• Religion : why does it exist ?
    792 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Noble;33865941]I haven't seen Thor or the Tooth Fairy either. Do you have evidence that they don't exist? Nonsense, your god is supposed to be all powerful and all knowing. He supposedly created us all, according to your religion, including all of our flaws such as the ability to do evil things. He is capable of intervening in the world according to the bible, is he not? If he has the power to stop evil (genocide/child rape) but doesn't, he is not a benevolent god.[/QUOTE] He gave us a choice, which we denied. It seems like the humans want to have power, and want to rule. Sadly I can't answer every question. [editline]24th December 2011[/editline] Also, this is a pretty nice article, which should answer some questions: [url]http://conblogeration.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-doesnt-god-stop-evil.html[/url]
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33867716]And if he is able to intervene in the world (according to the Bible, this is possible) but chooses not to stop evil or disaster, then he is malevolent.[/QUOTE] wrong. that old epicurius line always comes up as some great truth, when anyone with a basic grasp of theology would see its flaws. one argument against is that god is not going to limit our existence. this includes the concept of free will. hence, god will not interfere with mankind's actions for that would be denying us free will, which is all important. instead, he has given us guidelines and shown us the way to live through his son, jesus christ. i have also recently seen a second argument in conjunction, in which it is stated that this physical world means nothing compared to life everlasting in the kingdom of god - hence, suffering in this world is of no consequence. therefore god is no malevolent, but loving - he would not deny us our free will or our world.
[QUOTE=Persious;33867753]He gave us a choice, which we denied. It seems like the humans want to have power, and want to rule. Sadly I can't answer every question. [editline]24th December 2011[/editline] Also, this is a pretty nice article, which should answer some questions: [url]http://conblogeration.blogspot.com/2008/03/why-doesnt-god-stop-evil.html[/url][/QUOTE] If he's omniscient (all knowing), he would have known that we were going to deny that choice. The fact that humans want to have power and to rule would be a consequence of imperfect design wouldn't it? He could have just created us without the desire to sin. I skimmed through the article, he doesn't take into account the fact that god directly intervened in Genesis, which would have been a violation of free will to sin. Also, if he wanted to simply forgive our sin why would he send his son on a suicide mission rather than just say "I forgive you."? [QUOTE=R3N3GADE;33868026]wrong. that old epicurius line always comes up as some great truth, when anyone with a basic grasp of theology would see its flaws. one argument against is that god is not going to limit our existence. this includes the concept of free will. hence, [b]god will not interfere with mankind's actions for that would be denying us free will[/b], which is all important. instead, he has given us guidelines and shown us the way to live through his son, jesus christ.[/QUOTE] Sodom and Gomorrah? Noah's flood? [quote]i have also recently seen a second argument in conjunction, in which it is stated that this physical world means nothing compared to life everlasting in the kingdom of god - hence, suffering in this world is of no consequence.[/quote] Oh okay, might as well do everyone a favor and kill off the world's population to speed up their journey to the glorious afterlife (that we have no evidence of it's existence at all). Too bad you couldn't be there during the Holocaust to reassure people that their family members being shoved into an oven to be burned alive was "of no consequence". Seriously, is this the level you're stooping to in order to defend your beliefs? [quote]therefore god is no malevolent, but loving - he would not deny us our free will or our world.[/quote] He sees child rape, he has the power to stop it, but does not stop it. That is not what a benevolent god would do. The bible already demonstrates that god has no problem intervening with the world.. check out all those parts where he is killing off humanity.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33864173]So your God is not willing to prevent evil? Then I certainly would not call him benevolent. He doesn't prevent natural disasters (if he created the universe, surely it should be no problem), so again, not benevolent. And if he's a malevolent God, why worship him?[/QUOTE] Malevolent or not, he still decides whether you go to heaven or hell. That seems like a good reason to worship him. [QUOTE=AK'z;33864638]I take God to mean the opposite of the inner self. Yes, meddling with definitions can annoy, but at least I'm making use of words rather than bashing them.[/QUOTE] What the fuck does this even mean?
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33868498]Malevolent or not, he still decides whether you go to heaven or hell. That seems like a good reason to worship him.[/QUOTE] No it isn't. It still has yet to be demonstrated that he even exists.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33868498] What the fuck does this even mean?[/QUOTE] I shouldn't be the one to make meaning out if it, it's your job.
[QUOTE=Noble;33868627]No it isn't. It still has yet to be demonstrated that he even exists.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that god exists or that you should worship him to 'play it safe', I'm just pointing out that "god is malevolent, so you shouldn't worship him" isn't really a sound argument. [editline]23rd December 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=AK'z;33868662]I shouldn't be the one to make meaning out if it, it's your job.[/QUOTE] No, it's your job to communicate your ideas in an effective way. Spewing out a bunch of vaguely wise-sounding pseudo-philosophical bullshit is not an effective way to communicate, and you don't get extra points for shrugging and say that it's 'up to the reader'. [QUOTE=AK'z;33864638]I take God to mean the opposite of the inner self. [/quote] Cool, what is the 'inner self'? What would the opposite be like? Why would the opposite of the 'inner self' be God, in spite of God's commonly accepted definition? [QUOTE=AK'z;33864638]Yes, meddling with definitions can annoy, but at least I'm making use of words rather than bashing them.[/QUOTE] So? Playing with definitions of words to fit your nebulously-defined spiritual philosophy is not an argument, that's just being confusing. Imagine if you were in a debate about the shape of the earth, and your opponent says - "No, the earth isn't flat, it's round, and here's all the evidence to support this", you are not making a valid argument when you say "Well I think that 'round' and 'flat' are the same thing". Second point, why is this behavior somehow more acceptable that "bashing (the words)". Do you mean we are bashing the concept of God? In which case, we should be free to do so, and it should be encouraged, because the concept of god makes no sense. Or are we bashing the word "God" itself? In which case, we haven't been bashing the word itself, and how the fuck do you bash a word anyway?
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33868737]I'm not saying that god exists or that you should worship him to 'play it safe', I'm just pointing out that "god is malevolent, so you shouldn't worship him" isn't really a sound argument.[/QUOTE] Ah, alright. I misunderstood your post
[QUOTE=Noble;33865941]I haven't seen Thor or the Tooth Fairy either. Do you have evidence that they don't exist?[/QUOTE] Proving tooth fairy DON'T exist? Well duh, it's made up by people I don't know how long ago, so yeah it does exist on some level to us. Other than that.. it's like God. Except God doesn't give money for your teeth, but is an incredible power instead. Both are very.. cool. Then there's also the Batman, which I personally like. But Thor I don't like.
I like carl jung
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33869569]Picking it out to point out that logic is.. wrong. Proving tooth fairies DON'T exist? Well duh, it's made up by people I don't know how long ago, so yeah it does exist on some level to us. Other than that.. it's like God. Except God doesn't give money for your teeth, but is an incredible power instead. Both are very.. cool. Then there's also the Batman, which I personally like. But Thor I don't like.[/QUOTE] What? Please reword that, I really do not understand a thing.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33868737] Cool, what is the 'inner self'? What would the opposite be like? Why would the opposite of the 'inner self' be God, in spite of God's commonly accepted definition? [/QUOTE] Okay, I'll accept the "Confusing communication" thing and move on. With that question, I've got a slightly confusing answer. The only reason I say that the word "God" can be interpreted in other ways than "a mighty unknown power that people submit to", is quite simple. We've already realised that this may probably be the only time we'll exist here. So therefore, why not relate to whatever someone feels about "God" but in a more personal relateable way? I've discussed this with people in the past, atheists mostly, some here, and one accepted that the mind itself could be percieved as god. Another said the sun could be. If you don't believe me, a standard among atheist talkers is "Pat Condell", although his methods of expression are slightly bold and harsh, he has a heart. What really matters here, isn't about the already created concepts, it's what people feel about life. Should we look down upon billions that have lived because they found joy that was percieved in their mind?
[QUOTE=R3N3GADE;33868026]wrong. that old epicurius line always comes up as some great truth, when anyone with a basic grasp of theology would see its flaws. one argument against is that god is not going to limit our existence. this includes the concept of free will. hence, god will not interfere with mankind's actions for that would be denying us free will, which is all important. instead, he has given us guidelines and shown us the way to live through his son, jesus christ. i have also recently seen a second argument in conjunction, in which it is stated that this physical world means nothing compared to life everlasting in the kingdom of god - hence, suffering in this world is of no consequence. therefore god is no malevolent, but loving - he would not deny us our free will or our world.[/QUOTE] Even if he cannot deny free will to do evil, why does he not prevent hurricanes or devastating earthquakes? He created this earth, surely he must know how to stop them. They aren't the result of 'evil', so your argument of denying people their free will falls out the window. What exactly does "deny us our world" mean? You really think if God stopped people getting killed by natural disasters that he would be 'denying' us something? That's akin to saying firefighters shouldn't put out fires because it would "deny the victims the consequences of their actions" or some equally nonsensical thing.
[QUOTE=Persious;33857019] And to answer your answer, give me a good reason not to belive in God? Seems like you're coming with pretty trolling answers, mate. [/QUOTE] What? Trolling answers? What I just said...what
[QUOTE=Scar;33869590]What? Please reword that, I really do not understand a thing.[/QUOTE] Tooth Fairy exists on the same level as God does. Same goes for Santa Claus too. And each of them has their own symbolic status or a meaning. But none of them is actually real, except that we've made them with our creative little brain. So, you asking for a proof that they DON'T exist is fucking stupid. But I assume you weren't even serious about it.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33875196]Tooth Fairy exists on the same level as God does. Same goes for Santa Claus too. And each of them has their own symbolic status or a meaning. But none of them is actually real, except that we've made them with our creative little brain. So, you asking for a proof that they DON'T exist is fucking stupid. But I assume you weren't even serious about it.[/QUOTE] Of course I wasn't serious. I used it as a comparison to people using "prove god doesn't exist" as a reason to believe in god as if he is a real entity. [QUOTE=Megafanx13;33871993]Even if he cannot deny free will to do evil, why does he not prevent hurricanes or devastating earthquakes? He created this earth, surely he must know how to stop them. They aren't the result of 'evil', so your argument of denying people their free will falls out the window. What exactly does "deny us our world" mean? You really think if God stopped people getting killed by natural disasters that he would be 'denying' us something? That's akin to saying firefighters shouldn't put out fires because it would "deny the victims the consequences of their actions" or some equally nonsensical thing.[/QUOTE] This isn't even to mention the fact that omniscience (gods ability to know everything) and what we know as free will are incompatible. If god exists in a realm outside of time where he can see the past, present, and future all at once, then your actions would already be predetermined. The logical form of this argument: [quote] God timelessly knows choice "C" that a human would claim to "make freely". If C is in the timeless realm, then it is now-necessary that C. If it is now-necessary that C, then C cannot be otherwise (this is the definition of “necessary”). That is, there are no actual "possibilities" due to predestination. If you cannot do otherwise when you act, you do not act freely (Principle of Alternate Possibilities) Therefore, when you do an act, you will not do it freely. [/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_free_will#.22God_is_outside_of_time.22[/url] So tl;dr version: if someone is going to argue that evil occurs as a result of free will, they'll have to explain how we have the ability to act freely given that god would already be aware (omniscience) of our future actions.
Evilness (and all the goodness and love :3) occurs because of people.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33876055]Evilness (and all the goodness and love :3) occurs because of people.[/QUOTE] We know that in reality evil occurs because of people, but the question is how does a religious person reconcile the fact that evil exists along with the existence of a benevolent god?
[QUOTE=Noble;33876095]We know that in reality evil occurs because of people, but the question is how does a religious person reconcile the fact that evil exists along with the existence of a benevolent god?[/QUOTE] He reconciles it so that God isn't concerned about us, the mere mortals that we are? I don't know.. anyway, again with the "God" like as if it's something more than just a creation of our mind, even to the most religious person.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33876709]He reconciles it so that God isn't concerned about us, the mere mortals that we are?[/QUOTE] Well according to the Bible, there were a number of humans God cared about, in the sense that he cared enough to communicate with them or otherwise interact with them. It's not reconciled at all.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;33877096]Well according to the Bible, there were a number of humans God cared about, in the sense that he cared enough to communicate with them or otherwise interact with them. It's not reconciled at all.[/QUOTE] Yeah they liked to believe God was concerned about them, even though God was never concerned. Almost like God didn't exist.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33877202]Yeah they liked to believe God was concerned about them, even though God was never concerned. Almost like God didn't exist.[/QUOTE] Right, that's exactly my point. According to the religious texts, God was perfectly fine with intervening in people's lives (immaculate conception, the flood and Noah's Ark, parting of the red sea by Moses, etc.), only now that we can record it and verify it has he decided to give it a rest. Funny how that works.
[QUOTE=AK'z;33869621]Okay, I'll accept the "Confusing communication" thing and move on. With that question, I've got a slightly confusing answer. The only reason I say that the word "God" can be interpreted in other ways than "a mighty unknown power that people submit to", is quite simple. We've already realised that this may probably be the only time we'll exist here. So therefore, why not relate to whatever someone feels about "God" but in a more personal relateable way? I've discussed this with people in the past, atheists mostly, some here, and one accepted that the mind itself could be percieved as god. Another said the sun could be. If you don't believe me, a standard among atheist talkers is "Pat Condell", although his methods of expression are slightly bold and harsh, he has a heart. What really matters here, isn't about the already created concepts, it's what people feel about life. Should we look down upon billions that have lived because they found joy that was percieved in their mind?[/QUOTE] Fair enough, I think.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;33875196]Tooth Fairy exists on the same level as God does. Same goes for Santa Claus too. And each of them has their own symbolic status or a meaning. But none of them is actually real, except that we've made them with our creative little brain. So, you asking for a proof that they DON'T exist is fucking stupid. But I assume you weren't even serious about it.[/QUOTE] Ahh, thanks for clearing that up, I wrote that at like 3am yesterday, sorry for the inconvenience
edit- i don't know, what inconvenience
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33877516]Fair enough, I think.[/QUOTE] You really mean it? :-)
No, he's just saying "Fuck this shit and fuck you too" I'm afraid.
[QUOTE=AK'z;33884368]You really mean it? :-)[/QUOTE] You know I mean it. Brohug?
Religion is a system of control designed by nobles and clever fellows way back in the day. Instills fear, keeps people in line, keeps people from questioning the despot. Just the way a leader would want it.
[QUOTE=LCBADs;33884754]You know I mean it. Brohug?[/QUOTE] Yes. :v: *manly bearhug in progress
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