti-matter, how the universe was formed. Church is a meeting place, something people can use to talk about etc. be close without actually knowing one another. Though I'm really on the edge nowadays with all this Higgs-boson stuff going on, actually really excited to hear updates on that :dance:[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it be better to remain neutral regarding those matters when there isn't any evidence or answers either way?
To rationalize the unknown.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;33856976](I'm assuming your questions have to do with the origin of the universe)
I understand where you and many others come from with these questions, but just because we have no answer right now, it doesn't mean we should attribute it to a supernatural figure. Also, what led you to the Christian faith in particular?[/QUOTE]
I'm definetly glad that you point out [b]"but just because we have no answer right now, it doesn't mean we should attribute it to a supernatural figure."[/b] - What is supernatural figure? We, the humans still need a lot of questions answered. Both inside the scientific category, and the religious category.
To be honest, my christian faith is mostly because of my country, my country got it's christian faith a long time ago, which then has led to my people being christians. But still talking about that, my dad is not christian. But you should not start saying that just because my family, country etc. are christians makes me not want to listen to scientific people. I do gladly and with open arms let you do what you want. I don't care if you call me a dumb ass because I'm christian. You're more than welcome. But I know, that we will sometime get more answers (And I also hope so) which can at least help us, again humans, know more about religion etc. Currently we are living in a big, big, huge space, which we still need millions of questions answered.
[editline]23rd December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Clementine;33857009]To rationalize the unknown.[/QUOTE]
And to answer your answer, give me a good reason not to belive in God? Seems like you're coming with pretty trolling answers, mate.
[editline]23rd December 2011[/editline]
Another thing, I'll have to get me some sleep :P
[QUOTE=Persious;33857019]I'm definetly glad that you point out [b]"but just because we have no answer right now, it doesn't mean we should attribute it to a supernatural figure."[/b] - What is supernatural figure? We, the humans still need a lot of questions answered. Both inside the scientific category, and the religious category.[/QUOTE]
We've always wanted answers to questions, but that doesn't mean we should readily accept every answer just to fill some void. What's stopping other religions, if any, from having the right answers? Questions don't have to be set within a scientific category and a religious category. Pope John Paul famously told scientists not to study the origin of the universe since it fell into the second category, but I don't think there are any arbitrary categories that stop science from answering questions thought to be spiritual.
[quote]
To be honest, my christian faith is mostly because of my country, my country got it's christian faith a long time ago, which then has led to my people being christians. But still talking about that, my dad is not christian. But you should not start saying that just because my family, country etc. are christians makes me not want to listen to scientific people. I do gladly and with open arms let you do what you want. I don't care if you call me a dumb ass because I'm christian. You're more than welcome. But I know, that we will sometime get more answers (And I also hope so) which can at least help us, again humans, know more about religion etc. Currently we are living in a big, big, huge space, which we still need millions of questions answered[/quote]
It would be fantastic if all Christians were as open as you are and I wouldn't press this matter further if we weren't in Mass Debate, so no offense is intended.
[quote]And to answer your answer, give me a good reason not to belive in God? Seems like you're coming with pretty trolling answers, mate.[/quote]
It's not fair to say that he's trolling. He's pretty much giving the same reason you gave. As for why I personally don't believe in God or any other gods, it's because there is no evidence. I was raised as a Christian myself and participated in its practices because of how I was taught to think and believe. In some cases, I was actually lied to about the evidence and taught all sorts of wacky things about creationism, dinosaurs, homosexuals, and the like. I know not all Christians behave in the way the Christians I knew did, but after pulling myself out of that mindset and seeing the evidence for what it really was, I couldn't find any way to justify the existence of God. Just as you don't believe in the gods of other religions, I don't believe in any of them because there is no evidence or reason to.
[QUOTE=Persious;33857019]
And to answer your answer, give me a good reason not to belive in God? Seems like you're coming with pretty trolling answers, mate.
[/QUOTE]
[url="http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/ig.htm"]Can you provide good reasons not to believe in Thor, Horus, Mithra, Baal, Zeus, Apollo or any other god?[/url].
But if you want reasons not to believe in the god of the bible, that can be provided anyway, the problem of evil is just one:
[quote]
If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
-Epicurus
[/quote]
[QUOTE=Noble;33857253][url="http://onegoodmove.org/fallacy/ig.htm"]Can you provide good reasons not to believe in Thor, Horus, Mithra, Baal, Zeus, Apollo or any other god?[/url].
But if you want reasons not to believe in the god of the bible, that can be provided anyway, the problem of evil is just one:[/QUOTE]
I believe it explained this in the bible. Forgot where, only read it partially once.
So depressed, snarky teenagers on the internet can have something else to bitch about.
Did someone actually say "Give me a good reason not to believe in God"?
That's the most cynical thing I've heard.
[QUOTE]If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.
If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.
If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?
If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?
-Epicurus[/QUOTE]
Has anyone actually rebutted this?
God is the same as a spoon or a fork. God is the same as Santa Claus. God is also the same as.. any other man made shit.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33858980]Has anyone actually rebutted this?[/QUOTE]
Most Christians I know say that he is able, but won't violate the free will of mankind in order to extinguish evil. This leads to a whole new debate about what free will is.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;33859125]Most Christians I know say that he is able, but won't violate the free will of mankind in order to extinguish evil. This leads to a whole new debate about what free will is.[/QUOTE]
But then why does he spend a good portion of the Bible wiping out humanity rather than let them have free will?
How about this. Make your own beliefs.
It's only you who chooses influence.
Religious era for humanity has passed. It still exists as a tradition, for some, they want to be assholes about it, but for the most part... we've got along.
I'm just slightly sad that people aren't ashamed for that atheist nativity thing.
[QUOTE=AK'z;33861170]How about this. Make your own beliefs.
It's only you who chooses influence.
Religious era for humanity has passed. It still exists as a tradition, for some, they want to be assholes about it, but for the most part... we've got along.
I'm just slightly sad that people aren't ashamed for that atheist nativity thing.[/QUOTE]
If politicians are still trying to ban abortion and stem cell research, or the pope telling [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7947460.stm"]African people not to use condoms to help stop the spread of HIV/AIDS[/url] because it violates their religious beliefs, then it's more than just a tradition, it's harmful to society.
Yes it is. It's not religion that needs to stop, it's the people. The power, the entity, whatever you want to call it, needs to die to leave just the words and traditions.
There are still quite a few things for some of us to learn about religiousness, or about being human.
I'm interested in the symbols, but why the church has so much power is beyond me. If it was just a wholesome traditional culture then it would be fine.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;33857086]We've always wanted answers to questions, but that doesn't mean we should readily accept every answer just to fill some void. What's stopping other religions, if any, from having the right answers? Questions don't have to be set within a scientific category and a religious category. Pope John Paul famously told scientists not to study the origin of the universe since it fell into the second category, but I don't think there are any arbitrary categories that stop science from answering questions thought to be spiritual.
It would be fantastic if all Christians were as open as you are and I wouldn't press this matter further if we weren't in Mass Debate, so no offense is intended.
It's not fair to say that he's trolling. He's pretty much giving the same reason you gave. As for why I personally don't believe in God or any other gods, it's because there is no evidence. I was raised as a Christian myself and participated in its practices because of how I was taught to think and believe. In some cases, I was actually lied to about the evidence and taught all sorts of wacky things about creationism, dinosaurs, homosexuals, and the like. I know not all Christians behave in the way the Christians I knew did, but after pulling myself out of that mindset and seeing the evidence for what it really was, I couldn't find any way to justify the existence of God. Just as you don't believe in the gods of other religions, I don't believe in any of them because there is no evidence or reason to.[/QUOTE]
I do appreciate your answer. And mainly why I called him trolling was because he answered with a short, mostly know answer, which he didn't explain anything about. If he could tell me why he tought his answer was right I'd definetly come up with a better answer.
[editline]23rd December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;33859125]Most Christians I know say that he is able, but won't violate the free will of mankind in order to extinguish evil. This leads to a whole new debate about what free will is.[/QUOTE]
Well, currently God doesn't direct us. We do the evil things ourselves.
Have I done cruel things? Yep.
Will I deny it? Nope.
I've made a lot of dumb things in my life, and I will continue doing it.
Another thing:
Am I afraid of death? Nope.
Am I afraid of dying? Damn yeah. I am realy fucking afraid of dying.
[QUOTE=Persious;33863394]
Well, currently God doesn't direct us. We do the evil things ourselves.
Have I done cruel things? Yep.
Will I deny it? Nope.
I've made a lot of dumb things in my life, and I will continue doing it.
Another thing:
Am I afraid of death? Nope.
Am I afraid of dying? Damn yeah. I am realy fucking afraid of dying.[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming you believe in original sin. God puts us in a world where people are born into sin, or at least have a 100% success rate of falling into sin, because of the actions of a distant ancestor. Doesn't really seem like a choice to me, even if the individual acts are committed willfully.
Also, I'd say I hold the opposite view regarding death. Dying itself doesn't really bother me as much as the concept of not being able to perceive anything anymore.
[QUOTE=Bean Shoot;33863642]I'm assuming you believe in original sin. God puts us in a world where people are born into sin, or at least have a 100% success rate of falling into sin, because of the actions of a distant ancestor. Doesn't really seem like a choice to me, even if the individual acts are committed willfully.
Also, I'd say I hold the opposite view regarding death. Dying itself doesn't really bother me as much as the concept of not being able to perceive anything anymore.[/QUOTE]
which in that case, even if god existed (which I think there is no good evidence to support that claim) i wouldn't worship that god. I'd rather die knowing I dissented against an immoral god.
[QUOTE=Persious;33863394]Well, currently God doesn't direct us. We do the evil things ourselves.
Have I done cruel things? Yep.
Will I deny it? Nope.
I've made a lot of dumb things in my life, and I will continue doing it.
Another thing:
Am I afraid of death? Nope.
Am I afraid of dying? Damn yeah. I am realy fucking afraid of dying.[/QUOTE]
So your God is not willing to prevent evil? Then I certainly would not call him benevolent. He doesn't prevent natural disasters (if he created the universe, surely it should be no problem), so again, not benevolent. And if he's a malevolent God, why worship him?
The idea of god seems unnecessarily subservient. You ought to be the master of your world, you ought the be the helmsman of the universe.
[QUOTE=Mvwill;33864439]You ought to be the master of your world, you ought the be the helmsman of the universe.[/QUOTE]
I take God to mean the opposite of the inner self.
Yes, meddling with definitions can annoy, but at least I'm making use of words rather than bashing them.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33864173]So your God is not willing to prevent evil? Then I certainly would not call him benevolent. He doesn't prevent natural disasters (if he created the universe, surely it should be no problem), so again, not benevolent. And if he's a malevolent God, why worship him?[/QUOTE]
Again, what we people have done to the world is dusgusting. We fucked it up, we ruined it, we did most things ourselves.
[editline]23rd December 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33864173]So your God is not willing to prevent evil? Then I certainly would not call him benevolent. He doesn't prevent natural disasters (if he created the universe, surely it should be no problem), so again, not benevolent. And if he's a malevolent God, why worship him?[/QUOTE]
Well, I realy can't answer that. I haven't seen God, I do not personaly know him. But it's our own fault that evil things are in our world.
Originally it's purpose was to bring people together into groups to form civilization, but it was rooted so deep in that we still use it even though it's unnecessary today
[QUOTE=Persious;33865253]Well, I realy can't answer that. I haven't seen God, I do not personaly know him.[/quote]
I haven't seen Thor or the Tooth Fairy either. Do you have evidence that they don't exist?
[QUOTE=Persious;33865253]But it's our own fault that evil things are in our world.[/QUOTE]
Nonsense, your god is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. He supposedly created us all, according to your religion, including all of our flaws such as the ability to do evil things. He is capable of intervening in the world according to the bible, is he not? If he has the power to stop evil (genocide/child rape) but doesn't, he is not a benevolent god.
Genesis of the world was quite a poor story it must be said.
[QUOTE=Noble;33865941]Nonsense, your god is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. He supposedly created us all, according to your religion, including all of our flaws such as the ability to do evil things. He is capable of intervening in the world according to the bible, is he not? If he has the power to stop evil (genocide/child rape) but doesn't, he is not a benevolent god.[/QUOTE]
And if he is able to intervene in the world (according to the Bible, this is possible) but chooses not to stop evil or disaster, then he is malevolent.
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